The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles To flute or not to fluteGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| To flute or not to flute | Login/Join |
| one of us |
A fluted barrel would cool faster and would be lighter. Can't see why Shilen doesn't want to put a warrenty on it. | |||
|
One of Us |
I'd guess it is because their knowledge and experience tells them it is not a good thing to load themselves up with that kind of contingent liability, from a business point of view. Anyway, although a barrel may cool slightly faster when fluted, and probably does most of the time, it isn't all that much better at cooling.... Air is a notoriously poor conductor of heat, which is why the little air pockets in goose down enable down jackets to work so well at keeping us warm. So, unless air is being forced into and out of the flutes, the additional surface area doesn't do much good in conveying away heat more rapidly. Like everything in life, there ain't no free lunch. That's true in the physical science of shooting as well as in war and politics. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Like gun barrels, they use fluting to achieve a certain amount of stiffness with a weight parameter in mind. If they wanted ultimate stiffness( without weight consideration)they would eliminate much fluting and allow the material to remain in areas where the flutes would otherwise be. For GP power to weight performance It is wise to remove much material in areas that are not high stress loaded,and to only leave whats essential in areas that are high stress loaded,thus reducing mass and inertia that would otherwise slow a GP bikes performance. There is no doubt that certain geometries in webbing/fluting/bracing have advantages in strength and stiffness over less efficient geometries.eg:, a radius is stronger than a 90deg shoulder.But that radius is still adding material not subtracting it, but it does so in a minimal efficient way. Put it this way,if a guy came to you with an already fluted gun barrel,and asked "how do I make it stiffer maintaining the same profile?" would you suggest: 1/ larger flute dimensions? 2/ extra flutes? 3/Combo of more flutes & larger flutes?, or... 4/ get yourself a barrel made up same profile without flutes?  from the Lija Site: ... If we compare a fluted barrel to one that is not fluted, both weighing the same, the fluted barrel is stiffer. This is because the fluted barrel will be of a larger diameter than the unfluted barrel of the same weight and length. Increasing the diameter of a barrel greatly increases its rigidity...[endquote] So, -Fluting itself does not increase stiffness. -The material between flutes does increase stiffness if it increases the external dia. of a barrel(ie;the radial material between the flutes become integral bracing/stiffening ribs) - Stiffness varies with different profiles of Flute: eg;if you machine radius flutes,that barrel will be stiffer than a barrel that has flutes with 90deg shoulders with same depth, width & number of flutes. -and if you were to fill those square or radiused flutes in as well, then the barrel would become more rigid. So logically if you get two barrels of same dia.,the fluted version will naturally have more potential flex. The Real Benefits of Barrel Fluting,the FACTS with MATH to prove it. WJ. | |||
|
| one of us |
Everytime I look at "richee's lesson", I can't help but laugh.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Flute schmoot. For all the use they are they're not worth having. As for looks, I'd rather have a blued Mannlicher style spiral barrel. Heck, if someone won a world benchrest shoot with one, there would be theorys flying in all directions. Of course the spirals would have to suit the hemisphere.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Now richee will be using that as one of his "lessons".  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I could be mistaken, but you're still a moron...and that won't change. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| one of us |
Try as I might, looking at every snippet of info that a google search can provide, I still cannot find the correlation between the Wheatstone Bridge and barrel fluting as suggested by Idaho Sharpshooter. Nor can I find even remote evidence that Sir Charles Wheatstone dabbled in perfecting stonework bridges. Perhaps all this "Wheatstone's bridge" malarkey is a figment of someone's fertile imagination. Or just plain blowing smoke up everyone's ass hoping no one will notice. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey onefunzr2, Nice post. Of all the Firearm related Boards in cyberspace, what possible reason could someone have for posting such absolute stupidity on this Board and believe it would be accepted as "a Lesson"? Just doesn't make any "rational sense" at all when you realize the knowledge base this site has.  --- That said, it is nice to know richee is still here and will "probably" afford us other opportunities to be amazed at his total lack of fiream knowledge.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
homo cretinus utters more critical babble without adding anything to the discussion beyond that. I don't concern myself with "do nothings" like you; a VG without anything to offer. The big difference between the two of us is that while I may occasionally be mistaken in a stated viewpoint, it at least stimulates conversation and adds some knowledge to the forum's collective knowledge. You on the other hand, will never be accused of being anything more than a know nothing, never done anything positive blowhard; who can only criticize others because he has nothing to contribute of his own experiments or accomplishments. It's people like you who perpetuate the stereotype of "poor white trash" and the KKK in the south. I do feel sorry for you. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
