Barrel: Shilen Select Match SS #5 Silhouette #5 1/2 weight. 25†length,

I wanted to flute this barrel with 6 flutes until I read that Shilen will consider my waranty void if I do. My gunsmith does not think it can cause any harm. Any additional opinions will sure help in the decision. My only desire for fluteing would be the look and will not do it if it affects accuracy.

Lilja says no problem.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/barrel_length_fluting.htm

Biggest mistake most make is that they think fluting will make a barrel stiffer. Key point they miss is stiffer compared to a non fluted barrel that WEIGHS the same. The starting dia of the fluted barrel would be bigger therefor stiffer.

To me fluting only makes since if you really like the looks or are trying to reduce the weight of a heavy barrel.

I have had a few BR barrels fluted, including one on a railgun which was fluted by Shilen, and saw no increase or decrease in accuracy. Same thing applies to cryo treating barrels.

I have had 2 barrels fluted. One on a Remington 37 Bull barrel by David Miller and it shot far better AFTER fluting. The other on a 308 Mdl 70 Bull barrel by Joe Reed. It also shot far better after fluting. In neither case did I acheive the weight reduction I desired.

so tell us.....just what is Shilen's warranty?

why would you be concerned about it being voided......I wasn't aware there was such a thing!

Fluting increases the surface area and some feel it aids in barrel cooling.

I can't say I know that for fact, but I will say my fluted heavy barrels don't "seem" to heat quite as fast as the non-fluted heavy barrels I have but, Just a simple observation and may not be true at all...

Reloader

I sat between Tony Boyer and Ed Shilen one evening at the Super Shoot. Ed tells the assemblage that fluting decreases barrel accuracy. Tony then tells the group that he flutes every Shilen BR barrel he gets as soon as he seasons/breaks in the barrel with 20 shots.

Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter. A six-flute cut will nearly triple the cooling surface...which slows heating and increases the cooling. Done wrong it induces barrel flex under the flute-cutter pressure as it mills the barrel one flute at a time.

Savage has come up with a novel way to eliminate uneven stresses during the process. Chief engineer Carl Hildebrandt and CEO Ron Coburn went to a machinery sale when H&R went under and Carl convinced CEO Coburn to buy the fixtures they used to cut the flutes in those funky little revolvers they once made. With a little "tweaking" Carl had it set up to cut all six flutes at the same time. That places absolutely even stress at six points simultaneously...no way for a barrel to "bend" and take a set during the process. Plus, it saves a lot of $$$ because you do not have to index the barrel each time and make one flute cut. It's another reason Savages are so accurate. They do this IIRC, with the barrel fit to the reciever.

Probably waaaaaaaaay more information than you wanted, but it's the lesson for the day.

Rich
DRSS

Rich - (IS) Not to highjack the thread, but have a look at the "finally ready" thread then PM me with your thoughts. I sent you a PM to this effect, must not have gone through. Sorry guys. I do own one rifle with a fluted barrel, a HS Precision in 270WSM that shoots 3/8 inch groups all day long. I like it.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I sat between Tony Boyer and Ed Shilen one evening at the Super Shoot. Ed tells the assemblage that fluting decreases barrel accuracy. Tony then tells the group that he flutes every Shilen BR barrel he gets as soon as he seasons/breaks in the barrel with 20 shots.

Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter. A six-flute cut will nearly triple the cooling surface...which slows heating and increases the cooling. Done wrong it induces barrel flex under the flute-cutter pressure as it mills the barrel one flute at a time.

Savage has come up with a novel way to eliminate uneven stresses during the process. Chief engineer Carl Hildebrandt and CEO Ron Coburn went to a machinery sale when H&R went under and Carl convinced CEO Coburn to buy the fixtures they used to cut the flutes in those funky little revolvers they once made. With a little "tweaking" Carl had it set up to cut all six flutes at the same time. That places absolutely even stress at six points simultaneously...no way for a barrel to "bend" and take a set during the process. Plus, it saves a lot of $$$ because you do not have to index the barrel each time and make one flute cut. It's another reason Savages are so accurate. They do this IIRC, with the barrel fit to the reciever.

Probably waaaaaaaaay more information than you wanted, but it's the lesson for the day.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge . The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter. A six-flute cut will nearly triple the cooling surface...which slows heating and increases the cooling. Done wrong it induces barrel flex under the flute-cutter pressure as it mills the barrel one flute at a time.

