Drummond, one last time, if a WHITE TAIL buck, not a MULEY, because muley's have different nutritional requirements than white tails, with the best genetics in the world, under minimal nutritional intake, produces a 140 or 150 class set of antlers, does not change the fact that the same buck being able to get the extra nutrition from supplemental feeding of protein, would grow a rack measuring 170 or more.

My not being a trophy hunter, has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact, that I do understand the mechanics involved in producing trophy class bucks, both Free Range and High Fence.

Also, whether you like it or not, I have just as much right to state my opinion on the subject as you or anyone else on this site.

My own personal beliefs or desires as they pertain to the game I choose to shoot, in no way effects the knowledge and experience I have accrued in regards to the production and management of trophy class or potential trophy class white tail bucks.


As far as Texas goes, there are the genetics to produce trophy class white tails in every county in Texas. The reasons why, not every county produces such trophies, revolve around deer not reaching maturity, too much competition for the available food sources, too many animals with clearly definable inferior genetics being allowed to breed during rut, little or no interest or attempts to provide supplemental feed stuffs, limited water sources, and sex ratios out of whack, all of the above contribute to bucks not reaching their genetic potential.

Just because any individual does not PERSONALLY wish to hunt trophies, that does not mean that they have no knowledge of how the process works.

Crazy, I'm not debating the benefits of good nutrition but would still rather hunt areas like Carrizo Springs in Dimmit county in a bad drought year rather than hunt my families ranch near New Braunfels in Comal County in a wet year. There ya go, a whitetail reference in Texas counties.

I should have known better than to reference another species of deer in states other that TX

Well Drummond, you seem to have taken exception to my having any kind of opinion about trophy deer management and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but from what I recall about this entire discussion, is that it was centered around white tail deer and the research of James Kroll, which if I am not to badly informed, primarily concerned white tail deer management.

My actual point, which seems to be either too simple minded or too complicated for some to grasp, is that from my personal experiences/observations and research, a spike yearling white tail deer, even one with superior genetics, rarely ever reaches the full potential of those genetics, on intensively managed properties.

Under normal free range conditions without the intensive management/feeding programs it is even rarer.

However, if under NORMAL free range conditions a 1.5 year old is a fork horn/4 pointer or has a small 6 point rack, that animal needs to be left alone. A 1.5 year old in the same pasture that is a spike, in my opinion, needs to be taken out.

He is the same age, has the same genetic background, getting the same amount/quality of nutrition, yet he is a spike, while the other buck, possibly even his twin, developed branched antlers.

I am not sure what is so difficult about that equation. On the properties I work on, a yearling that shows potential gets to live a while. To me, a spike does not show any potential, definitely not enough to leave it in the herd, HOPING it will turn into something.

Well Drummond, where are you at??????

You seem damn enthusiastic to point out that I should not have an opinion because I ain't a trophy hunter, but you have sure the hell clammed up when I started producing facts that I do understand the dynamics of managing for trophy animals.

At no point, have I said that genetics were not important. However, even with the best genetics available, if those deer CANNOT obtain the proper levels of nutrition,. They Will NOT Reach Their Genetic Potential.

Check James Kroll's research, he says the same damn thing. To produce a set of antlers that the animals genetics would produce, the animals have to have the levels of nutrition that will enable them to produce those antlers.

The exact same is true concerning fawn production from does. If does do not/cannot obtain a certain level of nutrition, they will not produce healthy/viable fawns.

Basic animal husbandry! The best genetics in a herd of domestic cattle will not amount to crap if the animals are not getting the proper amount of nutrition.

Genetics are important, but even the best genetics, be it domestic cattle or white tail deer, cannot/will not/do not matter if the animals with those genetics cannot obtain the necessary nutrition needed to give those genetics the boost they need to achieve the goals expected.

Crazy,

You're effing CRAZY! You start by telling us that you dont buy into Dr. Krolls research and actually go so far as to say that the man has DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD and then you try to quote the man to substiate the shit you come up with.

You are honest to God bat shit crazy

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I do not buy into Kroll's findings and actually believe he has done more harm than good as far as deer management on free range/low fence/non-intensively managed properties in Texas are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Kroll went private so he could have complete control over the methods being used and because he could conduct his research on properties where the deer could be intensively controlled/managed.

