Wade call on whateverr you want to, I haver been killing whitetails since 1970 and know what I have experienced, prove me wrong, you cannot do it, because you have not hunted everywhere in Texas. You want to call me a liar, that is your perogative. I know what I have experienced first hand, and I have seen plenty of bucks that were spikes at 1.5 and still spikes at 3.5 and older. If you can prove me wrong or that I am lying, please do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Wade call on whateverr you want to, I haver been killing whitetails since 1970 and know what I have experienced, prove me wrong, you cannot do it, because you have not hunted everywhere in Texas. You want to call me a liar, that is your perogative. I know what I have experienced first hand, and I have seen plenty of bucks that were spikes at 1.5 and still spikes at 3.5 and older. If you can prove me wrong or that I am lying, please do so.

crazy horse,

I did not mean to insinuate that you're a liar....because I do not believe that. I just have a hard time believing there are a substantial amount of bucks in one area that maintain spike antlers over the course of their entire lives.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

Spike deer do not stay spike deer for 4 years. There are a few rare cases where this happens....but they are virtually non-existant. I don't know what deer you were looking at, but there is simply no way you had numerous bucks on a property that stayed spikes their entire lives.

I have hunted Whitetails for 20 years, and I have seen thousands of spikes. Out of all of these....I have seen exactly TWO that were older than 1.5 years old.

Wade, I will state three things:

When I was just a kid of eight or ten my late father hunted a place in Leon county, TX. If you are familiar with the state, Leon county is a high mast area with a fair amount of yaupon as well. Bucks had to have three points or better, and for several years he had to hunt very hard to find anything other than a spike. I distinctly remember him coming home talking about "gambling" that the long horned spikes he took would have "something long enough to hang a ring on" as a third point. (His scope was an old Weaver K3...)
He is gone now but several years ago I cleaned out his closet in the garage and it probably had 30 or 35 sets of antlers that were threes, fours and fives. Where were all the sixes, eights and tens? You don't think spikes breed spikes?

Secondly, 50 spikes a year over 20 years would equal one thousand... You claim to have seen "thousands" of spikes and only two were older than 1.5 years? Yeah, right. Sorry, guy, I have to throw the flag...

Finally, one of my friends killed a big seven point last weekend. It was chasing as he called it "a long horned spike" that was chasing a doe. What does that tell you? If you don't think a spike buck can fight off a multi-point buck you should spend a bit more time in the woods. Not only CAN it happen, it does...

With all due respect, I see your original post as one data point and you trying to make a blanket statement out of it. To me, it doesn't wash, and I have been deer hunting for over 40 years...

You don't have to believe me, but I have nothing to gain by lying. Seeing 50 spikes in one year is not a rare thing for me. Hunting, land, and wildlife management is not only a hobby for me, but also my livelihood....and has been for some time. I visit A LOT of different properties and see A LOT of different deer. I've been on somewhere between 50 and 100 managed, high fenced ranches in my life....and countless low-fenced ranches.

I've grown up hunting in the Hill Country. In areas with high deer numbers, it's not uncommon to see 3 or 4 spikes at one location in a morning/evening hunt.....all youngsters. I just spent 8 days at my lease over the Thanksgiving holidays, and probably saw 20+ spikes during my stay.

The lease we are currently hunting is in Mason County. It is a 5,000 acre ranch (of which we lease 2,000 acres) where shooting yearling spikes is strictly prohibited....and this ranch has the highest concentration of quality, mature bucks of any low-fenced property I have seen in the Hill Country. I have already spent 21 days in the field this season, and have counted over 15 different bucks that were mature (4.5 years old or older).....two of which I killed myself (a 5.5 year old 11 point and a 6.5 year old cull buck that was a 4x2). Bottom line is, I spend a lot of time on ranches looking at deer.

Wade, you answered the question, you have been hunting deer in Texas for 20 years. myself along with others have been hunting deer in Texas for 40 or more years. My bet is also that you have never hunted on smaller acreages in north/northwest or east Texas. Just because you have not seen or experienced something, does not mean that others have not seen or experienced what they are talking about.

I am glad you have had the opportunities that you have had. problem is you probably have no point of reference of hunting an entire season and being happy if you saw a deer during that timem and totally ecstatic if you were able to kill the one buck you were allowed during that time.

People today get worried if they don't see a dozen or more deer everytime they get in their stand. When I got started I felt damn good about seeing ANY deer during the entire season.

If all properties statewide were intensively managed, there would still be animals with inferior genetics, whether spikes or small narrow basket racked 8 or 10 pointers or 5 pointers, that regardles of the extra protien being fed, that would not/will not grow into real trophy bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Wade, you answered the question, you have been hunting deer in Texas for 20 years. myself along with others have been hunting deer in Texas for 40 or more years. My bet is also that you have never hunted on smaller acreages in north/northwest or east Texas. Just because you have not seen or experienced something, does not mean that others have not seen or experienced what they are talking about.

I am glad you have had the opportunities that you have had. problem is you probably have no point of reference of hunting an entire season and being happy if you saw a deer during that timem and totally ecstatic if you were able to kill the one buck you were allowed during that time.

People today get worried if they don't see a dozen or more deer everytime they get in their stand. When I got started I felt damn good about seeing ANY deer during the entire season.

If all properties statewide were intensively managed, there would still be animals with inferior genetics, whether spikes or small narrow basket racked 8 or 10 pointers or 5 pointers, that regardles of the extra protien being fed, that would not/will not grow into real trophy bucks.

I'm not as privileged as you make me sound. I've done a lot of hunting in East Texas as well....which typically is not very good. I've been on several leases (earlier in my life) where we would see only a few deer each season. Actually, it's a miracle I'm still a deer hunter, after starting my hunting career as a young boy in the areas we hunted, where the deer populations were horribly sparse. The lease where I killed my very first deer was in Burleson County (near Caldwell)....and that little 5 pointer was the only buck we saw in 2 years.

Now, since the early years of my life....I have been blessed to be able to hunt on many great properties, and I appreciate it immensely. The only region of Texas I haven't hunted is far west Texas and far north Texas.

First of, what a deer! One day, I'd like to get a whitetail like that.

Second, I love how a post about a very interesting study with relevant results to deer management deteriorates into an argument about what who saw when. Back to the study, those who don't believe the study need to read a tad into statistics and P values.

Statistically, the deer in the study AVERAGE smaller in several catagories if they start out with 3 or fewer points, but the P values indicate that the difference, ie superiority of those with 4 or more points, is lacking in significance. Pick another set of deer and you could easily have it go the other way at 4 or 5 years old in most of those categories. I'd rather shoot a 4.5 or 5.5 year old buck regardless of how it started than a 1.5 year old because age is just as good a measure of a trophy as inches.

one side note, I begged my dad and best friend to shoot a 3x3 mulie this year in wyoming, both decline because he was a 3x3. I shot him at 15 yards after a 3/4 mile stalk, although not a high scoring or particularly wide buck, he had flat teeth and a bleached white face. amazing trophy he was, and I was proud to have beaten his age-honed senses.

I shoot yearlings to eat, they taste better than the old stinky ones. A spike will get wacked right away----- why? They are ususlly bigger than a doe, thus more to eat from my tag. I shoot does also-- good to eat.
I could care less what the horns look like 5 years later. I don't like someone telling me what I can or can not harvest with my tag. As long as I am hunting legally.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I shoot yearlings to eat, they taste better than the old stinky ones. A spike will get wacked right away----- why? They are ususlly bigger than a doe, thus more to eat from my tag. I shoot does also-- good to eat.
I could care less what the horns look like 5 years later. I don't like someone telling me what I can or can not harvest with my tag. As long as I am hunting legally.

Nobody is trying to tell you what you can or cannot kill with your tag...please read my posts.

I don't hunt Texas but I have been killing deer for over forty years, 26 of that with game and Fish in Alabama. I have killed 250+ deer, prolly seen several thousand fresh killed deer.

In all that I have seen exactly two 2.5 or older spike bucks. I killed one of those, he had 5" heavy spikes...

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
There are virtually no hunters who can tell the difference in a yearling spike and an older spike. Depending on "hunter judgment" to carry out a spike management program is foolishness.

horseshitt, it does require one to actually look at a deer before pulling the trigger but anyone that can't tell a 1.5 from a 3.5 year old deer needs new glasses....