I guess you learn something new every day! I thought, for the last 40 years or so, that a Wheatstone's Bridge had to do with Ohm's Law and electricity.

Could you describe, in layman's terms please, how a Wheatstone's Bridge is used to describe rigidity of a rifle barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
so tell us.....just what is Shilen's warranty?

why would you be concerned about it being voided......I wasn't aware there was such a thing!

FROM THERE FAQ.......
What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel. The unrecoverable stresses that fluting can induce will cause the barrel to flex differently or not return from the flexing without cooling down a major amount. This is usually longer than a shooter has to wait for the next shot. The claim of the flutes helping to wick heat away faster is true, but the benefit of the flutes is not recognizable in this regard until the barrel is already too hot.


Waranty;
Called Shilen Cust Service and was told warranty was if I or Gunsmith was not satisfied with barrel they would replace it.

As for why I am worried about a waranty, I deal with pvc and pu products on a daily basis an even though it is pretty claer cut what the conveyor belts and products can withstand. Someone always trys to cut cost and use them in an enviroment that they are not well suited for and expect a credit when it fails. To make a long story short its been drilled into my head.....LOL

The cost of the barrel is not that great and I must admit if I can convince myself that it is not going to hurt the accuracy I may just do it.

Well, I'm still waiting with baited breath to hear about the wheatsones bridge too!!! It's going to be great learning how a way of calculating electrical resistance is applicable to the stresses in a rifle barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Well, I'm still waiting with baited breath to hear about the wheatsones bridge too!!! It's going to be great learning how a way of calculating electrical resistance is applicable to the stresses in a rifle barrel.

I think you might have called Rich's bluff!

quote:

Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter. ]

I am afraid I don't really follow this. Fluting REMOVES material from a barrel, it does not add it. If one was to ADD ribs to a barrel. it might well stiffen it, but I can't see how cutting away material will. The principle is as explained above...if you use a fluted barrel, you can have one bigger around, and still make the same total weight. Being bigger around for the same length, it will be stiffer. But, if you just remove material and don't make it bigger around, I'm afraid I don't see how it will be as stiff as what you started with.

quote:

Savage has come up with a novel way to eliminate uneven stresses during the process. Chief engineer Carl Hildebrandt and CEO Ron Coburn went to a machinery sale when H&R went under and Carl convinced CEO Coburn to buy the fixtures they used to cut the flutes in those funky little revolvers they once made. With a little "tweaking" Carl had it set up to cut all six flutes at the same time. That places absolutely even stress at six points simultaneously...no way for a barrel to "bend" and take a set during the process.]

This does not follow for me, either. It is not the cutting which bends the barrel, regardless whether cutting one flute or 50. Perhaps I was taught wrong, but I was taught that the removal (cutting away) of material frees "stresses" already IN the barrel. When freed, those stress forces bend the barrel in unpredictable directions depending on the grain and temper of the metal. So, How exactly does cutting six flutes at one time prevent that?

I CAN see how it would save time and make manufacturing cheaper less expensive.

You may be correct, but I'd like to see more detailed explanation before throwing away what I was taught.

Barrel fluting. I don't think this topic is as cut and dry as many may think it is.

Some of the explanations make sense to me and some do not.

I had my 30.06 barrel fluted just for the heck of it. John Noveske did it. Fluted the bolt and blued it too. He also built the rifle to begin with. I expressed concerns about it affecting accuracy. He said if it did anything to it, he'd replace the barrel but assured me it wouldn't do a thing, and it didn't. Shot it the day I got it back and the same tight grouping loads were no different.

However, it is conceivable that what some barrel makers say is true, and that is if you do want a fluted barrel, it is BEST to flute it BEFORE it it is cut or button rifled.

I could be wrong but I understood that this is what Lilja does.

Noveske stated to me that for the most part, fluting is cosmetic above all, and if done properly, it will not add nor take away anything from the barrel performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Barrel fluting. I don't think this topic is as cut and dry as many may think it is.

However, it is conceivable that what some barrel makers say is true, and that is if you do want a fluted barrel, it is BEST to flute it BEFORE it it is cut or button rifled.

Noveske stated to me that for the most part, fluting is cosmetic above all, and if done properly, it will not add nor take away anything from the barrel performance.

