The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Should I re-chamber to a 30-06AI?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
I am not a big magnum fan but would like a bit more go in my larger bore rifles. The reloading manuals are showing very generous rewards for this modification, whats the real world have to say? Captain Finlander | ||
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Dear Captain Finlander: It appears that as far as a velocity improvement, you only get about a 100 fps increase. On that score, it probably isn't worth it. On the other hand, I'm building a 30-36 AI alongside a 7x57 AI and a 35 AI, since I like the Ackley design better than the original cartridges. The velocity increase in the 7x57 AI was a serious improvement over the standard 7x57. But a 7x57 loaded to modern pressures with a long throat will do about the same thing as the AI version. Ask Ray Atkinson. My experience with Ackley cartridges is limited to the 7x57 AI, and here is what I learned: 1. almost no case stretch when partial neck sized or neck sized; 2. extraction even with hot loads was easy in my old Brno military Mauser; 3. reloaded Winchester cases seemed to last forever; 4. Four standard case .473" Ackley Improved cartridges fit into an 1898 Mauser magazine, instead of three belted magnums; 4. feed rail adjustment to accommodate the 7x57 AI in a 1898 Mauser takes all of 30 minutes. In my opinion the Ackley Improved cartridges are mechanically better than the original in most cases. The modern cases like the RUM's, RCM's, etc. seem to bear this out, since the ammunition designers are copying most of Charles Newton's and Parker Ackley's designs. Even Nosler got in the act with the 280 AI. I like them. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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I have no hands on experience with the 30-06AI but what I've read about it sez it ain't worth it. I've yet to see any documentation of these rather nebulous advantages such as ease of extraction, ease of case prep, etc. And, from what I've read, even the velocity gains are questionable. 'Course you know in cyberspace just writting "AI" on the side of a cartridge will gain you several hundred feet per second in velocity.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I've got 2 30-06AI's and am very happy with both. Both are Rem 700's. And there is an increase in velocity. But don't think you will be hitting 300WinMag levels. I've found that I can pretty much approximate 300 H&H velocities with 200gr AB's. Haven't chronied the 180gr AB's.... I shot a black bear in NWT in May with this round! DRT....instand moan...didn't move an inch. My 30-06AI is in a McMillian and is my go to rifle. Love it. And I really don't mind fireforming as it will shoot standard 30-06 rounds MOA. A lot of guys bash the AI's and I can certainly understand some of it but usually the same guy will go out and drop a fortune on a new caliber with a 200fps increase as if its the cats meow. For me it was a cheap conversion. I was already going to have the action squared so the oly additional cost was $75 (smith already had the reamer). | |||
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Ackley didn't think very highly of the results from most of his "improved" efforts, including the .30-06, which is quite good as it is. Most benefit with any of them is with heavy for caliber bullets. PO thought the best for his improvement was the .257 Roberts/7x57, both highly effective medium game rounds that are largely ignored today. I think the supposed advantages of a sharper shoulder to reduce stretching is vastly over rated, really doubt shoulder angle has much significance in stretching. I get very little stretching in my own -06s with some quite hot loads. Get 10-12 cycles with a single trim after 5-6 loads and anneal at the same time. My case failures are normally due to splits during sizing. I've never had any detectable danger of a head seperation in more than 45 years of using/reloading for the -06. Everyone to his own taste but the cost:benefit ratio sure isn't worth it to me. | |||
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Not the one I have....let me quote from the Hornady manual that tested the .30-06 AI to the same pressure as the SAAMI spec for the .30-06
In my estimation.....AI=BS /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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My own take on it is that it's not worth it. I have yet to see where a standard 06 won't get the job done and I'm not willing to give up the smooth feeding characteristics of the standard case. I doubt that the difference in velocity is worth a hill of beans, however, having said that, AI cartridges make a nice hobby for those so inclined and I would imagine that it gives a lot of pleasure for those who indulge and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just not for me. That's my two bits on it anyway.   | |||