What's BS about this and other forums is (for instance)

Last week there were 4 post with 4 young hunters involved

Did any of those post go 2 pages in one day? NO

Regular good time hunting has died here

RIP AR of the old days....I suppose FB really does rule

Regardless of what anyone believes, buck can ideed be spikes (or in this case, a 3-pointer)as they put on some age. This buck was 3.5 years old -- verified by both body conformation and tooth wear -- but is no longer in the gene pool...

Nice Buck!

No one here is saying that you shouldn't shoot older spikes.... Actually the opposite... The thing is - you can tell what an older deer has in him... He has had the chance to mature into whatever he is going to be....

All we are saying is that you just can't tell if that young spike is going to turn into.... Detailed studies bear this out.... just like you can't walk into a random day care center and look at 1.5 - 3 year old kids and tell what they are going to grow into when they are 21 or 25....

That's why it's important to learn how to age bucks on the hoof... because you can tell a 1.5 year old from a 4.5 year old.... even without the benefit of a big rack....

and if you just want a couple deer for the freezer.. Most places are absolutely over-run with does from years of poor herd management.... and they do need to be thinned out a bit....

Thanks

Wade, like I said, if he had used all the words you did like "difference of only" or "basically the same" I would have cut him some slack. If this had been an article for some hunting rag where no one expects full disclosure, I would have cut him some slack. Neither is the case. He stated in a supposed scientific document that there was no difference, period. Yes I am nit picking. Yes, I have been in the scientific community in the realm of statistics all my adult life. Yes SCIENTIFIC papers need to be just that, otherwise they make young niave people believe the untrue.

Let me put it in a way you can relate to. I come to Texas and buy a piece of land from you and tell you I will give you $357.40 (B&C gross score converted to dollars) per acre in commission. After I buy the acre, I give you $354.10 per acre. Did I lie to you by telling you they are really identical??? And oh by the way, they are really identical since they are really 1.08 euros different, right?

To say they are identical in a "scientific" paper is misleading and not true...period.

Let me extend it. Since the study lasted several years, how many of the inferiod deer were further products of allowing the spikes to breed rather than gaining the advantage, however small, of having better genetics? The bigger deer COULD have been even bigger, if you were to take out that 3.1" PER DEER AVERAGE in the first place.

But again, in my hunting world he would not have made it to 3.5 years anyway since the younger deer are not as tough and taste better.

No... You clearly don't get statistics or how experimental studies are done....

When you have 2 populations - "Identical" in actual science means you can't statistically differentiate between them.....

That's how we measure stuff in the real world - where there is plenty of variation within any given population.....

Even if you might have some small difference in the Average - when it's within the standard error of the test... those 2 populations are identical!

End of discussion.

I'm in Missouri, which may be different, but the majority of yearling spikes are late births from young does, which typically breed later. My brother pen-raised a number of deer, and we saw the same thing.

There are also some old spikes, but at least in my area, they are a rarity.

quote:

Originally posted by TruckJohn:
No... You clearly don't get statistics or how experimental studies are done....

When you have 2 populations - "Identical" in actual science means you can't statistically differentiate between them.....

That's how we measure stuff in the real world - where there is plenty of variation within any given population.....

Even if you might have some small difference in the Average - when it's within the standard error of the test... those 2 populations are identical!

End of discussion.

My sentiments exactly...

Am I missing something here? Since when is a deer with an ear tag on a high fenced ranch a "totally wild" deer? I am not a member of the "anti high fence moral police" but it would appear as if we are calling something it is not. This deer was raised in a controlled environment. He was not on his own trying to get increased antler growth by foraging on what the land gave him.

This is a beautiful deer and I am happy for everyone. However, it was not a "totally wild" deer and these controlled environment tests prove nothing except you can take a runt, feed him right, make sure no one picks on him while he is growing, and he will probably grow some "muscles". Heck, you feed him the right "proteins" and he will grow up to make the SCI whitetail "freak of the week" hall of fame.