I certainly agree with all three of these statements. If a barrel has been well stress-relieved during its manufacture, and as long as the fluting is not too deep or too asymetrical, and the barrel not too heated during fluting, I suspect that most of the time, in most applications, the shooter will be unable to discern any significant difference from anything other than the "placebo" affect.

Of course there are always exceptions, which is why Murphy is immortal.

quote:

Noveske stated to me that for the most part, fluting is cosmetic above all, and if done properly, it will not add nor take away anything from the barrel performance

Couple of BR shooters I shot with used a fluted barrel. It allowed them to start with a larger dia and the flute it and still make weight. Others didn't. Can't say I saw a trend one way or the other. But the flutes looked cool.

Real barrel makers flute their tubes, then machine the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Real barrel makers flute their tubes, then machine the bore.

That makes the most sense to me. I have a #5 Lilja tube on one of my magnums and I understand that it was fluted before anything was done to the bore other than the hole was drilled.

Let me answer your question with one: who was Sir Charles Wheatstone?

The deal was Sir Charles had a largish estate with some stonework dating back to roman days IIRC. He went to build a bridge over some river using the best british scientific principles. It failed under flood. He studied the roman bridge building theories and rebuilt using that system. It held, and he was allegedly influenced by elements of the design in his work on designing an instrument that could measure differential resistance in electrical currents. Most concur that electrical current flows like water, and seeks the path of least resistance, etc.
It seems simple enough to be the story, but may be in the ilk of Newton's Apple or Charlie Johnson at the crossroads.

1. Consider that barrel harmonics are weakened by the fluting pattern as opposed by the straight line vibration
of a round barrel.
2. Consider the fact that barrel "walk" is nearly if not completely eliminated by the stiffening ribs inbetween
the flutes.

Rich
DRSS

my guy was here an hour early this morning to help me put the gambrel joists on the shop and start roofing it, sorry to give half the original answer.

1. It's not called "Wheatstone's Bridge" that is a singular possessive, as in (that is) Wheatstone's Bridge, not yours, get off of it. The instrument is "A Wheatstone Bridge" as in singular descriptive noun. I welcome anyone here's genuine explanation of why the word "Bridge" is used.

Give up?

OK, Sir Charles observed roman bridges over 2000 years old in Britain still standing. He figured out that a span with an arched underside distributed the weight evenly over the span width. Build a bridge with vertical pilings and the load is split between two pilings, not the whole span. Today we get away with vertical pilings bridges by using the cable span, a sort-of upside down roman arch. Reference: the Golden Gate Bridge.
There's more than a hundred pages of detailed explanation, but I can't type that in a year.

In reference to fluting barrels: imagine cutting a roman bridge at the ends and making a circle of it with the pilings facing outward. Looks like a gear with the pilings as the teeth. Look at a fluted barrel from the end and it looks like a six-toothed gear.

2. As regards cooling, why does the radiator in your car have fins? Don't they call those "cooling fins"? Someone here said they thought it didn't work until the barrel was (red) hot... Same principle.

3. Ed Shilen doesn't like fluting barrels because since son Doug came into the business (displacing partner Alan Hall) because:
A. they can't get customers to pay what they would charge to do it
B. they have no control over the quality and methods anyone else might use.

Tony Boyer did get Ed to admit (under duress) that he (Tony) had won all of his championships and set all of his records using fluted Shilen barrels and there might, just might, be something to it.

Lunch is over, my guy's back, and I have to be the gandydancer this afternoon.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
...Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter.

No, you are totally WRONG - AGAIN!

Fluting "removes steel" and thus a Fluted Barrel is not anywhere close to as rigid as the same barrel was prior to the Fluting.

quote:

...Probably waaaaaaaaay more information than you wanted, but it's the lesson for the day. ...

And a totally incorrect-pathetic lesson at that.

The more I read of your posts, the less you seem to actually know. No wonder you had problems in the past "discussing" some issues with other members.

For those of you just reading along, this really is not a good Board to talk as if you are some kind of Expert about things where you really don't have a clue as to the reality of the issue. Way too many folks ready to correct posters like this. If you have a legitimate question, there are plenty of folks to help you get a proper understanding.

And obviously still a few who just don't know what they are posting about. Pitiful!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
...Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. ...