My thanks to all of you who have PM'ed me with messages of support. Especially the unnamed person in Utah that sent me an NRA marksman badge with all three bars attached in the mail. It's like a public service. Thanks again, Rich DRSS | |||
|
One of Us |
Wow............ I think I will just not flute it.  Or maybe I will  Thanks for the info guys I enjoyed reading the posts Thanks, ED | |||
|
| One of Us |
You're welcome! I feel the need to reply to HC. He had wrote this:
This from Lilja's site
| |||
|
| One of Us |
While, the barrel guru does not go into detail of why it works, I'm sure his abilities and workmanship speak for themselves. | |||
|
| one of us |
Sure, Um, but, does a heavy barrel need to be more stiff. (Should be easy to prove, the way they bend barrels). Many report the weight saving is very minimal. Not everyone shoots a 50bmg cal. If they had a distinct advantage everyone would be useing them. A lot of people state they buy them just for looks. I'd NOT buy one because of the looks. Reminds me of a truck part. Finaly, I'm sure top barrel makers disagree on a few fact/fables, and still produce a good product anyway. | |||
|
| one of us |
I can see how a person would be confused by reading that. But it is either out of context, or simply wrong. I would encourage you to contact Mr. Lilja directly - by phone or email - and ask him, "Which is more rigid, a non-fluted barrel or a fluted barrel with the same Outside Diameter." Feel free to post your appology right here where you can grovel and richee can continue to look like the fool he obviously happens to be. It should have been obvious from the Example I provided with the plywood. Have you never broken two pieces of wood and realized the one which has more mass took more effort? Same with bending wire or steel. .366torque, how does that Wheatstone Bridge/barrel of richee's work? | |||
|
| One of Us |
JAL, consider the fact that a barrel is supported by an inch or a bit more threaded area at one end, screwed into an action. Grab a yardstick and hold it straight out by about 1.5 inches of the end in one hand. Now tape about six steak knives along the yardstick. Gets harder to hold onto with the weight. Take every other one off...easier to hold out there. Read .366 Torque's quotes from Dan Lilja. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Man, I feel better after reading homo cretinus' latest posting. At least I'm in better company, Dan Lilja, college graduate in engineering and barrel maker of over 20 years experience has the identical stupid notions I have on barrel fluting. Lemme see here, Dan says barrel fluting results in a stiffer, for weight, barrel, and cools much faster under match-style, timed fire shooting conditions. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, must be a lot of us dummies out here in the Northwest. Must be something to that old quote about the Westward Expansion; "the cowards never started, and the weak died along the way...". Okay cretin, you stick with the low road of never contributing anything but criticism. I'll continue to experiment and take my chances in the forum of public opinion as far as determining who is "doing" and who is "whining". .366 Torque, post Dan's website so the carolina cracker can go read it for himself. regards, Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Idaho, "Stiffer for weight" thats correct, cause your talking within the bounds of a weight parameter. So flutes allow one to re arange the same amount of material into a different geometry(Larger diameter) for greater stiffeness& same weight. >>That does not mean flutes make a barrel stiffer, its is still the dia. increasing integral stiffening ribs that do that.<< If someone had two #2 barrels with identical outside dimensions and bores,and it was decided to simply flute one(remove material,not rearange it), it then becomes more suceptable to flex than the unfluted one. Like wise, if you have two #2 barrels with identical outside dimensions,but one has .264 bore and the other .308 bore, the .264 bore tube will be stiffer. WJ [QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter: ..Fluting a barrel does increase flex resistance, it's an engineering thing known as Wheatstone's Bridge. The principle being that as you add reinforcement to a span it increases the rigidity and strength. Fluting adds ribs to the barrel which are more resistant to barrel whip than an unfluted barrel of the same diameter. A six-flute cut will nearly triple the cooling surface...which slows heating and increases the cooling..... Rich [quote] The section in Red is Erroneous.  What sound reasoning(ie:established proven engineering principle) makes samp.B more rigid than samp.A ? I cannot find anything to support such statement. But can easily find one that supports A being stiffer than B. So,I'll post it again for those that might have missed or ignored it in an earlier post. The Real Benefits of Barrel Fluting,the FACTS with MATH to prove it. | |||
|
| one of us |
FWIW there was a very interesting article on the Fulton Armory site a couple of years ago about barrel fluting. Might be worth a read. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Woodjack, true in a sense, but since all competition rifle are built to a weight limit, fluting makes even more sense because that extra length available would add velocity if you choose that route. The other would give you more torsional stiffness for a given length. Good post, adding something to the discussion. Rich DRSS  | |||
|
| one of us |
I see richee is now trying to "change his position", from his first totally ignorant post, to add the word "weight" so he is in agreement with Mr. Lilja. And yes, that does change the context. But fortunately, the first post is captured and nothing can be done to undo richee's ignorance. --- Hey .366Torque, How are you coming with the Wheatstone Bridge that you apparently "agree" with richee about? | |||