Truckjohn, it is called a standard deviation. You obviously have no more experience in it than Wade. Been doing it for over 40 years and I'll take my experience. In the scientific world you would state that it is within X standard deviation if it was not identical, but I guess arguing with the clueless is pointless. Keep shooting the ever that is not the same and inferior if you want. No sweat off me since I would have shot them as spikes.

quote:

I have already spent 21 days in the field this season

And exactly how many spikes have you seen? I am not talking about bucks with pencil erasers sticking out of the knots on their heads, I am talking about true spikes.

And that 6.5 year old "4 X 2" you killed is one year past his prime... Just how many super bucks do you think he bred in his previous four years of activity?

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
Am I missing something here? Since when is a deer with an ear tag on a high fenced ranch a "totally wild" deer? I am not a member of the "anti high fence moral police" but it would appear as if we are calling something it is not. This deer was raised in a controlled environment. He was not on his own trying to get increased antler growth by foraging on what the land gave him.

This is a beautiful deer and I am happy for everyone. However, it was not a "totally wild" deer and these controlled environment tests prove nothing except you can take a runt, feed him right, make sure no one picks on him while he is growing, and he will probably grow some "muscles". Heck, you feed him the right "proteins" and he will grow up to make the SCI whitetail "freak of the week" hall of fame.

Sorry but you are incorrect on your assumptions. Much of Dr. Kroll's research, as with this deer, is done on low fence, free range properties. The buck was captured with a net gun fired from a helicopter. Not a pen raised deer. Not on a high fence ranch. Free range, captured, tagged, and released. Therefore a "totally wild" deer. Not raised in a controlled environment. Several years later, killed under free range, fair chase conditions.

That said, Dr. Kroll does do significant AI research as well. But not this deer from the OP.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
Am I missing something here? Since when is a deer with an ear tag on a high fenced ranch a "totally wild" deer? I am not a member of the "anti high fence moral police" but it would appear as if we are calling something it is not. This deer was raised in a controlled environment. He was not on his own trying to get increased antler growth by foraging on what the land gave him.

This is a beautiful deer and I am happy for everyone. However, it was not a "totally wild" deer and these controlled environment tests prove nothing except you can take a runt, feed him right, make sure no one picks on him while he is growing, and he will probably grow some "muscles". Heck, you feed him the right "proteins" and he will grow up to make the SCI whitetail "freak of the week" hall of fame.

Sorry but you are incorrect on your assumptions. Much of Dr. Kroll's research, as with this deer, is done on low fence, free range properties. The buck was captured with a net gun fired from a helicopter. Not a pen raised deer. Not on a high fence ranch. Free range, captured, tagged, and released. Therefore a "totally wild" deer. Not raised in a controlled environment. Several years later, killed under free range, fair chase conditions.

That said, Dr. Kroll does do significant AI research as well. But not this deer from the OP.

I get that this deer was killed on a "low fence" ranch. My question is are people saying that "free range" and "totally wild" are the same thing? How it it presented in the study? I would think that in a true scientific study, deer that are eating from random high protein feeders on some ranches would not be able to be compared on antler growth to deer that are not. Where is the control group in this study?

While that deer may not be from a high fence place, it is/was from a intesively managed larger tract of land. The King Ranch is low fenced, but intensively managed.

The "assumption" SFRanger7GP is making, is correct. Were it not for the management programs in place on many low fenced properties, there would not be any or a many big deer killed off of them as there are.

I have been deer hunting for a little while myself, and I have learned a fair amount about aging deer on the hoof and the effect of nutrition and age on antler growth and from experience with low fenced/free range deer on smaller acerage properties. First hand experience, even with fairly stringent management schemes and supplemental feeding of protien feeds, not EVERY buck is going to grow up to be a B&C candidate in real world situations.

If a person does not want to shoot spikes, MPTT, but after having personally killed or been in on the killing of 3.5 to 5.5 year old spikes, I will shoot one anytime the situation permits it.

We are ALL supposed to be supportive of each other against the forces that want to take hunting away from us, yet we openly criticize other hunters, even though what they are doing is perfectly legal. If TP&W believed that shooting spikes was detrimental to the overall health of the herd, it would be shut down.

It is pathetic, that hunters, doing something perfectly legal in the eyes of the law, are ostracized by the more elitist snobs who are only concerned about B&C scores.

quote:

Originally posted by TruckJohn:
No... You clearly don't get statistics or how experimental studies are done....

When you have 2 populations - "Identical" in actual science means you can't statistically differentiate between them.....

That's how we measure stuff in the real world - where there is plenty of variation within any given population.....

Even if you might have some small difference in the Average - when it's within the standard error of the test... those 2 populations are identical!

End of discussion.

THANK YOU!

Reading this thread kind of makes me wonder why anyone would want to start a new thread.

Eland Slayer posted a pic of a spike buck and of the same deer 5 years later with a beautiful set of antlers and stated his opinion that "For me personally, this is why I do not believe in shooting yearling spikes." In other words, heres some pics of a spike buck that grew into a beautiful 17? pointer.

Then a whole herd of arm chair quarterbacks flame him about it being a pen raised and fed deer, and about the ear tags.

So Wade replies that it was a wild deer that was caught, tagged, and released by Dr James Kroll in a 6000 high fenced ranch by Dr James Kroll.

Then more flames on the high fence, Dr Kroll and a deer study he did gets flamed, and Wade gets flamed on the number of spikes that he reported seeing.

Ok, I've never hunted deer in South Texas, but I have traveled through there, and in my opinion, one acre of that dense, thorny stuff provides more seclusion for deer than a square mile of the public land in Montana where I hunt totally free range deer.

So looking at that high fenced 6000 acre ranch, that's about 9 square miles with about a 12 mile perimeter fence. An average adult can walk about 3 miles per hour on relatively smooth, level ground, so under good conditions, could walk around the perimeter of that ranch in about 4 hours. There's a lot of country inside that fence that that deer lived in.

Then there were flames about the ear tags. Biologists are always studying game animals or transplanting them. Its what they do. And ear tags are part of those studies. Like Outdoor Writer posted, Colorado has a lot of deer and also elk, bighorn sheep, bears, etc wearing ear tags that are running around the woods, totally free range. So does Wyoming, Montana, and probably every other state that has a game department. Even Texas!

I guess some people just like to criticize, but don't all those flames contribute to global warming?

Nice pics Wade, thanks for posting them.

High fence is a controlled environment. Unless I am still missing something, this was not a free range deer that was subject to the harsh reality of a Texas drought/predators/traffic/hunting pressure/etc. Eland Slayer states it was released to a high fence ranch. Unless the owner put up a high fence to keep in his world record, high jumping cattle, the high fence is there for controlled management, along with feeders, etc. I never said the deer was pen raised or tame, I am not the anti high fence moral police and I am well aware how much terrain is on 6000ac. However, unless someone can point out the error of my logic, I don't believe the "spike weakling" grew into the buff, mature buck through luck and prayers. It requires proper, controlled management for the most part and I believe the study shows more what can be done through proper management than the errors of shooting spikes. Not trying to flame anyone or arm chair quarterback, just stating what I believe.

Regardless, the study is very interesting and the deer is beautiful. When we lived outside of Floresville, TX, we set up a feeder so we could watch deer from the back porch of the house on our totally free range, low fence, 10 acre spread. We watched several scraggly deer (even 2 spikes) appear to have benefitted from our additional feeding and watering. My Dad was going nuts over our "we don't shoot at you if you come to the house to eat" policy.

May everyone have a Safe and Merry Christmas and hope to see you in Dallas this January!

Larry

Here is a spike some of you might want to see:
http://www.muygrandevillage.co...%20Herber%20III.html
FFT;
Our game biologist says that on average a buck will effectively breed (spread his genes) to 2 to 3 doe a year, 2-1/2 doe per season to be exact. I am not sure as to what buck to doe ratio this applies to or if it matters.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
What's BS about this and other forums is (for instance)

Last week there were 4 post with 4 young hunters involved

Did any of those post go 2 pages in one day? NO

Regular good time hunting has died here

RIP AR of the old days....I suppose FB really does rule

Understood.....but how many "Atta boy" threads can one post "good job" or "congrats" or "way to go" on? Without a few controversial threads where men toss opinions around, the place would be boring as hell....I know because I belong to one like that and it's a snoozefest.

BuffyBR, my comments were not meant to flame anyone. Wade posts lots of good information and great pictures, was not meaning or trying to insult him in any way.

While James Kroll haa done a staggering amount of research and increased our knowledge about the physiology of white tail deer, that work/research has been done under intensively controlled conditions, whether high fenced or low fenced.