You all can feel free to quote me on this:

quote:

Tony Boyer did get Ed to admit (under duress) that he (Tony) had won all of his championships and set all of his records using fluted Shilen barrels and there might, just might, be something to it.

Rich- I've been to several nationals where Tony won or was very close to the top. Never once did I see Tony with a fluted barrel on his rifles. And I've seen Ed diliver to Tony a dozen barrels at one time for Tony to "weed" through. Not one was fluted. I remember well as I thought how nice it would be to receive a dozen barrels at one time. I haven't seen Faye shoot a fluted barrel, either. You sure you have your facts right?

Boyer doesn't only shoot Shilen barrels, but I'm sure most everyone knows that. One riflesmith in Alabama that knows him well said he shoots a variety of barrels.

From Broughton barrels website:

2005 IBS Group Nationals Overall Unlimited Champion - Tony Boyer of Virginia Shooting a 243 cal. 14 twist 5 groove Broughton Barrel along with the shooting skills that Tony has, brought Tony this win along with his 100th Hall of Fame point. Congratulations Tony!

quote:

1. I welcome anyone here's genuine explanation of why the word "Bridge" is used.

How about because the electrical flow "bridges" the gap between positive and negative? And the bridging current is used to indicate the volume of (or reduction of volume which = resistance to) that flow?

quote:

2. As regards cooling, why does the radiator in your car have fins? Don't they call those "cooling fins"? Someone here said they thought it didn't work until the barrel was (red) hot... Same principle.

Well, they're same principle in that with more air-to-metal contact surface, more barrel cooling MAY occur. But, very little increase actually occurs unless air is being FORCED across the increased area AND into contact with that increased surface. That is not as easy as it sounds if the air is flowing at a substantial angle to the axis of the barrel. It resists bending down into the flutes, and once in there, resists flowing back out.

That's also why car radiators have fans (to suck air through them), and are at usually at the front of the vehicle immediately where air is forced through them and over the "fins".

If one has no fan and no vehicle movement, the radiator would have to be a great deal bigger to successfully accomplish its chore. And that's why fluting has only a little real effect in keeping a barrel cooler unless being used in a fairly active flow of wind.

Anyway, Rich, I suspect you are beating a dead horse here. If the quoted bridge builder had filled all the river with material except for a small pipe through at the bottom, which do you think would have been the stronger bridge in terms of resistance to downward (bending) force?

His supposed "Roman" construct, or the much more massive (greater mass) one?

Hot Core,

I bow to your superior intellect and education. The appropriate response is to refute my explanation with scientific data. The use of red letters in wrong, and the rest of your sophomoric drivel merely shows lack of maturity and any valid response. This is why federal law tries to mandate that students remain in school until at least their sixteenth birthday.

The rest of you, bring something to the table besides your appetites. I am not immune to (constructive) criticism or correction...you just have to show me you know more than I do about the subject at hand.
I await someone's scientific data to disprove my contention.


Rich
DRSS

Pegleg,

that was the 1993 SS IIRC. The year he had the heart attack and surgery and shot what, nineteen days later and won? I made the trip with Russ Hayden and had done an article on him and his business about six months earlier for Precision Shooting. I shot Alan Hall's rifle and Skip Otto embarrassed the snot out of me by taking up a collection in his hat to pay my entry fees after I tried to weasel out of competing on the basis of not planning to, being broke, and having no rifle to shoot. I was pretty much a Hunter Class BR guy in the day...

Canuck,

it would have taken him about a hundred years to do that, and it's called a dam with a lower spillway. Remember, this was the 1830's-40's and the work would have been done with horses and wheelbarrows.

Hot Core,

since you pretty much know it all, perhaps you can tell me how the coral castle was built? That one does baffle me...and the rest of the world.

Regards,

Rich
DRSS

I have read many ideas on this. Idahos theory and some others. I have read that it may possible with the metal being of different thicknesses, that the barrel could stress/warp/expand unevenly. My fluted barrels seem to heat up slowly, but take forever to cool. All my fluted barrels shoot exceptionally well. That said they are on trued actions with the best componets I could buy and only feed the reloads that they are fond of. If you like them then grab one. I think if it is done correctly it will not hurt anything. Weight reduction is minimal. It sure does look cool, I just got a bolt back from fluting. That helical pattern looks sexy.

