I thought you guys might like to see this....

For me personally, this is why I do not believe in shooting yearling spikes. This amazing buck was shot by a good friend of mine. The buck was captured and tagged five years ago as a spike at age 1.5....during the spike study conducted by Dr. James Kroll in South Texas.

My friend shot the buck this past week at age 6.5....and he should score in the 180"-190" range. He would most certainly have been shot as a "cull" on many Texas ranches.

Beautiful deer!! Congrats to my friend!!

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
For some poeple, a yearling spike means more then a monster buck.

Preaching antler size ethics is as bad as preaching fair chase ethics..

I don't really understand what you mean by this....can you elaborate?

I'm not trying to preach any type of ethics here...

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my original post. Many people (Texas Parks & Wildlife included) advocate the shooting of yearling spikes as a method of "trophy management" because spikes are supposedly "inferior" deer. That simply is not the case.

If someone wants to shoot a spike for meat, or for a kid's first deer....there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But purely from a trophy management standpoint, it is not a wise decision to shoot any yearling buck (regardless of what his rack looks like).

Actually. We are trying to shoot just does at the moment to restore the buck to doe ratio we want for the farm. Unfortunately that means some button bucks inadvertently get taken as well. We are never happy about this but especially this year. There seems to have been a lot of late or second litter animals. when they blow by at mach 8 it is impossible to distinguish does from button bucks. The bucks had buttons so small you had to move the hair around to even find them. Until you flip them over and see if they have indoor or outdoor plumbing it is a bit of an unknown.

This is a dead horse issue. It is being played out on some other sites, and the results are the same. It has been proven over and over again, not all spikes have the potential of becoming trophies. Just like it has been proven over and over again, the mark of a trophy lies soley in the eyes/thoughts/desires lof the individual hunter.

The concept that "Everyone" wants to kill a "Muy Grande", while bringing lot of $$$$$ into Texas, has also forced lots of people out of deer hunting because of increased lease fees.

TP&W inspite of or contrary too what James Kroll says, has proven over and over again that not all spikes, even if the genetics are there, will grow up to be "Monsters" no matter how long the things live. They have also proven that energetic spikes can do a lot of BREEDING, which passes whatever negative genetic are in their system along to a lot of buck fawns annually.

I have killed and been in on the killing of known spike bucks that had been let walk for 3 or 4 years, and they never were anything more than a spike, and their offspring, that are now mature, breeding bucks carry that same spike antler configuration.

Letting a spike walk, under "Real World" management practices is like playing lotto. Why take the chance of letting something walk and start breeding that may not/probably will not reach true trophy standards. Claiming that "All" spike bucks are merely yearlings that need to be let walk, simply does not prove true in practice. What takes place on an intensively managed, several thousand acre low fence property is a world of difference than the management of several adjoing 100 to 500 acre parcels in area with high deer numbers.

You share a lot of good/interesting information with the folks on thi sight Wade, but you don't stop to realize that you are a priveledged individual as far as the places you hunt are concerned and you also lose sight of the fact that not everyone is interested in tape measure numbers.

To each their own, but no one has proven that ALL spikes grow into trophies, and TP&W, post the James Kroll era have proven that spikes are inferior bucks the vast majority of the time. With 4 million plus deer in Texas, I am going to stick with the philosophy that if it is 1.5 and a spike, it is dead. If it is 1.5 and a fork horn or a basket 6 or 8 pointer, it gets to walk for another year or so, and we feed protien year round, so if those potential "Trophy" genetics are going to manifest theselves, they will do so at 1.5.

I would be willing to bet that the owners of #26 understood what the quality of livestock he was bred from and gave him time to reach his potential

It is easy on a deer farm to know what to cull and what not to cull just like cattle.

It is a bit differant when your 100 acres is the only private ground in a couple of sections.

Myself, I would rather take a free range spike than a monster buck with an ear tag, but that is just my view. Sport? what sport? I will never understand that....

Before shooting your mouths off, like complete dumbasses, perhaps you should know whether the deer was free range or not?

That's a hint.......