Some folks, and I am one of them, simply do not buy into, "Trophy Bucks Only" hunting.

One thing I have noticed over the past few years and it is what causes most of the problems/arguements concerning the hunting of white tail deer, is that the Trophy Hunters feel/believe that EVERYONE should adopt their beliefs, while those just wanting to hunt and kill deer, really do not care what anyone else wants to shoot a long as it is legal.

Before anyone comes back with, "I am not saying what anyone else should shoot, I just think this is a better way of doing business", you are lying to yourself.

If anyone really did not care what size deer someone else chose to shoot, discussions such as this would not happen.

I could also understand this if hunting in Texas was done primarily on Public Land, which it isn't, and if the deer herd in Texas did not number somewhere around 4 million animals.

If a person does not want to shoot spikes or yearlings or does, that is their business and I am happy for them. Just do not look down on me or anyone else that still believes ANY deer, regardless of sex or size is a QUALITY animal.

quote:

Originally posted by
If a person does not want to shoot spikes or yearlings or does, that is their business and I am happy for them. Just do not look down on me or anyone else that still believes ANY deer, regardless of sex or size is a QUALITY animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
BuffyBR, my comments were not meant to flame anyone. Wade posts lots of good information and great pictures, was not meaning or trying to insult him in any way.

While James Kroll haa done a staggering amount of research and increased our knowledge about the physiology of white tail deer, that work/research has been done under intensively controlled conditions, whether high fenced or low fenced.

Some folks, and I am one of them, simply do not buy into, "Trophy Bucks Only" hunting.

One thing I have noticed over the past few years and it is what causes most of the problems/arguements concerning the hunting of white tail deer, is that the Trophy Hunters feel/believe that EVERYONE should adopt their beliefs, while those just wanting to hunt and kill deer, really do not care what anyone else wants to shoot a long as it is legal.

Before anyone comes back with, "I am not saying what anyone else should shoot, I just think this is a better way of doing business", you are lying to yourself.

If anyone really did not care what size deer someone else chose to shoot, discussions such as this would not happen.

I could also understand this if hunting in Texas was done primarily on Public Land, which it isn't, and if the deer herd in Texas did not number somewhere around 4 million animals.

If a person does not want to shoot spikes or yearlings or does, that is their business and I am happy for them. Just do not look down on me or anyone else that still believes ANY deer, regardless of sex or size is a QUALITY animal.

C'mon Crazy Horse....that's not what I was insinuating and you know it. I was aiming this thread at a specific audience....namely the people who slaughter yearling spikes in the name of "trophy deer management". I do not care what you shoot. You can shoot every button buck on your property for all I care....I was simply trying to enlighten those who think they are improving their trophy deer herds by simply killing every yearling spike they see. That's all.

Wade, if I misundertood your intentions, that was my mistake. I simply viewed it as a case of promoting the concept that all yearling spikes, WILL group up to be Trophy Bucks and for that reason should not be shot anytime.

Whether you or anyone else agree with my statement you highlighted in red, what I stated is a fact. I have seen this arguement played out on too many internet forums. Each and everytime it boils down to the same fight, those hunters who only want to kill trophies want to force their concept of deer hunting down everyone else's throat, hence the reason why certain Texas counties/hunters have to live with the AR' and neighboring counties and the hunters in them don't.

Were it not the case that I have seen the effects of not culling spikes and not being allowed to shoot out older 4.5 and older culls, I would not be as opinionated on this subject as I am.

Also had I not seen first hand the attitudes some of todays hunters have toward other hunters, regardless of age or experience level, concerning the deer they choose to shoot, I would not be mentioning it, but I have seen it and it is wrong.

You are correct in that simply shooting all the spikes in an area will not improve the overall quality pof the deer herd in that area, but neither will letting all the spikes walk believing they will all grow into 150 class bucks.

Wade,
What are your thoughts on the 40 year study of spikes at the KWMA? I have studied it, it is pretty exhaustive and conclusive. They test there findings forward and back. I just can't see one deer and Dr. Deers study trumping that kind of data. From a largest antler potential focused deer program I just can't see leaving spikes in the herd, the evidence is too great.

That is a great buck!

