WJ,

one other thing, the Old Testament is 80% about begetting and killing the enemy...appropriate in their situation today, one might say.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
... If homo cretinus and I ever meet face to face, one of the last things he will do before being fitted for a wheelchair

It does seem that richee has plenty of "threats" to offer, but nothing of substance.

quote:

It is widely said that you can judge a man by his friends, and the sides he takes.

Actually a statement I can agree with. Obviously it is not something richee was able to recognize on his own, but had to have someone tell him.

quote:

I have asked the gentleman who gave me the Wheatstone quote twice this last four weeks if he was shining me on or what, and he says he was serious when he said it.

Trying to place the blame on someone else - pitiful.

quote:

Wrong or right, I will stand by my friend's statement and my repetition here.

Standing by a friend who is WRONG would be a good thing "if" richee helped him understand the Wheatstone Bridge has NOTHING to do with Barrel Fluting. But, expecting that from richee is obviously beyond his ability. When all you have to offer is nothing but "threats", your reputation speaks for itself.

quote:

by richee:
I have been mistaken before, and will be again...

By golly, I'm in COMPLETE agreement with richee.

quote:

...his reputation has irrevocably been fixed and delineated here, for better or worse, and everything he will post in the future will be read with his past in mind.

Absolutely AMAZING!!! I'm in agreement with richee - AGAIN!!

Not sure where richee can go from "blowhard death threats", because I've not seen anything firearms related that he seems to have any actual experience with, nor any first-hand knowledge concerning them. PITIFUL!!!

we can set up a face to face. I'd easily make that drive to crackerville to enjoy a visit with you. But, that's not likely with someone craven enough to refuse to use his real name.

You are zero for 4704 with any addition to the cumulative knowledge of the forum. But, then, every court throughout history has had a clown/jester. Your history here just seems devoid of any humor or purpose. Do you actually own any firearms or have any experience with them, aside from what you read here? I haven't seen you post any of your personal background or accomplishments. Paper hyena?

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by idaho scumshooter:
...Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge.

Probably waaaaaaaaay more information than you wanted, but it's the lesson for the day.

Yes indeed, he is still as totally Stupid today as he was with this post. Pitiful And Pathetic!

By the way, there is a reason for bringing this post out of the archives. If anyone is interested, PM me.

Meanwhile feel free to laugh at idaho's scumshooter - the same as I do.

Yes the "Wheatstone Bridge" Theory to explain Barrel Fluting for firearms from the idaho scunsucker. The same idiot level can be located in all the "fools" in the resident Board Lier - teenScumee - thread.

As long as the fools dish it out, I'll do my best to return it in spades.

I would do it if I wanted a fluted barrel. I do not worry about fixing a problem. I know this
gunsmith that does a good job cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Yes the "Wheatstone Bridge" Theory to explain Barrel Fluting for firearms from the idaho scunsucker. The same idiot level can be located in all the "fools" in the resident Board Lier - teenScumee - thread.

As long as the fools dish it out, I'll do my best to return it in spades.

Slow learner..... very slow learner.

http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm



CONCLUSION ON BARREL FLUTING....

When comparing two barrels of equal weight, length, and material but one is solid and other is fluted, the fluted barrel will have:

A larger diameter

Greater stiffness (depending on how the extra diameter/weight is distributed)

Vibrate at a higher frequency (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)

Less muzzle sag (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)

Fluting a solid barrel will:

Reduce its weight

Reduce its stiffness

Increase its natural frequency of vibration

Decrease its muzzle sag.

Reducing the weight of a barrel by fluting makes a stiffer barrel than reducing the weight by decreasing its diameter.

A shorter barrel of the same section, solid or fluted, will sag less and vibrate at a higher frequency.

Dear Hot Core and TEANCUM,

Would you please stop your pissing match from spilling out onto other threads?

It really is getting old.

Thanks,

friar

quote:

Fluting increases the surface area and some feel it aids in barrel cooling.