This is a great thread. Hot core and Idaho both have points. I would like to see this DEBATE come to a close with more info and no one getting booted. Fight but fight nice

quote:

Originally posted by Blueprinted:
... I just got a bolt back from fluting. That helical pattern looks sexy.

That is as good as reason to get one done as I've seen. If you like it, go for it.

quote:

Hot core and Idaho both have points.

You got that only "half correct".

quote:

I would like to see this DEBATE come to a close with more info and no one getting booted. Fight but fight nice

PLEASE, don't anyone get rid of rich. We need to keep him right here where we can unscramble his thoughts so not a single Rookie or Beginner gets duped by his obvious lack of experience and knowledge.

As a side benefit, we get some good laughs.

CORNERSTONE, check out Twistedbarrel. Do a search he flutes bolts,barrels in about anything you can think of. prices are cheap, leade time is great and his works is top notch.

quote:

Canuck,

it would have taken him about a hundred years to do that, and it's called a dam with a lower spillway. Remember, this was the 1830's-40's and the work would have been done with horses and wheelbarrows.

Surely a bit of an exaggeration (sp?) there. Idy-ho.

But the point wasn't that he should have filled it in...it was to point out that more material makes things stronger than removing material or using less material, assuming identical materials.

Sure, an arch may be strong enough to withstand a load for which it is designed. But, is it stronger than having material under and otherwise supporting the arch? Hardly a credible idea, that, eh?

Likewise a barrel. Whether material is removed from a surface, immediately under a surface, or from lateral contiguous supporting mass, would not the remaining structure be weaker than if it was all still there? Think about that a bit...

Well I'm just a dumb cook but I grew up in dad's manufacturing shop, doesn't make me an engineer but I know a bit. Take a solid steel bar and test the resistance to bending, then bore it out. There isn't much strength lost, that's why a drive shaft on your truck can be made of holow material. BUT there is a loss of strength even if it isn't much. I can't see where removing material would ever make something stronger.

the chef

Actually chef, I "heard" that a hollow piece of steel tubing has more rigidity than a solid one. Maybe an engineer will confirm or deny it, but it's some physics thing that I took, oh, 20+ years ago and can't remember.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Well I'm just a dumb cook but I grew up in dad's manufacturing shop, doesn't make me an engineer but I know a bit. Take a solid steel bar and test the resistance to bending, then bore it out. There isn't much strength lost, that's why a drive shaft on your truck can be made of holow material. BUT there is a loss of strength even if it isn't much. I can't see where removing material would ever make something stronger.

the chef

Good points, I think.

Actually, part of the confusion may arise because of the different uses we humans have for the word "strength". A hollow drive shaft may have plenty of strength to resist twisting, but bending longitudinally is something else.

I agree it will not lose too much in terms of how much force it takes to make it begin to bend, but once it does start to bend, the difference in the rate of deformation is considerable. and becomes more of a sudden collapse than a simple bend.

That's why bending pipe is usually done with "inside the arc" support, and often the pipe itself is filled with something to help support those wall arches while being bent.

Your last line ("I can't see where removing material would ever make something stronger.") pretty much says it all.

When the Navy was teaching me to be a Nuclear Machinist Mate, they taught me in exhaustive detail about the Wheatstone Bridge and how the principle made the restistance temperature gauges we used work. Alberta Canuck hit nail on the head when he posted about the Wheatstone bridge. Weird that we never discussed the Wheatstone bridge when when were talking about stuctural integrity or metalurgy I daho Sharpshooter I respect your superior knowledge of firearms and the shooting sports, but I think you missed the mark on the Wheatstone Bridge. The fluted barrel question always had me scratching my head. I hear alot of conjecture posted on this subject and have been bewildered by the appearent lack of facts attached to both sides of this arguement. I see quite a few "I think", "I believe", and "maybe's". Seems to me that the strength principle of the non fluted versus the fluted should be easy to prove one way or another. The cooling properties of the fluted barrels versus the non fluted should be measurable as well. I remember doing science projects in high school and maybe someone has a son or a daughter that is a student and could test this? Seems like it would be fun project...just a thought.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I had a fluted #5 Douglas barreled 270 Winchester on a Sako L461 (don't quote me on the action number it was years ago) action, and it shot quite well. All of my other rifles had non-fluted barrels, and they shot well or not, depending upon a range of factors. I don't know if the fluting was one of the positive factors on that Sako.

Question: doesn't machining a flute on 416 stainless or 4130 chrome moly barrels cause the machined area to harden, and maybe stiffen the barrel longitudinally or is the hardened surface from the cutter merely negligible in determining the stiffness of the barrel where the major diameter and minor diameter (caused by removing the metal during the fluting operation) control its stiffness?

To me if the barrel's diameter controlled the stiffness, then the fluting may actually detract from its stiffness and change its harmonic when the bullet passes through it. This would be a cool and interesting experiment with an oscilloscope. I just had to try one of these Graemlin things.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I remember reading somewhere very credible(I didnt save it )
-how much effort is involved to properly work out the machining profiles for flutes according to individual barrel geometry,
- how important it is to achieve very even machining with minimal induced stress ie;good supports, very sharp high spec.cutters for minmal number of mild cuts.
Thus barrel has to be indexed around a few times for minimal&multiple mild stress cutter passes on each flute. then you do the final dimensions of the bore.

In other words, to properly flute a tube costs a fair wack of time($$), which most barrel fitters dont do, as is reflected in the prices they charge for fluting.

quote:

Originally posted by HondoLane:
...Weird that we never discussed the Wheatstone bridge when when were talking about stuctural integrity or metalurgy

If anyone had brought it up in your class, the guy doing so would have been a candidate for permanent residence in a Rubber Room.

quote:

Idaho Sharpshooter I respect your superior knowledge of firearms and the shooting sports,...

Now..., that is WEIRD!

quote:

I see quite a few "I think", "I believe", and "maybe's". Seems to me that the strength principle of the non fluted versus the fluted should be easy to prove one way or another.

Yes, it is easy to prove, but should be as obvious as a horse wearing a parachute. First off, if you will go back over the thread, you will see there is no one in support of the rich's bologna. That is apparently creating a "conflict" for you because somewhere along the way you have been duped by rich(aka PT Barnumed, dentoned, fooled) into believing he has some small amount of firearms related knowledge. Now when your brain detects the total ignorance, it is creating the conflict.

I've been trying to think of a simple test you can run for yourself, if you understood "why" it would be similar to doing a Deflection Test on two pipes with the same I.D. but different wall thicknesses, then you would not be in conflict. But, since you don't, then we need something else as an Example.
---

AHHH..HAAAAA, I have an example for you, that you can do for yourself. It will(or should) be obvious for a former member of the MARINE CORPS Taxi Service(aka Swab Jockey).

You will need two pieces of plywood 4" wide and 18" long(thickness won't matter), a saw, a vise, a level, a box of Bullets and a measuring tape.

1. Imagine the non-fluted barrel when viewed from the end and you will see a " O "(an oblong one like that is from a Winchester ), or you can use a Soda Straw to look at.
2. Imagine splitting it lengthwise and flattening it out and you will see a solid " ____ " shape.
3. Replace that image with a piece of the Plywood(look at the end of it) and call this "Test Sample 1".
4. Take the second piece of Plywood and cut 8-12 Grooves(aka Flutes), 1/2 way through the plywood, along it's length and call this "Test Sample 2".
5. Place Test Sample 1 in a Vise so that only 4" of the length is gripped by the Vise and adjust it so it is level. Place the Box of Bullets on the extended end and measure how far down it Sags(the Deflection).
6. Do the same with Test Sample 2.

This works the exact same as cutting Flutes into a Barrel. The Fluted barrel(plywood) will Deflect more. And as a nice side benefit, this example also has ZERO to do with a Wheatstone Bridge, same as a barrel.

If that still isn't clear to you, maybe I can think up one using Buckets and Swabs.

Best of luck to you.

Ah! Cretin strikes again!

Even a moron such as yourself should know that you cannot compare apples and oranges. The quick scientifically valid answer is to be had from barrelmaker Dan Lilja. Got to his website and get his phone number and just call him and ask. He's the one that got me started on this whole thing sixteen years ago.
As regards the fluting/stiffening ribs issue and strength, I just read that the GP moto bikes use internally fluted tubing for less weight and more ability to combat frame and swing arm flex under cornering loads. They need to get your superior wisdom to set them straight.

regards,

Rich
DRSS
committed to the WB principle

Hard to believe just how little riche actually comprehends in comparison to what he thinks he is an expert on. Makes a person wonder if he has to have someone do complicated things for him, like tie his shoes.