A Stunner of a buck
no matter the height of the fence.

Incredible deer! Even on our small place, we will not shoot ANY 1.5 year-old buck. ANd no, we are not "trophy" hunters. We simply care about the long-term health of the herd and want to ensure there's at least a chance for the best genetics to be in place. But after a buck reaches 2.5 or 3.5 and is still a spike, he's wearing a bullseye.

It pays off, too, and of the 2011 crop, there is not a single spike that I am aware of. Those young 1.5 year-old bucks all sport at least 6 points, and a couple are 8s -- and I am just hoping that they are left alone by neighboring hunters as 2 of them are actually right at the 13" mark already, albeit with spindly little antlers.

from the original poster's comments regarding free range hunting and the two ear tags, I felt it was a safe assumption the buck was not free range. Am I mistaken? Maybe I am slow with hints. Where I hunt, anything with an ear tag would be considered livestock and off limits.

quote:

Where I hunt, anything with an ear tag would be considered livestock and off limits.

.........or part of a long term free range spike study, now completed as far as I know. The ear tag allows easy identification of your "subjects" in the field.

Thanks for the informative post. It provides good information for people who actually took the time to read it. It definitely makes me reconsider my stance on shooting immature spikes.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
from the original poster's comments regarding free range hunting and the two ear tags, I felt it was a safe assumption the buck was not free range. Am I mistaken? Maybe I am slow with hints. Where I hunt, anything with an ear tag would be considered livestock and off limits.

There are hundreds of free-range, wild big-game critters roaming around in many states that either sport ear tags or wear radio collars for research purposes. I bet there's even a bunch in Colorado.

And...it's also legal to shoot them if they meet the criteria for whatever game/season you're hunting. In most cases game depts. request that you return the radio collar to them. Sometimes, they request information in regard to tagged animals.

My apologies for not clearing this up in the original post...

Ted Thorn, p dog shooter, and skb....this was NOT a deer of known genetic quality. It was NOT purchased from a breeder. This was a 100% wild, native deer. The ear tags were placed in his ears when he was captured IN A WILD ENVIRONMENT at age 1.5. This is done with net guns from helicopters.

Crazyhorse,

Nobody ever said ALL spikes turn into trophies. That's absurd. Not even all 8 or 10 pt. yearlings turn into trophies. The bottom line is that true "trophy class" deer (for the sake of argument I will call these deer over 160") are RARE. It matters not what a deer looks like as a yearling. There is just no way to predict what a deer will be at maturity by judging his first set of antlers. You may have a 10 pt. yearling that only scores 140" at age 6.5....and then have a spike yearling that scores 190" at age 6.5 (similar to the buck above).

I am also calling "BS" on this statement you made

quote:

I have killed and been in on the killing of known spike bucks that had been let walk for 3 or 4 years, and they never were anything more than a spike, and their offspring, that are now mature, breeding bucks carry that same spike antler configuration.

Spike deer do not stay spike deer for 4 years. There are a few rare cases where this happens....but they are virtually non-existant. I don't know what deer you were looking at, but there is simply no way you had numerous bucks on a property that stayed spikes their entire lives.

I have hunted Whitetails for 20 years, and I have seen thousands of spikes. Out of all of these....I have seen exactly TWO that were older than 1.5 years old.

I have seen people who believe they are shooting multiple 3.5 and 4.5 year old spikes on their ranches every year. That is not the case, and these people simply do not know how to age deer. I was on a 1,300 acre lease in the Hill Country 2 years ago where the hunters shot 31 yearling spikes in one year. As required by the Texas MLD program....hunters were required to keep track of the ages of these deer. Of course, they pulled numbers out of their asses and wrote down all kinds of wild age guesses. I actually witnessed a gentleman write down "Age: 5.5" for a little 70 lb. pencil-necked spike that was obviously a yearling to anyone who knew the basics of deer aging. Needless to say, I got off that lease due to the piss poor management.

I did not mean to come across as if I were suggesting everyone should only hunt for trophy management.....not at all. I understand there are a variety of other reasons people hunt, and many do not care about trophy deer. That is perfectly fine, and I support those people and their choice to hunt however they wish.