Perry

Total side note...exit hole looks like a broadhead????

I could not control myself if that thing walked under one of my bow stands!

P

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Wade, if I misundertood your intentions, that was my mistake. I simply viewed it as a case of promoting the concept that all yearling spikes, WILL group up to be Trophy Bucks and for that reason should not be shot anytime.

Whether you or anyone else agree with my statement you highlighted in red, what I stated is a fact. I have seen this arguement played out on too many internet forums. Each and everytime it boils down to the same fight, those hunters who only want to kill trophies want to force their concept of deer hunting down everyone else's throat, hence the reason why certain Texas counties/hunters have to live with the AR' and neighboring counties and the hunters in them don't.

Were it not the case that I have seen the effects of not culling spikes and not being allowed to shoot out older 4.5 and older culls, I would not be as opinionated on this subject as I am.

Also had I not seen first hand the attitudes some of todays hunters have toward other hunters, regardless of age or experience level, concerning the deer they choose to shoot, I would not be mentioning it, but I have seen it and it is wrong.

You are correct in that simply shooting all the spikes in an area will not improve the overall quality pof the deer herd in that area, but neither will letting all the spikes walk believing they will all grow into 150 class bucks.

I do sympathize with those who have to deal with AR's (antler restrictions, for those who aren't familiar with the acronym).

I really should have been a little more clear in my original post, but I didn't intend to sound like I was "preaching" my beliefs of trophy management to everyone that hunts. I don't have any problem whatsoever with hunters who choose to harvest meat in any way they see fit. I also fully support kids shooting whatever their heart desires for their first deer.

CH.....you are 100% correct in your observation of how some groups of hunters feel the need to push their beliefs onto others. It's really a shame because we are all on the same side, and we have a hard enough time as it is battling the "dark side". We don't need to make things more difficult by bickering among each other.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Total side note...exit hole looks like a broadhead????

I could not control myself if that thing walked under one of my bow stands!

P

Yessir....it was an archery kill. My friend said he killed this buck on his 10th hunt in the same stand.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Wade,
What are your thoughts on the 40 year study of spikes at the KWMA? I have studied it, it is pretty exhaustive and conclusive. They test there findings forward and back. I just can't see one deer and Dr. Deers study trumping that kind of data. From a largest antler potential focused deer program I just can't see leaving spikes in the herd, the evidence is too great.

That is a great buck!

Perry

?????

Personally, I have no problem at all shooting a yearling spike. I hunt deer for the meat and the enjoyment I get from the hunt itself. I have never found a set of antlers that are edible. I found this buck 2 weeks ago and did not hesitate to take the shot. He is eating real good.



You can have the old bucks. I'll take a tasty spike or a doe any day of the week.

Wade,

I have the exhaustive study (168 pgs)and the abreviated (6 pgs)in pdf if you would like me to send them to you.

P

I attended a Hunter's Ed Instructor Workshop at the Kerr WMA a few years back, this was post Jame Kroll era. They took us around and showed us their facilities and during the workshop we attended seminar on aging and scoring deer along with herd management. In talking to other attendees, it was an eye opener, simply because the information that the biologists at the Kerr had accumulated, contradicted what many had taken as "The Gospel" in terms of proper deer management.

After attending that workshop I began paying more attention to the deer in the area I normally hunt. I have been additionally lucky in being able to work on a state of the art High Fence hunting/deer breeding operation for a few days and witnessing their management techniques. This was a 3300 acre property and they produce some huge deer.

While a yearling spike may or even does have the genetic make-up to grow into a real wall hanger, there is no guarantee that he will and from experience, especially over the past few years, many "Management" minded lease hunters, even though they eat/sleep/breath "Management" will knowingly let definite culls including older spikes walk for several seaons, believing those bucks will one day blossom into a 150 class Booner.

Does not seem to matter or register that they have been watching these bucks for 3 or 4 seasons, actively chasing and breeding does. Some of these bucks end up dying of old age, while all the buck fawns they sired keep showing up every season, same baic cull racks/poor genetics, and they keep siring little clones of themselves while the hunters get frustrated and move on to another lease somewhere else only to continut with the same "Management" schemes and end up with the same results, a limited number of actual trophy bucks and lots of never will be's.