The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Too many elk, too few permits, what to do?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
505- OK. You said "Do you really believe that not charging someone to use your property limits your liability? If so, you are an idiot." Michigan Supreme Court- http://knol.google.com/k/land-...landowner-liability# Utah- "To encourage Utah farmers and ranchers to allow the public free use of the land for hunting and other recreational activities, the Utah Legislature has passed legislation protecting them. These laws have the effect of limiting he duty of care a landowner owes to a hunter or other outdoor recreationists (i.e., bird watchers, wildlife photographers, anglers, hikers, campers, etc.) providing no fee has been charged." http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE57/htm/57_14_000400.htm I don't have time to look up all states, but it goes to show that your "one size fits all" attitude doesn't work in all cases. You also said: "Ranches acquired, built and managed by men who spent there lives living the dream, refusing to take a handout from a government" I can not speak for all of Texas, but my friend in West Texas is on a 150 year old ranch. They have taken all kinds of grazing subsides, GIP monies, wool subsidies, etc... Just a quick search came up with this for the Kings Ranch in Tx--- http://www.agobservatory.org/h...nes.cfm?RefID=100741 Anyway, it does not make my life any better to argue with you. We see things differently and life goes on. I only hope we can enjoy our public lands system for years to come. If not, I will have to stick to our 700 acre ranch, but I will miss hunting and riding and enjoying the public lands we currently enjoy. | |||
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As best I can tell you are scared of high fences and I can respect that. If high fences are detrimental to wildlife in your state it is very easy for the state to curtail it. They allready have in many states. As for you being scared of neighborhood development I would imagine most of that would be in juxtipositoin of urban growth, or as crazyhorse spoke of in "prime" development areas. As for your arguement about these animals not doing well with human encrochment, I have been all over the mountian states and pretty much every place I have been except for down town areas has deer, elk, bears, moose, etc traveling and eating in their yards, right next to Fido. Private ownership has not ruined hunting in Texas. We have some of the largest ranches in the world, we have little bity ranchetes. We have damn near more game than what we know what to do with, and we just get more and more. We still have parks and WMA's that anyone is welcome to visit. One of the things that made the USA great wasn't the fact that the government owns a lot of land. Heck every country in the world has that. America became powerful because a man can own land. I think it would be great to put that in your reach again. | |||
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As I look out the window, I can see an 11,000' mountain which is FS land. The FS land runs down to about 5,500' where is abuts private lands- which of course is a solid line of homes built on .25 acres. So the deer, elk, sheep live on that mountain all summer, but then the mountain receives 15' of snow and the animals must migrate and winter lower. They get down to that line of homes and there is still 2 feet of snow there. They would come lower, but their range is fragmented and there is little chance of living in the neighborhoods. So they make the best of it punching through snow on the FS lands. IF that FS land was private you can bet there would be no where for those animals to go as the homes would be even higher up the hill. Just a side note, this particular herd of deer has dropped by 75%- from 10,000 to 2,500 in the past 15 years as developement increased. Habitat fragmentation and loss has a much different effect than many outside of the scenario can imagine. The mule deer I deal with are not the whitetails of TX. While you see the local deer (which never gets hunted) on the Street in a Western town, that is not the same animal as the buck living in the high country and migrating 100 miles to winter in a sage filled draw. The current lands are within the reach of anyone working hard enough to want such. Making the current public lands sellable would be great for you and I, but the generations in 50-100 years would loose the benefits I have experienced on public lands. | |||
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Sounds to me like if you made it affordable all those people packed next to each other on .25 acre lots could spread out and then the deer have plenty of space to travel and feed. People don't live on .25 acre tracts because that is what they desire. They live on property that small because either that is all that is made available or that is all they can afford. Dense populations of people are not good for deer movement, hence I am not feeding deer in front of my office right now. But making land private doesn't decide your population density. | |||
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Huh. So you do not believe in government owning land, but you believe in government telling you what to do with the land that you own. So the government (the people of the US) owns land that we all can use and benefit from, yet you want them (us) to sell the land to private parties who can then keep people off, BUT you then want the government to tell those landowners that they must preserve the land in its current state? Hmmmmm. I think I will pass. Yeah, those people might spread out on larger tracts (and they might not) today, but 100 years down the road those same lands will start to fill with homes. It is called vision and I am proud Pres Roosevelt started the great public lands preservation which I have enjoyed by living where I do. | |||
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Not so. I have swapped sweat for hunting, 30 years here in Tx. Working side by side with landowners you develop relationships, all have turned to friendships. I help out when other can't or won't and have NEVER paid to hunt. I am blessed to hunt almost 70k acres of private land for free. I can kill anything except trophy deer, but a lot of the "culls" I have shot are bigger than most people's trophies. These are large and small ranches, only one is high fenced. The smaller tracts have co-ops with their neighbors. They share info on animals and set up a management plan as a group. The results are a trophy quality herd that roams many ranches. Texans have realized the benefit of herd management and doing whatever it takes to maximize it's potential. this was just a dream 15 years ago amongst guys with smaller properties. Now the fruits are a reality. So I don't want to hear about herd fragmentation. you guys would just have to work together...not relying on the gov't. Perry | |||
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Well that's pretty much absolutely nothing I said. | |||
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Perry, I am in somewhat the same situation, problem is there are not enough places or landowners out there to work such deals with the numbers of people that want to hunt. For the average hunter, resident or non-resident, that wants to hunt in Texas it is pay to hunt, or not hunt. I know a few people that have gave up hunting because they can no longer afford it. Yes, there are opportunities out there to get on places to hunt for free, just not a whole bunch of them. Too many ranchers/landowners, have been burned by "good old" boys that were willing to trade work for the right to hunt, and then after getting the confidence of those folks to a level where they could be "trusted" to do things on their own, would shoot a trophy buck or bring other folks out to the places with them during the week and hunt the lease hunters stands. That stopped a lot of the "work to hunt" sweet heart deals. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Perry, these guys are peasants, and they are bitter about it. They hate each other almost as much as they hate the evil rich people back home. How do you ever gt them to work together, they can't even talk to other people. | |||
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Obviously, you know nothing about elk or mule deer. Obviously, you know nothing about the Rocky Mountain West. We have winter here, real winter. These animals have to migrate to stay alive. Elk and deer don't do well in 3 feet of snow. Just when I think you can't be more of an idiot, you prove us all wrong with a statement like that one! We have a saying in these parts for people like you Stupiderthan you, "we don't give a damn how you do things back home." | |||
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You boys are good entertainment anyway. I hope you all have a great season, shoot lots of whatever floats your boat and get to do it as often as you please. Take care boys.... | |||
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What the jist of the article was, to many elk in areas with no wolves and bears, both in Wyoming and Montana. To few elk in the western portions of both states where numbers of wolves and bears are high. Most G&F depts can't arbitrarliy give landowner permits with out legislative action. Lots of private land, and over populations of game, give the rancher or farmer a few permits that he can do with whatever he pleases, in exchange for limited public access. | |||
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SMarterthanu, Your lordship, I really doubt that anyone taking part in this discussion is a peasant, or a pheasant either. Hell, none of us know what or who you are. You don't seem to have any real working knowledge of the outdoors in Texas or any other place for that matter. You have no concept that if it wasn't for the Public Lands you think should be sold, there would be far fewer game animals across much of the U.S. than there are today You seem to have no clue that hunters have become a minority when it comes to using public land. They are having to deal with skiers/snow mobilers/back packers/fishermen/folks driving 4 wheelers/horse back riders and lets not forget folks doing illegal farming activities. Also, don't forget the various anti-hunting/"Greenie" groups out there wanting to block everyone from using Public Land, especially hunters. You seem to have no knowledge of any of that, does your Ivory Tower or Palace only contain rose colored glass in the windows your highness. Many people from all walks of life have, over the years worked to see that there would be Public Lands available for the citizens of this country to use and see. The problem, was that over the years, no one gave any thought about setting up buffer zones around these lands to keep private individuals from buying up the land closely bordering the Public Lands and then locking other folks out. That is nothing any of the peasants you look down had any say so in. It has not been that long ago, that some politicians considered trying to close some of the Public Land in the west and selling it off. You can damn well bet, that if the goverment decided to sell of any of our Publc Land, it would be a royalty like yourself or some large corporation, they damn sure would not break it up into 3 to 5 acre ranchetts and sell to think of people. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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So because TX is a giant state, you deserve to suck up other people's money becuase you're crappy businessmen? Someone from your state had the balls to write this...
You forgot to mention the part about all the $$$$ they take in government handouts for panhandling at their local NRCS office. You want to see where in Texas my Tax money is going?
That's BS. I can buy a deer, bear, lion, and elk license over the counter. It sure beats sitting in my elevated blind waiting for some deer to come to a feeder or food plot that I was forced to erect or plant because the marginal habitat is already being exploited by too many mouths to feed due to irresponsible management as well as increased competition for forage by species that belong in a zoo somewhere. I think if any of you own property, we should subdivide that stuff up so the rest of us here on the old forum can buy our 1 acre of heaven, then put our cabins on them in the name of increasing the quality and amount of wildlife habitat. The deer will just come a running in, I'm sure.... 