However, there is a very large segment of the hunting populace that claims to be "management minded" and do their best to manage for trophy bucks on their property. These are the people this post was aimed at. Many of these people implement yearling spike slaughters as a "management tool" and think they are doing something good. The old "once a spike, always a spike" mentality is antiquated and just plain incorrect. What these people are actually doing is damaging the age-structure of their deer herd, and killing a lot of their trophy bucks before they have the opportunity to show their potential.

It is also a misconception that yearling deer do a lot of breeding. That may be the case if your buck:doe ratio is way out of whack....but if you have a balanced ratio (1:1), yearling deer (no matter the size of their rack) will do almost no breeding whatsoever. So, when that is the case....why not let that yearling spike walk and see what he is next year? He probably won't breed a single doe, and therefore it doesn't hurt anything to let him go another year. If he is still a spike at age 2.5....then by all means, shoot him. But as I said earlier, 2.5+ year old spikes are almost non-existent.

If anyone would like to read the spike study conducted by Dr. Kroll....you can read it here: http://www.deertv.tv/deerchann...ntlerdevelopment.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
For some poeple, a yearling spike means more then a monster buck.

Preaching antler size ethics is as bad as preaching fair chase ethics..

I don't really understand what you mean by this....can you elaborate?

I'm not trying to preach any type of ethics here...

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my original post. Many people (Texas Parks & Wildlife included) advocate the shooting of yearling spikes as a method of "trophy management" because spikes are supposedly "inferior" deer. That simply is not the case.

If someone wants to shoot a spike for meat, or for a kid's first deer....there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But purely from a trophy management standpoint, it is not a wise decision to shoot any yearling buck (regardless of what his rack looks like).

Wade,

I didn't read your first post right. Sorry about that.

I was just saying there are more hunters who don't manage/farm the deer they hunt and spikes taste great.

Once again, I don't mind hunting high fenced deer.

I will bet good money your buddy isn't going to get him mounted with the tag in his ear. I'm not talking trash, just sayin'....

Todd

No, obviously he's not going to get it mounted with the tag in it's ear. But as I stated in a post above, this was not a purchased or pen-raised deer. This deer was totally wild, native, and non-introduced....albeit on a large high fenced ranch of around 6,000 acres (I believe that's how large the property is, but don't hold me to it).

These deer were tagged during the study, after they had been shot with net guns out of a helicopter and data had been collected. The deer were released back to their environment soon after being tagged. They were not hand-reared by any means.

It seems like a very low number and a very "unofficial" ear tag
Looks just like a livestock marker

I have seen tags from Missouri's wild animal population and it is a lengthy number along with a telephone number to call upon finding or harvesting

quote:

.albeit on a large high fenced ranch of around 6,000 acres (I believe that's how large the property is, but don't hold me to it).

So is it wild or not. If it has a large high fence around it I would not consider it wild at all especially on only 6000 small little acres where you can manipulate the age and growth of a deer. My 2 cents and I know it everyone has their views on it so good luck. It is a nice deer and congrats to the shooter!

I'm not expert enough to be able to spot a deer trotting through the underbrush and determine "oh, he's not a 1.5yo, he's a 3.1yo", nor can I do antler measurements on the fly.
But, fwiw, when I moved to WV, there was a buck on the property that had a spindly 6 pts on one side and on the other he had a horn that looked like a cop's billie club about a foot long. I saw him off and on for several years and his antler configuration never seemed to change. I was determined to kill the freak but I never had a rifle in my hands when I'd see him.
Also, IMO, if someone has a 100 acre hunting lease that is surrounded by other leases, and he is trying to do any sort of antler management, he is pissing against the tide.

The high fence contributed to his ability to age....

Around here free range deer get shot and hit by cars

1/4 million Deer a year for Missouri

I will say up front that I take everything Kroll says with a grain of salt. I believe he manipulates situations to suit the outcome he desires. That being said, this is another case of him not being able to read his own chart, or expressly trying to sway the results with rhetoric and calling it science. His statement in the study results of "By 4.5 years of age there were no differences in any antler measurements regardless of the yearling antler point category (Table 1)." is a blatent lie about the results.