|
| one of us |
Here is the entire first ignorant post of the thread. Notice the lack of the word "weight" or "same weight". So no, richee can change his position all he wants now, but there it is. And that part can't be changed - now! | |||
|
| One of Us |
A litle practical expierince about fluted barrels. 3 barrels were tested for bending under a load of 2kg placed on top of the muzzle. All wher same caliber and all where mounted in the same switch barrel action, in the same lathe collet. 2 barrels had the same OD, 1 fluted 1 unfluted, there was also a 3rd barrel of smaller OD, but the same weight as the fluted. All 3 barrels were made from the same rolled bar of steel. The result vas measured by a dial gauge. the thick unfluted showed less bending. The thick fluted bendet 7% more than the thick unfluted. The thin unfluted bended 35% more. You achieve a larger cooling surface by fluting, but it is rarely more than 25%, and there might occur a type of insulating effect on the flutes that is posisioned up and down, because that the hot air is trapped in something you can compare to a hot air balloon(convection. A fluted barrel will contain less material to accumulate heat, than the unfluted of same OD. So the fact is that a fluted barrel will heat up faster(less material to accumulate), and also cool down faster(larger surface) A to deep fluted barrel, can have the tendency to concentrate elasticity moovements to narrow spots in the bottom of the flute, witch in worse case can cause metalfatique, and finaly bananasplit barrel. If a barrelmaker that uses buttonrifeling flutes deeply before rifeling, he might acheve a uneven ID, the same could happen if a buttonrifeled barrel not enough stressrelieved is fluted. A cutrifeled barrel is best fluted before rifeling and lapping. Please dont let this post stop you from buying fluted barrels, Because that is where we small producers and gunsmiths is making real good money. 50-200$ in 14 minutes  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hmm, jorgen the plot thickens. We have the pro's saying it works and the con's saying it doesn't. Both sides with arguements for the cause. We should invite Dan Lilja to the arguement and have his version. Hot Core, I do not have an engineering background to prove or disprove Rich's theory. That is why I chose Dan Liljas site. He is a barrel maker of enviable reputation. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, it looks like jorgen's test just caused somebody's "Wheatstone Bridge" theory as related to barrel fluting to collapse into the river. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've shot with Lilja several times and Dan never uses a fluted barrel. At least from what I can remember. They say the memory is one of the first things to go. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey .366 Torque, I do have an Engineering Degree and it is easy to see through richee. Ask one of your friends that has an Engineering Degree and it should make this a simple issue for you to understand. By the way, "jørgen" works in the Lab for S&L. They make a right fine rifle, and he does the Testing of their designs. --- If you will contact Mr. Lilja, I feel sure he will clear up the confusion for you very quickly. One good thing about all of this, once you do understand that you have been richeed(aka PT Barnumed, dentoned, flim-flamed, suckered, duped) it will make it much harder for the next richee to lead you astray. I've been fooled by the blowhards myself, but not one as inexperienced as richee. Best of luck to you. | |||
|
| One of Us |
on the advice of good friends here I have one thing left to say: "...never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level, and then beat you with experience...". I asked the person who gave me that quote if he was serious and he said yes. He hasn't lied to me in seventeen years. Rich DRSS PS: homo cretinus: I could be wrong, but you're still an ill mannered, small minded, nobody who only has a life here nitpicking. That won't likely ever change for you, and I can move on. Thanks again to all of you who PM'ed me with words of support. That makes me feel pretty good to know that. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey .366Torque, What did Mr. Lilja have to say? --- Yes indeed, Still funny. | |||
|
| One of Us |
you must really have a sad home life if this is the best you can do. The people forced to spend time with you, aside from your psychiatrist, have my sympathy. Rich DRSS | |||
|
One of Us |
I have three barrels fluted...worst performcae is my super light weight .308 which is 2/3 inch gun. My 338 Galaxy was an 1/3 inch gun and my remington 700 is a 1/4 inch gun on good days Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| new member |
Hot Core; I just wandered over here to this forum to see if there is anything of interest for a new guy here. After reading your smartass remarks that do nothing more than make you look like a fool, I see there is nothing of interest for me here. Bye. Good day to the rest of you guys here. | |||
|
| one of us |
For some strange reason, I thought you were pulling a clinton on us. And sure enough, you did. A man is no better than his word. --- Mr. Bullet, Perhaps you would change your mind about leaving long enough to explain richee's "Wheatstone Bridge" Theory (as it relates to Barrels) to us. I'm always willing to learn and have enough Engineering background that you will not be talking over my head. This is a great Board: 1. If you have actual first-hand experience that can be helpful to the Beginners. 2. Where you can share laughs with your buddies. 3. And where you can laugh at the blowhards. It is a tough place for the actual blowhards like richee though. | |||