Now isn't that what they thought with the Lewis Gun? Strip the big stovepipe cover off one and you'll see a great big fluted surround to the barrel.

Did it work? Well only because of that stovepipe sleeve apparently. I stole the below off the internet after i tried to find some info on the Lewis Gun and its flutes:

quote:

"Thermal Boundary Layer" A principal in fluid dynamics that states that air will not make contact with your gun's barrel.

At high speed, laminar flow induces, then you have air moving very very closely over an object . At rest however (as in a rifle barrel) the heat transfer is radiated- not conducted into the air around it- therefore, surface are means very, very little.

Sorry you fans of barrel fluting.

Unless you do a Lewis Gun thing- with a jacket designed to use muzzle blast to create negative pressure at one ond of the jacket, that pulls air though the jacket passed some very large fins... then you may have something.

From Wikepedia:

Wheatstone bridge

"In 1843 Wheatstone communicated an important paper to the Royal Society, entitled 'An Account of Several New Processes for Determining the Constants of a Voltaic Circuit.' It contained an exposition of the well known balance for measuring the electrical resistance of a conductor, which still goes by the name of Wheatstone's Bridge or balance, although it was first devised by Samuel Hunter Christie, of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, who published it in the Philosophical Transactions for 1833. The method was neglected until Wheatstone brought it into notice. His paper abounds with simple and practical formula: for the calculation of currents and resistances by the law of Ohm. He introduced a unit of resistance, namely, a foot of copper wire weighing one hundred grains (6.5 g), and showed how it might be applied to measure the length of wire by its resistance. He was awarded a medal for his paper by the Society.[8] The same year he invented an apparatus which enabled the reading of a thermometer or a barometer to be registered at a distance by means of an electric contact made by the mercury. A sound telegraph, in which the signals were given by the strokes of a bell, was also patented by Cooke and Wheatstone in May of that year."

I can't see the connection here to barrel flutes, arch bridges or the like. The only reference to "flute" and Sir Charles that I could find was that he invented a musical instrument called a "Flute Harmonique".

http://highfields-arc.6te.net/biogs/cwheatstone.htm

I think that if flutes really stiffened a cylinder significantly you'd see longitudinally ribbed condoms flying off the shelf.

I think they are basically a marketing gimmick. They look cool. They do add a bit more rigidity compared to a barrel of their minor diameter and conduct away a tad more heat. Most folks that need heavy, stiff barrels don't engage in shooting where they need to hump the rifle around(excluding the military). Shot off the bench or a bipod I don't see the need.

To my mind fluted barrels are for looks only. I don't care if there are additional attributes.

If there were any benefits of increased stiffness from a fluted barrel then why did God not create us with a fluted penis?

Yes, fluted for her pleasure.

I just don't like the fluted Barrels

The proper way to to reduce barrel heat has been known and used for over 100 years - FINS. The popular method of longitudinal fluting used today is a cheaper, less effective, method of cooling.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
If there were any benefits of increased stiffness from a fluted barrel then why did God not create us with a fluted penis?

I LAUGHED SO HARD!!!! MY OFFICE MANAGER WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WAS SO FUNNY. I had to show her an image of a fluted barrel because she had no clue. Told her briefly about the debate, then showed her this post. Oh God that was funny. Thanks for the laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
From Wikepedia:

Wheatstone bridge

"In 1843 Wheatstone communicated an important paper to the Royal Society, entitled 'An Account of Several New Processes for Determining the Constants of a Voltaic Circuit.' It contained an exposition of the well known balance for measuring the electrical resistance of a conductor, which still goes by the name of Wheatstone's Bridge or balance, although it was first devised by Samuel Hunter Christie, of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, who published it in the Philosophical Transactions for 1833. The method was neglected until Wheatstone brought it into notice. His paper abounds with simple and practical formula: for the calculation of currents and resistances by the law of Ohm. He introduced a unit of resistance, namely, a foot of copper wire weighing one hundred grains (6.5 g), and showed how it might be applied to measure the length of wire by its resistance. He was awarded a medal for his paper by the Society.[8] The same year he invented an apparatus which enabled the reading of a thermometer or a barometer to be registered at a distance by means of an electric contact made by the mercury. A sound telegraph, in which the signals were given by the strokes of a bell, was also patented by Cooke and Wheatstone in May of that year."