If one reads the ENTIRE chart instead of just what he wants, it concludes that the deer that started out as spikes are ALWAYS inferior as they age in regards to tine length, circumference and gross B&C score. They finally tie in numbers of tines at 4+ years and do provide for longer beams at that same age.

So if you want deer with statistically longer, but spindlier beams with shorter tines of a lower B&C score....let the spikes walk, otherwise shoot them as has always been the better overall practice, IF antlers are your main judgement of the deer.

For me it is a choice of whether I take a chance that the spike MAY develope better antlers or the better statistical probability that they will always be inferior and pass along those very genetics, at whatever age. Actually I shoot the does, but that is my intrepretation of the study.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
It seems like a very low number and a very "unofficial" ear tag
Looks just like a livestock marker

I have seen tags from Missouri's wild animal population and it is a lengthy number along with a telephone number to call upon finding or harvesting

That would be the difference between a game department program and a land owner's personal program. This was not on public land.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I will say up front that I take everything Kroll says with a grain of salt. I believe he manipulates situations to suit the outcome he desires. That being said, this is another case of him not being able to read his own chart, or expressly trying to sway the results with rhetoric and calling it science. His statement in the study results of "By 4.5 years of age there were no differences in any antler measurements regardless of the yearling antler point category (Table 1)." is a blatent lie about the results.

If one reads the ENTIRE chart instead of just what he wants, it concludes that the deer that started out as spikes are ALWAYS inferior as they age in regards to tine length, circumference and gross B&C score. They finally tie in numbers of tines at 4+ years and do provide for longer beams at that same age.

So if you want deer with statistically longer, but spindlier beams with shorter tines of a lower B&C score....let the spikes walk, otherwise shoot them as has always been the better overall practice, IF antlers are your main judgement of the deer.

For me it is a choice of whether I take a chance that the spike MAY develope better antlers or the better statistical probability that they will always be inferior and pass along those very genetics, at whatever age. Actually I shoot the does, but that is my intrepretation of the study.

I'm not sure which chart you're reading, but the chart below (taken from the paper) supports exactly what Kroll said in the quote you demonize him with. You also are calling him a blatant liar, and I'm sure he would resent that remark. Hell I do, and I don't even know the man personally.



What part of this chart above doesn't support Kroll's statement that "By 4.5 years of age there were no differences in any antler measurements regardless of the yearling antler point category (Table 1)"??

By the time the two groups of deer reached age 4.5....there was basically no difference in size. So are you saying you would kill bucks as yearling, because they might be late bloomers?? Why on earth would you do that?? Who cares what a buck looks like the first few years of his life....so long as he looks good at maturity??

Your post doesn't make sense to me Larry...

There are virtually no hunters who can tell the difference in a yearling spike and an older spike. Depending on "hunter judgment" to carry out a spike management program is foolishness.

Wade, look at the last three columns in particular. Tine length 4.5 years <3 points at 1.5 years = 91.9CM as opposed to 96.8CM for the >4points The >4 pointers "win". Circumference= 70.4 73.4 or 3CM MORE for the >4pointers, B&C score 306.8 vs. 314.7...which is more??? And this with the same number of points 9.0. I would say that people who care about B&C would care about the 8CM.

The same is true for >5.5 years. The beams are longer for the <3 croud, but a CM thinner.

Had he said they were within X% and that is close enough, I might have cut him some slack, but he says NO DIFFERENCE, which is BS. That is exactly what I mean by manipulating by rhetoric. His statement is a lie, or at best a half truth, which unless you are talking about whether those pants make your wife look fat, is still a lie.