|
| new member |
Mr Hot; My point---which you don't get, or I wouldn't be posting again on it for you---is that no matter what a person says, it does not deserve the pompous treatment you and your engineering background CAN give it; it deserves to be handled better than you have done on this issue. Being grown up is not about who can humiliate the most, it's about everyone acting like an adult...and you're sadly lacking there. You can put your engineering background where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned, because you are a pompous little person, and your credibility is zero at this point. We all know alot about something; but most of us won't rub it in the faces of those who don't. I'd like to have had you on my job for a day---I'd have had you crying like the baby you are. Has Your Highness gotten my point yet, or should I print this twice? | |||
|
| one of us |
Mr. Bullet, You do seem rather easily inclined toward a higher state of blood pressure. You even got upset when I was having fun "laughing at" richee's blowharding about his pure nonsense, where he "gave us a Lesson" based on loonacy, rather than Facts. And I see you have posted nothing to support richee's Wheatstone Bridge Theory, except personal attacks on me. Very impressive on your part to sway the argument in richee's favor. --- Lots of Beginners and Rookies need good advice when they come to this Board. I also reach out to the people with more first-hand experience for guidance when it is appropriate. What the Beginners don't need is a bunch of total stupidity like richee's Wheatstone Bridge Theory. I've always found it better to laugh with folks rather than at them, which I would suspect you would agree with. But, when that doesn't work, I also have no problem at all "laughing at" a blowhard fool. Since you have offered nothing but personal attacks on me, and stuck your nose into a situation where you offer nothing else, I'll guess you must be a "richee dupee". I'm still interested in "Credible Facts" about richee's Wheatstone Bridge Theory if you have anything to offer in that reguard. The problem I see for you, and the other richee dupees, is it is PURE BLOWHARD IGNORANCE and can't stand on it's own merit. So you enjoy mistreating your employees. I'd guess they must really hold you in high reguard. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have shot with Tony Boyer for about 15 yrs only. I have never seen a fluted barrel on any of his rifles. That being said, I was in Phoenix when Skip Otto set his world record with his fluted barrel. He shot a .099 group at 200yds. If you have 2 barrels with equal dimensions with one fluted, the unfluted barrel would be stiffer. You just do not hardly ever see fluted barrels on a BR rifle. Butch | |||
|
| One of Us |
BulletButt, You have joined AR just a little too late to appreciate the refined diplomacy of VarmintGuy, who has departed the AR forums. Be aware that IdahoSharpShooter is a righteous Old Testament kind of guy, and if someone steps outa'line, He promises to pound their body back into Muther Earth. A fine Christian Act. Ive discovered its a bit like a WW1 trench war here at times. After all the pounding, some of troops come out of the trenches and smile at each other and agree on little things, but then retreat back to their trenches and resume shelling and sniping each other. I am rather confident that the people who rasp at each other here would treat each other with much more decency if they met up in person. But in the meantime, Who am I to change the oceans'tides or the nature of man? | |||
|
| One of Us |
hey cracker boy, lunacy is spelled like I just posted, not "loonacy". It has to do with the moon not a fish eating diving bird. You are obviously a product of public schools. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Woodjack, yes I am, I do not suffer fools, boors, or insults graciously. If homo cretinus and I ever meet face to face, one of the last things he will do before being fitted for a wheelchair is post a heartfelt public apology to all of you. The garbage he spews out here is the true sign of a coward, one who knows he cannot be held accountable for his mouth over the internet. This is the final refuge of a coward... I had considered you a man with some honor, since you have not stooped to his level...hard to get down that low. To defend him does place you at risk. It is widely said that you can judge a man by his friends, and the sides he takes. I have asked the gentleman who gave me the Wheatstone quote twice this last four weeks if he was shining me on or what, and he says he was serious when he said it. Wrong or right, I will stand by my friend's statement and my repetition here. I have been mistaken before, and will be again...but homo cretinus' statements have not brought him any honor in this forum. Once you could judge a man by the quality of his enemies...this makes the exception to the rule. This Bulletbutt came in out of the blue and stated the obvious...the dork has no class. I have had numerous PM's of support and offers to flame homo cretinus here, and declined them all to date. We all make choices... and his reputation has irrevocably been fixed and delineated here, for better or worse, and everything he will post in the future will be read with his past in mind. BulletButt, it is the one shortcoming of a forum where you do not have to post your real name and address...that anyone can say almost anything without fear of consequences for their actions... the one thing a true and honest discourse cannot long stand is anonymous character assassination. I thank you for your post. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles To flute or not to flute
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia