If an outfitter can make money selling buffalo hunts at "x" daily rate, why not sell a lion hunt at a lower daily rate but with a much higher trophy fee? That way hunters and PHs could much more selective and not feel pressured.

I discussed this with the PH with whom I hunted a few weeks ago and he thinks it is a great idea, esp in light of the fact that the new six year rule will cause PHs to be very conservative so they don't get spanked with a high fine.

Thoughts?

I personally think it is a good idea too. Andrew Baldry has been advocating this for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I personally think it is a good idea too. Andrew Baldry has been advocating this for a while.

Actually he has a slightly different approach. At lease for our upcoming hunt the day rate and trophy fee for Lion is not much different than you may expect elsewhere but if there is no success on a mature Lion (defined by Andrew and myself) then a rebate on a portion of the day rate essentially lowers the cost in the ballpark of a Leopard hunt.

I like this arrangement!! There is little pressure to shoot an immature Lion.

Not to disparage ANY ideas that protect young Lion in an attempt to assure the continuation of Lion hunting for future generations, but here's a radical idea:

How about those who want to hunt Lion learn something about them before they pick-up a rifle?

I know this might require some effort (the horror!) on their part, but as someone who has passed on PH recommended young Lion, I honestly believe the hunter bears a large degree of responsibility when hunting any species of DG (remember the pic of the dead and very obviously young Ele posted on AR not long ago?). It is, after all, the hunter who ultimately must make the final decision to take any animal and it is he/she who controls the trigger on any shot.

I know we hire a PH to provide us with the best possible information, but I don't believe that relives us of the ultimate responsibility. I expect that my PH and I will work as a team, with both of us bringing experience to the hunt. I can honestly say I have hunted with some PHs who knew less about firearms, ballistics, africa and DG game than I do.

I realize this is already accepted practice by most experienced african hands who post on AR, but we do get new folks here all the time who have yet to hunt africa and/or DG, and if it gives them pause for thought then that is all to the good.

Mike you are correct as well.

The LCTF with help from others...has been working on a definition of "the Huntable Male Lion". We hope to have it published soon on a website and have high hopes it will be endorsed by both SCI and DSC.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I personally think it is a good idea too. Andrew Baldry has been advocating this for a while.

Actually he has a slightly different approach. At lease for our upcoming hunt the day rate and trophy fee for Lion is not much different than you may expect elsewhere but if there is no success on a mature Lion (defined by Andrew and myself) then a rebate on a portion of the day rate essentially lowers the cost in the ballpark of a Leopard hunt.

I like this arrangement!! There is little pressure to shoot an immature Lion.

Yes Andrews way of pricing on Lion is an excellent idea and very fair.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Mike you are correct as well.

The LCTF with help from others...has been working on a definition of "the Huntable Male Lion". We hope to have it published soon on a website and have high hopes it will be endorsed by both SCI and DSC.

Will the data be geographically specific. In other words, will Zambia info be different than Tanzania info?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Mike you are correct as well.

The LCTF with help from others...has been working on a definition of "the Huntable Male Lion". We hope to have it published soon on a website and have high hopes it will be endorsed by both SCI and DSC.

Will the data be geographically specific. In other words, will Zambia info be different than Tanzania info?

I know this will draw controversy...but I will post it in a different thread.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Mike you are correct as well.

The LCTF with help from others...has been working on a definition of "the Huntable Male Lion". We hope to have it published soon on a website and have high hopes it will be endorsed by both SCI and DSC.

Will the data be geographically specific. In other words, will Zambia info be different than Tanzania info?

I know this will draw controversy...but I will post it in a different thread.

Not looking to draw any drama. I just want to have as much knowledge as possible as an Alaskan concerning Lion aging. 4 months and 6 days to go!!

Yep, in most cases it sounds like a great idea - right up until you're the guy who's actually PAYING to run/operate the gig!

AAW - I too know Tom, we spent lots of time together last week in Vegas. I guarantee you, he would have a whole different perspective, he if was the outfitter, rather than the PH. Try that in TZ, and the operators in most cases will go bankrupt!

"Fairgame" has 1 lion on quota, on a 30,000 acre piece of property. Nothing wrong with that at all, but comparing that to the running/operating cost of a major TZ hunting operation, operating 5-10 hunting blocks, etc, etc, etc. Is not a comparison at all!

Good idea though!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Yep, in most cases it sounds like a great idea - right up until you're the guy who's actually PAYING to run/operate the gig!

AAW - I too know Tom, we spent lots of time together last week in Vegas. I guarantee you, he would have a whole different perspective, he if was the outfitter, rather than the PH. Try that in TZ, and the operators in most cases will go bankrupt!

"Fairgame" has 1 lion on quota, on a 30,000 acre piece of property. Nothing wrong with that at all, but comparing that to the running/operating cost of a major TZ hunting operation, operating 5-10 hunting blocks, etc, etc, etc. Is not a comparison at all!

Good idea though!

I asked for one Lion in a 45,000 acre area. I am
in close proximity to the 27,000 km2 Kafue National Park which will be my feeder area. I am the operator and yes things will be very tight this year.

And your end I hear 17 safaris and one Lion shot? That is an awful lot of income for the purchase of one Lion tag.

Good idea though and I can now go and sell this hunt 16 times over?

Martin Pieters has also been advertising high trophy fees for Lion and lower daily rates.

Andrew,

The thing I like about you is that you have balls and always speak your mind!!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Yep, in most cases it sounds like a great idea - right up until you're the guy who's actually PAYING to run/operate the gig!

AAW - I too know Tom, we spent lots of time together last week in Vegas. I guarantee you, he would have a whole different perspective, he if was the outfitter, rather than the PH. Try that in TZ, and the operators in most cases will go bankrupt!

"Fairgame" has 1 lion on quota, on a 30,000 acre piece of property. Nothing wrong with that at all, but comparing that to the running/operating cost of a major TZ hunting operation, operating 5-10 hunting blocks, etc, etc, etc. Is not a comparison at all!

Good idea though!

I asked for one Lion in a 45,000 acre area. I am
in close proximity to the 27,000 km2 Kafue National Park which will be my feeder area. I am the operator and yes things will be very tight this year.

And your end I hear 17 safaris and one Lion shot? That is an awful lot of income for the purchase of one Lion tag.

Good idea though and I can now go and sell this hunt 16 times over?

Martin Pieters has also been advertising high trophy fees for Lion and lower daily rates.

Andrew - You and I have been buddies for along time, and we will continue to be so in the future.

Trust me, it will NOT work in most of TZ's areas - period! Take it for what you will!

Aaron,

For example there is a quite a difference between the pricing of a Leopard and a Lion hunt, but same daily routine same bottle of wine on the table. Therefore there are margins of profit that could be looked at as a refund or some compensation?

Totally agree and if the operator and area has a history of producing good Lion, there is much evidence of your quarry as in sight and sound, and your chances are 50% plus then sure I agree that is hunting my friend and half the clients will go home empty handed but knowing the had a bloody good chance.

I for one really cannot afford to extend this rebate but I do because firstly I am unsure that I can provide the 6 year plus cat and secondly it takes the pressure off all parties to take any Lion which in itself is a conservation measure.

However knowing the Kafue and what I have seen on my boundary, and indeed the recovery of the area there is a strong possibility of taking a world class trophy Lion.

If this is to happen then I will be increasing the trophy fee substantially in the years to come but will still offer an affordable opportunity, one which does not disadvantage the hunter.

Just my way mate and let us see how all this pans out.

Best of luck with your season and look forward to hearing about your hunting up north.

Cheers

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
there is a strong possibility of taking a world class trophy Lion.


Cheers

Andrew