Perry, do you know how to read? | |||
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If you go back to page one-about the 6th or 7th post I told ya'll ol Moose_Drool would be along to tell us all how wonderful state game depts are.  SSR PS yall dont forget to close the gate. | |||
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You are a class A douche nozzle......and you know nothing. Peasants? Nice. | |||
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At least they are peasants that hunt. Can't say the same for you Norton. | |||
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Well that's %100 speculated BS | |||
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Tell me how private land stops migration. Do landowners staple up "Posted No Migration" Signs, and of course your elk that are so much different than ours can read those signs and know to stay away. If you haven't noticed in the west tens of thousands of elk pour into private land as sanctuary from the army of hunters on the public lands every year. By the way, animals migrate for many reasons besides snow. Our elk migrate also. Obviously you know nothing about the rocky mountian west and you live in it.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Anyone who lays around waiting for their master, in this case the Government, to maybe bless them with a chance to hunt something and is too scared to try something that might make their life better is just a beat down peasant. Its no different than those poor blacks in Zim that won't act in their best interest because they are scared ZANU won't give them sudza. | |||
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Farm subsidies have nothing to do with range land. The people taking advantage of these are not the ones who own land with the intent of improving a wildlife habitat, apples to oranges comparison. I totally agree with your statement about being crappy business men, the $ being sucked up is mine also. However, now when the argument fits you bring free market in to it. I back 0, zilch, nada, no gov't regulation. Hunting, Wall St., farming, welfare...NONE. Problem is you can not pick and choose with gov't. Once you let them in they will rape you and destroy everything they touch! Perry | |||
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There you go again, complete lack of knowledge, no factual or realistic concept about wildlife management. It shows again, that you have no real, tangible concept about wildlife or humans. Go to Zimbabwe and check out how much game or wildlife of any kind is left in the areas close to the cities, damn little if any. Ever read anything on here or seen any of the reports about "Bush Meat" in Africa, and I ain't talking about George W. here. Those folks are going out and poaching anything, and possibly anyone they can for the meat. If there were no game laws anywhere, and no control over the use by hunters of Public Land, there would be no game. Why not instead of running off at the mouth about things you have no working knowledge of, you do a little historical research to start out with. When Yellowstone N.P. was first set aside, one man, went in and damn near on his own , wiped out over half of the bison known to be in the park. Of course I figure someone of your maginificent intellect probably feels that the bison should have been exteriminated. The same thing took place with all of our major game animals here in America. Had it not been for Sportsmen/Conervationists, pressing the countries law makers over the years, there would be NO huntable populations of game, except on intensively managed Private Properties. I suppose that you would be happy with that also. Do you even hunt? Do you own a rifle? Have you ever even been outside of the Houston city limits? Some how I am beginning to believe that the answer to all 3 of those questions is no. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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One of Us |
moose stool, why don't you start a discussion on FARM SUBSIDIES, since that has nothing to do with wildlife management and almost all of the rural land in the State of Texas. But since you asked the question, Do some research on the very website you posted and you will find that farm subsidies are based on historic production rates, crop prices and capacity acreage. So it would make sense that if their is more farms, land and capacity in the State of Texas, it would consume a larger portion of the farm subsidies.
moose stool, did you even look at the website you posted, or did you just see something that condemned a state you hate and post it? If you would have taken approx. 5 seconds to look past your hate, you would have seen the stats that 81% of Farms collected no subsidies, and 10% of those that collected got 78% of the subsidies. And, the bottom 80% of those that collected subsidies coleected an average of $629, WTF are you gonna change with $629 So, you are passing judgement on a state based on what 19% of it's farmers have done? If you ask me, this just reenforces the argument that welfare attracts bums, which in turn means that government management and allocation of the resources of the citizens is doomed to failure. Welcome to the Texas way of thinking. | |||
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Once again someone posts something with nothing to do with what I said. By the way you may want to do a search for some of my hunt reports on here. | |||
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I would not believe your supposed reports any more than I do all the diatribe you have spilt forth in this discussion. Weren't you the one that advocated having All of the Public Land sold to private individuals? Weren't you the one that in declaring some of us as being peasants, because we would not take matters into our own hands and just go out and hunt with out doing it within the guidelines set forth by the goverment, any goverment. I would take that as meaning that you think poaching is A-OK. I believe you are also the one that does not believe poaching is stealing. If that is the caase, you must have wrote some really interesting hunting re[ports since it seems, thru your writing you don't believe in following game laws, or is some of the stuff you have spewed forth purely BS just to screw with people? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I beleive private management of game will consistantly outperform government over reach. And screwing with people who are barely qualified to dress themselves is fun sometimes also.  | |||
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CHC,you are arguing with a Troll.Everyone here knows he is a troll.Put him on ignore. | |||
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Don't do it Crazy, Don't listen to them. Mind your business OldDyke. | |||
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So someone that has a differing opinion than you is just a troll? That is a very childish position. | |||
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Moderator |
Note to all: Do me a favour and knock off the personal insults and profanity. | |||
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We were playing too loud and woke up daddy. Perry | |||
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You are right.You are just another asshole. | |||
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You could say that, and include pissing off the neighbors.  Regardless, I'd like to keep my whistle in my pocket and let the play go on, but some of you need to tone down the language and personal insults. | |||
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I read over and over on these forums how Texas is the greates state for hunting. What I would like one of the Texans to kindly explain to me is why do I see thousands and thousands of Texas license plates in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah etc... during hunting season? After all, it it was so great there, why are so many of them always hunting elsewhere? And they ain't all hunting trophy game. I've seen an awful lot of doe deer, doe antelope and cow elk loaded in the back of Texas trucks in my native Coloado. Can't they shoot doe deer in Texas if they're after meat cheaper than they can get one in another state? Why would anyone pay more than $250 for a tag to take a doe if they're from the greatest hunting location this side of Utopia? And, before the usual cries about Texas bashing come crashing down upon my head, let me publicly state I have a lot of friends from Texas. I have hunted with them in Colorado and I have hunted with them in Texas. I like them and have nothing against anyone from Texas. Something don't add up for this country boy. So, would one of the Texans on this froum please explain this disparity? | |||
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Looking at license plates is not a very effective way of doing statistics. I have hunted in many of those states you mention. Every now and then you branch out try some different areas, or different styles of hunting. Kind of like eating food. Just becasue you have a favorite doesn't mean you never try anything else. This is just my experience. I don't speak for all other Texans. You probably have a lot of different stories of why people would visit your state, but it doesn't mean Texas hunting is not as good. | |||
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I like how you say you are politically incorrect but you join forces with all the politically correct people here against the one person who really does have different politics. Yes, I am an A*!hole, but that's what politically correct tools typically call me. | |||
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This little discussion has taken many odd little twists and turns, this is yet another one. I have to agree with smarterthanu's statement. I hunt here in Texas as much as possible every year. Problem is Texas does not have readily available Public Elk or Mule Deer or Pronghorn or Moose or Caribou or Musk Ox or Bear hunting. That is the reason I have gone or go to other states to hunt. There are other species I plan on huntring for, such as Coues Deer, Texas ain't got any of those, so I am looking at Arizona. The only thing that has kept me from going back to Colorado for the past few years, is that since I retired, I don't have the funds, and Colorado keeps going up on the price of their licenses. All of my elk hunts were guided, and those have gone up in price along with the license fees. Between 1992 and 2005, I was able to afford to go elk hunting 9 times. Out of those 9 hunts, I killed 1 bull, and 6 cows, after I killed my bull in '97, I just went up there to do late season cow hunts, the tags were cheaper, the hunt was cheaper, and I did not have to stay up there so long. My first speed goat hunt was in Wyoming in 1993, I got drawn for a buck tag in the southwestern corner of the state and was advised that I could also obtain a pronghorn doe tag for I believe $25.00 at that time, so I did. From that hunt over Labor Day weekend in '93 I came back to Texas and hunted doves a few times, then back to Colorado to hunt the first week of the Second Elk Rifle season, then back home for the first weekend of deer season on a place in Montague County Texas, then worked three days, and went to the Sandhills region of Nebraska where I killed my first mule deer, then back home to finish out deer season here. Long, run-on sentence, but I have never had a problem going somewhere I wanted to hunt, especially if they had a species I could not readily hunt here in Texas. I love to hunt, and I am a collector, if being able to add another species to my list, means shooting a female, so be it, you can not eat horns. Also, while I firmly believe that the actual kill is the icing on the cake, during a hunt, I like icing a lot better than "Tag Soup". I know and have met lots of folks, from Texas that feel pretty much the same way, except they put more emphasis on trophy animals, which there is nothing wrong with that, but with me, personally, every animal or bird OI have ever killed, is/was a trophy in its own right, whether it was a javelina in west Texas or a Musk Ox above the Arctic Circle. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Just because we live in a great state for hunting doesn't mean we can not enjoy hunting elsewhere. This point seams awfully trivial, I hope this question was not serious. If you were serious, there are lots of reasons. Our seasons are so long we can afford, time wise, to leave to hunt other places. We also have lots of split seasons. Also being in a more temperate climate our good hunting usually fires up after other state's seasons have closed. We can hunt the western states in Sept/Oct/Nov for antelope, mule deer, moose and elk then be home for deer, goose, duck, sandhill crane, turkey, nilgai, hog, javelina, dove, quail, etc. Why do we have to hunt trophies??? When I have hunted off my beaten path I have been perfectly pleased to take doe/cow animals. I killed a cow elk with my bow and it is one of my best memories. Same holds true with my first nilgai, it was a cow and I was glad to take it. An axis deer doe was also a great hunt for me. I just love to hunt regardless of trophy class. Do you just hunt trophies? What classification do you use to determine trophy size? Do you think all hunters in Texas are only hunting trophies? Perry | |||
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