I do not have a problem with what he has done or how he has done it, my problem lies within some folks belief that his findings are the be all, end all of deer management, when from 40+ years experience hunting and studying white tails, they are not a blanket solution for deer management statewide, nation wide.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Check James Kroll's research, he says the same damn thing. To produce a set of antlers that the animals genetics would produce, the animals have to have the levels of nutrition that will enable them to produce those antlers.

Let me again quote you and AGAIN explain to you what I've been saying all along. You try to discredit Kroll again here by saing...

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You are a supporter of James Kroll and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. The bulk of Kroll's work has been done on intensively managed properties and not all of Texas is made up of intensively managed properties.

You go on to discuss genetics in the same post...

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
While genetics does play a major role in producing trophies, it is not the be all, end all, herd numbers and carrying capacity of the existing habitat play their part. Right now with conditions what they are over a large portion of the state, herd numbers and carrying capacity are going to play a bigger role in trophy quality than genetics, especially if range conditiond do not improve

What I have been trying to explain to you is that for me, as a TROPHY hunter, it starts and ends with genetics. The reason being Crazy, and please pay attention here, is because if everything else is in balance and range conditions are good you still will not kill the best deer possible if you dont have good genetics.

Nobody has said that the carrying capacity and range conditions dont play a part. They absolutely do but if you want to hunt the best deer in the world you have to go to the areas the have the genetics to produce the best deer in the world. There is no debating that. You have been talking about low fence free range animals with no control over how these animals are studied and I am talking about the same thing. We have no control over drought conditions. We have no control over Mother Nature whatsoever. What I do have control over is choosing where I hunt these low fence free range animals and I will pick the areas with the best genetics every single time


Now, go rant somewhere else. You are an absolute contradiction to yourself. On one hand you tell us that Kroll does more harm than good and on the other hand you tell me that if I dont believe you to look at what Kroll says. How can anybody have a constructive conversation with you? You should just stick to debating yourself you window licker

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
Crazy, I'm not debating the benefits of good nutrition but would still rather hunt areas like Carrizo Springs in Dimmit county in a bad drought year rather than hunt my families ranch near New Braunfels in Comal County in a wet year. There ya go, a whitetail reference in Texas counties.
:

Amen to that, Drummond!
And better yet around Catarina in Webb county.
You know the 11 protein feeders we have on 15,000 acres didn't help squat during last years ultral-bad drought. It's all about genetics (1st) AND natural nutrients which requires rainfall at the right time (2nd).

One last thing Crazy. Take your shot, I really dont care. Last word is yours big guy.

I genuinely feel stupider even trying to have a discussion with you. See there, "stupider" isnt even a word. My IQ is dropping with each response to you

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
Crazy, I'm not debating the benefits of good nutrition but would still rather hunt areas like Carrizo Springs in Dimmit county in a bad drought year rather than hunt my families ranch near New Braunfels in Comal County in a wet year. There ya go, a whitetail reference in Texas counties.
:

Amen to that, Drummond!
And better yet around Catarina in Webb county.
You know the 11 protein feeders we have on 15,000 acres didn't help squat during last years ultral-bad drought. It's all about genetics (1st) AND natural nutrients which requires rainfall at the right time (2nd).

Be prepared to enter a place you never should have entered; a "discussion" with Crazyhorseconsulting. Walk away while you still can

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
One last thing Crazy. Take your shot, I really dont care. Last word is yours big guy.

I genuinely feel stupider even trying to have a discussion with you. See there, "stupider" isnt even a word. My IQ is dropping with each response to you

Exactly the reason I gave up as well. A constant contradiction with every other statement.

Oh God!! What have I done now. I was away clean and enjoying the train wreck. I just put myself back on the train. Save me Drummond! All we need now is for Ray Ray to chime in!

Spending your ONLY tags on those rotten "Culls" so that everyone else in the forest gets a better hunt... So thoughtful of you....

No... We know the truth... Shooting a 1 year old 2 point because it was the only deer that walked out - then calling it "Culling" or "Improving Genetics" isn't really fooling anyone...

The whole thing about "Genetics" is that you just can't know what's there unless you let them grow up.... and that doesn't happen unless you DON'T shoot all the young bucks... and then you still won't see the true potential if Nutrition isn't there.....

Case in point.... Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota... 60 years ago - everyone said they suffered from "Poor Genetics"... because Grand-daddy hunted for 50 years and only ever saw spikes and 3 pointers.... Must be genetics... Right? Nope... Look at the pics in Field and Stream every year now showing MASSIVE 300+ lb deer and GIANT racks scoring 200+ inches.. Look at all the game camera pix that those of us down south drool over...

Where did those Genetics come from? They were already there! There was a TON of hunting pressure and not much going on with Agricultural nutrient management... Trust me - It wasn't Grand Dad passing on 8-point yearlings and "Culling" spikes... because he didn't pass on ANYTHING!!!

Same in Texas... Consider that the "Good Genetics" areas that Drummond is talking about in Texas - a 170" Whitetail is still something that gets you into the newspaper... and your "Average" mature white tail is round about 140-ish inches.... If you are getting shots at Mature deer - it's because they can get to 4.5+ years old in those areas...

Consider the fabled King Ranch with it's 100,000+ acres.... and Huge Deer.... Well.. Not really... Hunters PAY to shoot their BIG deer - not their average/inferior deer... They want the TOP 5% of the herd... Not the 6-year old, 120" deer... so when you see Hunting Shows talking about "Cull Bucks" - it's Older bucks in the bottom 50% rack size.... Why? Well.. Money... The ranch clients don't pay top prices for those deer in their hunts... TV Shows can get in there and film for free... The show doesn't have to pay the trophy fees.... and the Ranch clears some mouths off the table...

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by TruckJohn:
Consider the fabled King Ranch with it's 100,000+ acres.... and Huge Deer.... Thanks

Actually... the King Ranch, with it's four divisions, is somewhere around 820,000 acres.
I don't have a clue how much they lease for hunting and that number does not include their other holdings i.e. orchards, farms etc. 800,000+ acres is what is left of the original ranch.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
One last thing Crazy. Take your shot, I really dont care. Last word is yours big guy.

I genuinely feel stupider even trying to have a discussion with you. See there, "stupider" isnt even a word. My IQ is dropping with each response to you

SERENITY NOW! SERENITY NOW!

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
One last thing Crazy. Take your shot, I really dont care. Last word is yours big guy.

I genuinely feel stupider even trying to have a discussion with you. See there, "stupider" isnt even a word. My IQ is dropping with each response to you

I tried to tell you that a couple of weeks ago....

troy

The guy needs his own forum. “The world according to CrazyHorse”.

Everything to high fence hunts, shooting spikes, shooting over feeders, what’s wrong with California, how hunting was taken away in California, hunter's rights, how to hunt in Africa and what caliber to use...... Admission is free.

quote:

Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
The guy needs his own forum. “The world according to CrazyHorse”.

Everything to high fence hunts, shooting spikes, shooting over feeders, what’s wrong with California, how hunting was taken away in California, hunter's rights, how to hunt in Africa and what caliber to use...... Admission is free.

But enter at your own risk

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
The guy needs his own forum. “The world according to CrazyHorse”.

Everything to high fence hunts, shooting spikes, shooting over feeders, what’s wrong with California, how hunting was taken away in California, hunter's rights, how to hunt in Africa and what caliber to use...... Admission is free.

But enter at your own risk

Hell, no one needs to enter at all. He'll argue with himself by contradicting every other statement if no one takes him on! It's really just damn funny to watch. Here is my impression of him:

Ignore is a wonderful tool...

Such a wonderful group of people on this site. So many of you seem to think you know so much about me. Since most of Texas is Private Land, and since many landowners have established their own management programs, that work in spite of what some of you experts believe. I do not claim to be an expert, never have, never will. However, I do know what I have seen first hand and experienced first hand.

I also believe that since Texas Parks & Wildlife has set the rules and regulations for the entire state, which over much of the state includes special Antlerless/SPIKE seasons, that they have a better handle on the effects spike deer have on the deer population as a whole.

The rest of you are free to believe whatever you want too. I do think that those making the comments about the feeding of extra protein not making any difference should stop feeding protein altogether and see how that works out for you and your management program.

People that actually believe that managing only one segment of the deer herd anywhere, in this case just the Trophy Buck portion, are setting themselves and their program up for failure, especially when dealing with Free Range animals.

Wishing All the members of Accurate Reloading a Merry Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
The guy needs his own forum. “The world according to CrazyHorse”.

Everything to high fence hunts, shooting spikes, shooting over feeders, what’s wrong with California, how hunting was taken away in California, hunter's rights, how to hunt in Africa and what caliber to use...... Admission is free.

But enter at your own risk

Hell, no one needs to enter at all. He'll argue with himself by contradicting every other statement if no one takes him on! It's really just damn funny to watch. Here is my impression of him:

LOL