I can't see the connection here to barrel flutes, arch bridges or the like. ...

That is because there is none. Simply consider the source who claims to be from Spud land.

The following statement is in 100% compliance with the thought-police:
- at the Spud land poster, not with him.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
If there were any benefits of increased stiffness from a fluted barrel then why did God not create us with a fluted penis?

And the women readers are thinking more in line with Grenadier's posted pics---



Fins

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
If there were any benefits of increased stiffness from a fluted barrel then why did God not create us with a fluted penis?

WAIT-A-SECOND........*HE* DID!!
I just looked.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The proper way to to reduce barrel heat has been known and used for over 100 years - FINS. The popular method of longitudinal fluting used today is a cheaper, less effective, method of cooling.

Flutes are fins, regardless of the direction they run. My only experience with flutes is on my bull bbl 22.250. After having it fluted, there is a definite difference in cooling. I can fire more rounds before it heats up, and less resting time to cool down. And I don't care either way, I just like flutes.

A fluted penis? A flute being an instrument that makes music when you blow on it. What tune would you want? A group of aggies from Texas A&M are working on breast implants that play music. Reason being that women are always complaining that men stare at their breasts but don't listen to them.

Back to fluting a barrel. It does reduce it's stiffness.

Jumping in kinda late on this one.

I'd do fluting for the looks only. Cerracoating the flute grooves on a SS barrel with flat back (or color of your choice) looks bad azz.

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
I have had a few BR barrels fluted, including one on a railgun which was fluted by Shilen, and saw no increase or decrease in accuracy. Same thing applies to cryo treating barrels.

I watched a youtube video of John Krieger and he mentioned the fact that they cryo-treat all the steel before they manufacture the barrel. Cryo changes the structure of the steel.

Flute the barrel if you like the look. Other than for looks, fluting is needless work done on a barrel with the POTENTIAL to cause bend or buldging no matter how minor. You may get lucky and have your crooked barrel made straighter by the fluting process but with todays age gauge equipment, your custom barrel should be straight to begin with.

Plastic surgery has its dangers too.

Naturally, we are on a reloading forum so it is assumed we reload. Fluting , by reducing the stiffness or integrity of the barrel is going to change the harmonic response during the shot. People who say they have better accuracy after fluting never state if they used the same loads as before. Did they make an effort to work up loads and get the best out of that barrel? It is simple to hit a harmonic node of a barrel and get a good group with load changes.

Better cooling? Extra shots? Nonsense. When you start to shoot a high powered rifle 5-6 times it gets hot. A few more can get painful. Flutes do not make a difference in this small amount of shots fired. If you are truly concerned about cooling and using cooling as your reason for fluting a barrel, then spend that money on an air compresser and air cool your bore from the inside if time is of the essence to your shooting.

You may check, but I think Kreiger doesn't Cryo anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
However, it is conceivable that what some barrel makers say is true, and that is if you do want a fluted barrel, it is BEST to flute it BEFORE it it is cut or button rifled.

I could be wrong but I understood that this is what Lilja does.

Yes, this is correct. Krieger does the same with cryo. Cut or a button rifled barrel makes the difference on what can be done before or after the barrel is made.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You may check, but I think Kreiger doesn't Cryo anymore.

Your probably right. It's been a while since I checked into Kreiger. Here is the video if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwhOXV7lmYk

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Air is a notoriously poor conductor of heat, which is why the little air pockets in goose down enable down jackets to work so well at keeping us warm.

So, unless air is being forced into and out of the flutes, the additional surface area doesn't do much good in conveying away heat more rapidly.

Yup. Wind is cold or hot. Flutes are useless

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Man, I feel better after reading homo cretinus' latest posting.
At least I'm in better company, Dan Lilja, college graduate in engineering and barrel maker of over 20 years experience has the identical stupid notions I have on barrel fluting. Lemme see here, Dan says barrel fluting results in a stiffer, for weight, barrel, and cools much faster under match-style, timed fire shooting conditions. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, must be a lot of us dummies out here in the Northwest.

You forgot the most important point. Lilja's profit margin on fluting a barrel. Fluting isn't cheap and is a basic milling process.

Shilen obviously decided to not make money off fluting.

I don't know about the Wheatstone Bridge but regarding fluting my opinions:

1. Shilin likely voids warranty on fluted barrels because they have no control of the process and are shy of shoddy workmanship. Threading and reaming are fairly straight forward but cutting flutes could easily fugg up a tube if not done carefully.

2. I don't think the added surface area of the flutes make any significant difference in barrel cooling . . . just intuitively speaking.

3. Any accuracy improvements realized by adding flutes is luck. Adding flutes could just as well affect accuracy to the detriment. It simply changes the harmonics. Could be for the good or the bad. . . just intuitively speaking.

4. Fluting removes material and the associated weight. Enough to matter???

5. Fluting adds cost.

IMHO fluting is a cosmetic marketing feature that some folks like and some think improve the rifle. The rifles I have with fluted barrels are accurate and get hot when I shoot them. The rifles I have without fluted barrels are accurate and get hot when I shoot them. They all look good.

Just ran across and read this. Some pretty amazing statements here, along with some pretty amazing lack of engineering or scientific knowledge. I've never been sure why people will not presume to talk about the details of brain surgery if they are a plumber, but will go on for hours on things such as fluid flow, heat transfer, and mechanical stress, all based on the fact they have cut and burned firewood in a stove with a stovepipe, and it is all"obvious".

As pointed out by the people who responded and are qualified to comment, most of these things are not up to debate. A solid barrel of a given diameter is stiffer than a fluted barrel of the same diameter. The former is heavier, the latter will cool slightly quicker. These are givens, easily calculated by exact equations. Some other questions, such as will one be more accurate than the other, are empirical issues and are dependent on the sum of the individual system, and generally won't have a global answer. I have read so many threads, particularly on other boards, about the effects of vibration, moment arms, stress, heat, fluting, load density, shoulder shape, freebore, ...........(you get the idea) that it becomes funny. There are literally hundreds of things that affect accuracy, that it is hard to make blanket statements about anything. "Shilen says they don't flute because there is no reason" is offered as evidence. Well, I called Shilen many years ago in an effort to order a 30" barrel for a single shot I envisioned as the ultimate antelope rifle. I didn't get to order it, since they saw no reason to build it. I was told in no uncertain terms that velocity wasn't that important, and I just didn't need it. I pretty much walked away from them at that point, because it was pretty obvious they suffered tunnel vision from target shooting.

One thing thrown out in a very early post is so far off base, I am amazed that no one questioned it. The statement was made that cutting six flutes in a barrel would nearly triple the surface area. Any high scool geometry student could show this is ridiculous. If a barrel were cut with six flutes so that the entire barrel were fluted, with just tiny ridges between, the increase would be only 50%.

A more real world situation would be six flutes with 50% spacing. Take a barrel slightly under 1" in diameter with a circumference of 3" (to make calculation easy). It has 36 sq in/ft of length. Now cut 6 hemispherical flutes, each 1/4" wide, with 1/4" wide flats between them. (This will be off by the chord vs arc length of the are removed by the cutter, but the difference is only 2 or 3%, so I tried to make it easy). Each flute has a surface area of slightly less than 0.4 sq in. Multiply this by 6, and add the remaining 1/2 of the area of the original barrel surface, and the new area comes out at 3.855 sq in/ ft of barrel. This is a 28% increase, not 300%. If you go through the detailed calcs and allow for the arc vs chord area, the new total is slightly less, and the area increase is just about exactly 25%. You can argue about laminar vs turbulent flow, convective vs forced flow etc, but these all are just contributors to the heat transfer coefficient (HTC) which will be essentially the same before or after, since it is a function of external variables. Cooling will change fundamentally by the ratio of areas. The bottom line is that maximum fluting will give at best a 25% increase in cooling. This is not to be sneezed at by a target shooter, but the fact is it has little impact on a hunting rifle, where three shots in real use are max. Unbelievable claims like 300% increases in cooling, probably originating by someone trying to sell expensive fluting services and based on his "tests" are what gives rise to a lot of fads and mis-information.

Regarding fins, they do work. I have designed and analyzed many of them. They also change the entire game, because flow patterns around them are drastically changed. They are inefficient on an area basis, and are only justified in low temperature installitions generally. Generally they are of bimetallic design. Machined into a steel barrel as shown, they are generally way too heavy for normal use, and only justified when high heat loads are encountered with a heavy recoiling system. Surprise, they are only used on large caliber or automatic weapons.

Well, IMO, when one of the barrel companies figured out how to make spiral flutes on their barrels, it pretty much determined for me that it was simply a cosmetic trick to catch a shooters dollars. Is a barrel with spiral flutes stiffer than a non fluted barrel? Or one with straight flutes?
After they started to flute barrels, they had to figure out a way to "justify" the extra expense. (kinda like the 50mm scopes). They couldn't just say "hey, if you've got one of these you can brag about having something different." Then it's merely an ego thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Barrel fluting. I don't think this topic is as cut and dry as many may think it is.

Some of the explanations make sense to me and some do not.

I had my 30.06 barrel fluted just for the heck of it. John Noveske did it. Fluted the bolt and blued it too. He also built the rifle to begin with. I expressed concerns about it affecting accuracy. He said if it did anything to it, he'd replace the barrel but assured me it wouldn't do a thing, and it didn't. Shot it the day I got it back and the same tight grouping loads were no different.

However, it is conceivable that what some barrel makers say is true, and that is if you do want a fluted barrel, it is BEST to flute it BEFORE it it is cut or button rifled.

I could be wrong but I understood that this is what Lilja does.

Noveske stated to me that for the most part, fluting is cosmetic above all, and if done properly, it will not add nor take away anything from the barrel performance.

IMHO if John said it, take it as gospel!

I'm depressed!!!!!!!!! Been thinking of the fun I missed out on cause my JUNK ain't fluted! DAMN ME!! DAMN ME TO HELL!!!!!!!!!

Not necessarily just an ego thing.

Doing a 20VT on an NIB CZ222rem the only ex stock Kreiger 20cal barrel in 1:10 was a #4 contour. So it ws either that or wait 6+months for a different profile to make its way to Oz.

wanting a 24" barrel the weight was a little heavy & balance was a little too forward , so the choices were re-profile or flute.

liklihood was that fluting would have less impact on stress within the barrel than re-profiling , so it was fluted.

The end result was a rifle that weighs about the same as it would have with a 22" barrel and better balance than it did with the original #4 contour & 24".

Wasn't done for looks or ego.
Wasn't done with any miss-belief it would cool heaps faster
( a 20VT needs cooling ? ).
It was then Parkerised......so it doesn't exactly highlight the appearance of the fluting.

Does it shoot.........Hell yeah !!!
.25" @100 & .75" @200 with limited load development as a hunting rifle.

Lots of reasons fluting & other machining is done.........no doubt many justifications are because it looks 'kool'...... there are other reasons.

Now that is a reach! In fact, refer to my comments about "justification". But, if it makes you happy, I'm glad you had it done and I'm happy for you. Be sure and have the chamber AI'd so's you won't have to trim the brass as often.

Fluting=Dubs

I had my 22-250 fluted because I like it that way. Nothing else needs to matter as long as it shoots, and it does.

I did have the bolts on two rifles fluted. It makes working the action really easy. Also makes the bolt "stiffer" so the the recoil transfer to the bolt face moves multidirectional instead of straight back...