Like I said, if you want deer that are going to STATISTICALLY have shorter times and less circumference and lower B&C, then don't shoot the spikes and let them breed. To me the last three measurements mean a heck of a lot more than the first three, IF you care about B&C. Which bucks have the higher B&C score Wade? If that is a measure, then the spikes are still inferior. Take out the late bloomers since they are still ultimately inferior, if you are into that sort of thing. Personally I shoot them all since I am a meat hunter.

quote:

Spike deer do not stay spike deer for 4 years. There are a few rare cases where this happens....but they are virtually non-existant. I don't know what deer you were looking at, but there is simply no way you had numerous bucks on a property that stayed spikes their entire lives.

I have hunted Whitetails for 20 years, and I have seen thousands of spikes. Out of all of these....I have seen exactly TWO that were older than 1.5 years old.

Wade, I will state three things:

When I was just a kid of eight or ten my late father hunted a place in Leon county, TX. If you are familiar with the state, Leon county is a high mast area with a fair amount of yaupon as well. Bucks had to have three points or better, and for several years he had to hunt very hard to find anything other than a spike. I distinctly remember him coming home talking about "gambling" that the long horned spikes he took would have "something long enough to hang a ring on" as a third point. (His scope was an old Weaver K3...)
He is gone now but several years ago I cleaned out his closet in the garage and it probably had 30 or 35 sets of antlers that were threes, fours and fives. Where were all the sixes, eights and tens? You don't think spikes breed spikes?

Secondly, 50 spikes a year over 20 years would equal one thousand... You claim to have seen "thousands" of spikes and only two were older than 1.5 years? Yeah, right. Sorry, guy, I have to throw the flag...

Finally, one of my friends killed a big seven point last weekend. It was chasing as he called it "a long horned spike" that was chasing a doe. What does that tell you? If you don't think a spike buck can fight off a multi-point buck you should spend a bit more time in the woods. Not only CAN it happen, it does...

With all due respect, I see your original post as one data point and you trying to make a blanket statement out of it. To me, it doesn't wash, and I have been deer hunting for over 40 years...

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
There are hundreds of free-range, wild big-game critters roaming around in many states that either sport ear tags or wear radio collars for research purposes. I bet there's even a bunch in Colorado.

And...it's also legal to shoot them if they meet the criteria for whatever game/season you're hunting. In most cases game depts. request that you return the radio collar to them. Sometimes, they request information in regard to tagged animals.

There are deer in CO that are collared and tagged. The guy with the Governers Tag shot one last year. Seems like a waste to shoot a deer that's collared under the premise of raising more money for the betterment of mule deer when the deer you shoot was involved in a research project

Sure you can...
You have to look at gross features... In my experience - the neck and belly tell you a whole lot.... but you gotta get past that itchy trigger finger....

If you see a deer with a massive, thick Linebacker neck, the Brahama bull hump on it's shoulder, and a nice grass belly.... you know it's not a young deer... no matter how large or small the rack....

On studies...

There have been plenty of studies that tell lots of important things....

Some studies hold all things equal - as in all deer sired by the same buck and doe, born around the same time of year, fed highly nutritious feed.... Those studies show that when you control for *EVERYTHING* else - the smaller yearling is going to be the smaller mature buck....

But... When in nature have you seen EVERYTHING controlled so tightly? You see 1 yearling born in March and 1 born in August... Which one do you think is going to have more horn on him the next November? Sure... Maybe.. the one that is a full 6 months older.. Maybe the one eating better/more feed..... but since they weren't born to the same buck and doe - you have no idea what that young guy will turn into in 4 years.... It's like walking into a random day care center looking at the "Walkers" classroom full of of 1.5 - 3 year old boys and trying to predict how big little Johnny will be vs little Eddie when they hit 21.... If you saw Mom and Dad - you might be able to take a swing... but not otherwise....

How about food... Deer around here tend to run smaller... because the soil just doesn't have the nutrients... That's not Genetics..... give them an unlimited supply of super high nutrient feed - and you see them blow up into significantly bigger deer.... It's not genetics... It's pine needles, bermuda grass, and bark taking it's toll....

Stress also massively affects racks... Put a buck under stress from dogs, too many people, or even from living in a herd with does - and they put on smaller racks... Even drought... A bad drought year will see bucks loose both inches, and points off their racks....

Then.. Studies have shown that MOST spike on one side deer are from injury - not genetics.... and you see a deer with 7 points on 1 side... well - he has 14 point genetics.... and the majority of them recover next year.... but the ones that don't are still because of permanent injury... not genetics

So.. Sure - yeah.. If you have a 4-year old spike... take him out if you want to shoot a 4-year old deer.... or a 6.5 year old with a spindly 6 point basket... sure - take him out (If you ever get a shot..) In those cases - you can pretty well see what that deer has in him....

but let the little guy walk....

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
He is gone now but several years ago I cleaned out his closet in the garage and it probably had 30 or 35 sets of antlers that were threes, fours and fives. Where were all the sixes, eights and tens?

That's what often happens when antler restrictions as far as points are put in place. It puts all the pressure on the age class that would otherwise grow to "sixes, eights and tens" while leaving all the spikes and little twos and threes to grow into those fours and fives. And the process continues ad infinitum.

The above is exactly why many states that tried this sort of point restriction management discontinued it after several years. On public land, it's about as fruitless as trying to cull "inferior genetics."

Some game departments often use a slot limit when managing a fishery. They protect the middle of the road size but allow the unlimited harvest of the smaller fish and perhaps a LIMITED number of the larger ones. This would probably work well for deer, too. The problem with it, though, is all the deer that might get popped by mistake that are in the slot. You can't release dead deer like you can fish caught live.

And...maybe your dad didn't care and normally shot the first legal buck that crossed his path, but I'm guessing it was more likely due to the above.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

There are deer in CO that are collared and tagged. The guy with the Governers Tag shot one last year. Seems like a waste to shoot a deer that's collared under the premise of raising more money for the betterment of mule deer when the deer you shoot was involved in a research project

Yeah, I know; I've covered many of CO's -- and other western states -- big-game research projects over the years in my IN THE FIELD column for Rocky Mt. Game & Fish magazine.

I tend to agree with you, considering the circumstances of the tag holder. But a lot would depend on the research, too. How long it's been ongoing, etc. IOW, has that deer served it's purpose and provided enough useful info over the time it was collared?

And...looking at the bigger picture, long-term aspects, the money spent to harvest that ONE buck will likely benefit a bunch of bucks somewhere down the road.

I'm leaving on my desert sheep hunt in a couple days. I can guarantee you that if I see a good ram sporting a collar, and I get the chance, I'm letting the air out of it. I will be sure to turn in the collar to the AZGFD, however.

While I normally hate to agree with Tony I do in this case. On the land I hunt in Northern Missouri, we used to see our share of bigger deer, 8s and 10s, but since the antler restrictions of at least 4 points on one side three years ago, we see mostly big 3s 4s and 6s. The meat locker said the buck quality was way down and opening day turn-ins were down 40%.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
While I normally hate to agree with Tony I do in this case.

It hurts for only a little while. Suck it up!

Another thing to think about in response to Grand-dad shooting deer with fewer points....

Remember that Soil testing and soil/crop/pasture nutrient management has come a LONG way since the 1950's - when it was in it's infancy....

Shoot - the late '40's were when the Ag scientists PROVED that major impact of Lime was added Calcium and Magnesium in deficient soils and that PH only had a small effect on crops... and it took YEARS for those findings to trickle down through the general knowledge into practice.... You really didn't see it hit till the 80's - and that's when we also started seeing BIGGER deer.....

Back in grand-daddy's day - FEW farmers amended their fields past Nitrogen once in a while..... Now - those guys are precision managing soil health.. and it's doing GIANT things for deer health and rack development....

Back in the day - most of the Ag soil in the USA was in poor shape... and that resulted in not only MANY weird nutritional problems with livestock - but it also resulted in stunted deer with little, bitty racks....

Once again.. It's not genetics - it's a wonder that Deer even survived....

Thanks

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Doubless:
He is gone now but several years ago I cleaned out his closet in the garage and it probably had 30 or 35 sets of antlers that were threes, fours and fives. Where were all the sixes, eights and tens?


That's what often happens when antler restrictions as far as points are put in place. It puts all the pressure on the age class that would otherwise grow to "sixes, eights and tens" while leaving all the spikes and little twos and threes to grow into those fours and fives. And the process continues ad infinitum.

Tony, my point was that there WERE no eights and tens. Everything they ever killed was a six or less, and they killed A LOT of spikes with a single brow tine...

I have met Dr. Kroll a few times as he is was a professor at my Alma Mater. I've spoken with him, listened to several of his lectures, and read quite a bit of his research. For the naysayers here I would ask, what are your credentials? Years of hunting deer on your local deer lease or public lands? Conclusions drawn thus are antidotal and not scientific at best.

I've never heard Dr. Kroll state that ALL spikes will grow to exceptional trophies. In fact, he consistently states that the AVERAGE deer wants to become a 120 to 130 inch deer at full maturity around 5.5 years. In fact, a decade long study he conducted on the King Ranch showed that only about 3 of every thousand will reach 150" of antler mass. So to take the OP's post to state that Dr. Kroll advocates ALL spikes will grow to exceptional dimensions is disingenuous. He is merely stating that a 1.5 year spike is not doomed to remain an inferior deer it's entire life. In fact, at 4.5 years of age, there really isn't much difference, TAKEN ON AVERAGE. Do some remain inferior all their lives? Yes. Do some become average? Yes, the majority do. Do some become exceptional? Yes. Overall what he says is that killing a 1.5 year old spike just because it's a spike is short sighted and you are only kidding yourself if you think doing so is improving your deer herd. Are there reasons for taking a young spike. Yea, sometimes. Some of those reasons were already mentioned such as letting a youngster take his first deer, among others.

For the naysayers that think you can't tell a deer's age, I ask, have you really tried to learn how? I ask this from experience. About 15 years ago, I was on a lease where a couple of us brought up the idea of letting the deer grow to maturity before harvesting. We got laughed out of the room and the typical deer taken on that ranch remained a forkhorn or 6, possibly an 8 point basket racked deer of 1.5 to 2.5 years old. I left that ranch shortly thereafter.

I tried the same thing on the next place and got the same reaction. However, I had a VHS tape that was about 1.5 hours long, which went to great lengths showing what to look for to determine a deer's age on the hoof. With a little effort, it really isn't hard to do. You may not be able to tell a 3.5 from a 4.5 but you can easily tell a 2.5 from a 5.5, I'll guarantee you. The hunters agreed to a penalty system whereby we would attempt to shoot only 5.5 year old bucks and larger. Anything younger incurred a fine of $100 per year under 5.5, aged by the teeth in the lower jaw. All monies collected went to improving the ranch house, deer stands, etc. There were a few hundreds collected that first year, fewer the next, and still fewer the following. One thing became very obvious within those first 3 years, and that was that the deer seen and harvested were of a much higher quality. And they improved each year we kept the ranch leased. And by the way, we did not shoot ANY spikes. Unfortunately, as so often happens here in TX with no public land and all hunting rights being leased ranches, the land owner raised the prices beyond what several of the guys were willing to pay and we lost the lease. Why did he raise rates so drastically? THE DEER ON THAT RANCH BECAME EXCEPTIONAL due to proper herd management. BTW, this was a low fence ranch!!

I've seen this scenario play out on two other ranches I've had leased since that first one discussed in the paragraph above. We went to the trouble of speaking with the adjacent ranch lease holders to attempt to get them on board with the 5.5 year program. Some were receptive and some were not. Obviously, if you let a 120" 2.5 year old walk and the neighbor shoots it, you haven't accomplished much. There isn't any guarantee that letting that promising 2.5 year old walk will allow it to grow and reach full potential at 5.5 years of age. But one thing is for certain, if YOU shoot him at 2.5, he'll never get the chance at all. So we let them walk. Some get shot by the neighbors but some don't. And we see the herd quality improve as a result. It would improve more and faster if all the neighbors would join in, but some improvement is better than none.

All this discussion is for the deer hunters that have an interest in herd management. I'm not talking about high fence AI operations. Those hold no interest for me whatsoever. I'm talking about low fenced, wild deer of which the ear tagged deer in the OP is one. So many of the posters here jumped on it being a high fenced deer without knowing the facts. Dr. Kroll has performed vast research on both low fence natural herds, high fenced natural herds, and high fenced AI herds. Personally, I find his low fenced research to be the most interesting as it shows what is possible when the only thing you control is at what age the deer is shot. The possible exception being that many will also supplement high protein feed throughout the year as well, but that is less common that one might think.

Again, if you are the type of deer hunter that fills his tag on opening weekend with the first legal buck you see, so be it. This discussion and Dr. Kroll's research is probably of not much interest to you. If you are interested in "hunting horns" and care about the herd dynamics, Dr. Kroll's research is of great value.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

Tony, my point was that there WERE no eights and tens. Everything they ever killed was a six or less, and they killed A LOT of spikes with a single brow tine...

And that's exactly how I interpreted it.

If you have a point minimum in place, hunters will generally shoot the first legal buck they see and not "bet on the come," so to speak. Thus, if all the pressure and kills are removing the very deer that would become eights and tens, you won't normally see many of the latter. The only ones left are the little ones that eventually become legal threes, fours and fives that also get shot on sight.

Going back to the fish example I gave. IF the agency said that an angler can keep the fish IN the slot, i.e. the equivalent of the three, four and five point deer -- but can't keep any of the smaller ones. The fishery would soon degrade as anglers start keeping the medium fish in the slot and also take out many of the larger fish above the slot. Eventually all that will be left is the smaller fish growing into the slot fish and being taken out. Fewer would last to get to the large fish size.

But as I said earlier, it is slot fish they protect, not vice-versa.

Now, if that seems not to address what YOU mean, please clarify it more.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Wade, look at the last three columns in particular. Tine length 4.5 years <3 points at 1.5 years = 91.9CM as opposed to 96.8CM for the >4points The >4 pointers "win". Circumference= 70.4 73.4 or 3CM MORE for the >4pointers, B&C score 306.8 vs. 314.7...which is more??? And this with the same number of points 9.0. I would say that people who care about B&C would care about the 8CM.

The same is true for >5.5 years. The beams are longer for the <3 croud, but a CM thinner.

Had he said they were within X% and that is close enough, I might have cut him some slack, but he says NO DIFFERENCE, which is BS. That is exactly what I mean by manipulating by rhetoric. His statement is a lie, or at best a half truth, which unless you are talking about whether those pants make your wife look fat, is still a lie.

Like I said, if you want deer that are going to STATISTICALLY have shorter times and less circumference and lower B&C, then don't shoot the spikes and let them breed. To me the last three measurements mean a heck of a lot more than the first three, IF you care about B&C. Which bucks have the higher B&C score Wade? If that is a measure, then the spikes are still inferior. Take out the late bloomers since they are still ultimately inferior, if you are into that sort of thing. Personally I shoot them all since I am a meat hunter.

Larry,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion....but I think you're splitting hairs. Let's be honest, a few CENTIMETERS of overall mass or a few CENTIMETERS of overall B&C score is such a small difference, it might as well be the same. (for those who have forgotten their conversion tables from high school, 1 inch = 2.54 centimeters).

At age 4.5, the chart shows a difference of only 7.9 cm (3.1 in). Are you telling me that if I were to take a photo of two bucks next to each other, one being a 145" buck and the other being 148"....that you could honestly tell me they were 3 inches apart??...and that the smaller one was somehow "inferior"?? Give me a break. I'm pretty damn good at estimating score on deer, and I'll admit right here and now that I would NOT be able to tell the difference. If you are good enough to tell, then kudos to you.

To be even more critical of your argument, I will go to the next year on the chart....age 5.5 (where many, including myself, believe that a buck is truly at his peak and at full maturity....both rack and body wise). At this point, the difference in score between the two samples was only 3.3 cm.....that's only 1.3 inches!! C'mon man!! That's basically the same....and to say otherwise is splitting hairs. Period.