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Cobra makes a good point....and if this is your interest, I'd suggest you look to the .30 Gibbs instead.....  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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one of us |
The only AI that I would build is a 280AI. None of them do a whole lot of anything other than give you a self "wow" factor. Even then, when you go use it on game you realize your original caliber would have performed the same. Ultimately, I think it boils down to having something different. Regarding the 30.06AI, in any given hunting situation, you can use your .06 as is or make it an AI and you nor the game would ever tell the difference. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Captain, in my opinion, AI is something best done on a new build, and matched with a 26" barrel. You need the barrel length to take advantage of the extra powder capacity. | |||
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Consensus seems to be that you will gain in velocity about 1/4th of the case capacity increase, if you adhere to the same pressures. Rich | |||
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You might want to look into any feeding problems with the rifle you are useing. I made up some some dummy 30-06 AI to see how my pre-64 M70 would feed them, and it won't. Maybe the pushfeeds and M700's do better in this reguard. | |||
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I have both of Ackley's books. The "improved" cartridges only show a significant improvement where the original cartridge cases had a lot of taper. For example, big gains are achieved over standard .25-35 and .250 Savage but not over .25-06. I have also read several reviews and tests in which the authors tried to duplicate the velocities Ackley achieved. Most of these authors concluded that even the little gain Ackley reported with the 30-06 was due in part to loading the AI version to higher pressures. A good rule of thumb is that if you want to get magnum performance then use a magnum cartridge. . | |||
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use rel22 and long bullets .. you'll be surprised, in the STANDARD opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Yup.....no trouble at all getting 2,800 FPS with the standard .30-06, a 180 grain bullet using RL-22 and even in a 22" barrel......pressure the same as a factory loaded .270 Winchester /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Sounds like you really need to Rebarrel to a 338-06 or the excellent 35Whe. Best of luck whatever you choose to do. | |||
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I put a 30-06 AI together in 1995. Rem 700 action, Shilen 23'bbl, custom stocked in walnut. I really like it. Did break the 3000fps mark with 180 gr bullets, but those loads were on the warm side. I did settle for 2930fps with the 180 pills.Case life is good, accuracy is an honest 1/2 to 3/4" with various bullets. Shoots factory ammo great as a bonus. If you want a "wild cat" thats easy to live with ,try it. Hang on TITE !! | |||
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I built a large number of AIs and wildcats on the 06 case. At equal pressure my norm was 1% velocity for 4% capacity gain. Larger gains are pressure related. If you want one go for it. Just be realistic in your expectations. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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If you want more, go to the 35 Whelen. | |||
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I built a .257AI because I never heard of one that was not a tack driver. I am happy but I would never build another AI again. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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No. Last year I bought quantity of 180gr Winchester soft points at Dick's for $13.97 per box of 20. I hope you live in USA close to Dick's sporting goods store. The closeout price for .35 Whelen ammo was about $18/box which was very favorable price. | |||
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I had my 30-06 AI built in 2006. My Rem 700 custom 30-06 was built in 1982 and had a tooth pick thin barrel. The most I could ever get from it's 22" Mag-na-ported barrel with 180's was about 2750 and that was really pushing it. Plenty of case trimming accompanied the brass when pushing to it's limit. Once the barrel was shot out, I pulled the old barrel and sent it to Dan Lilja so he could copy the contour but make it a 26" SS, 3-groove barrel. I had a former gunsmith who worked at Barnes bullets chamber, thread, crown and screw it on the action. I got my load data from an AR member, Ackley User. Wow, was able to hit 3100 fps with 180's. I know it wasn't just the extra case capacity. I was compressing upto 71 gr of Rel 25 with Nosler 180 BT/AB's. I backed off to 3000 fps with 68.5 gr in Win cases. I've gotten over 5 loadings per case and still going strong. The cases feed flawlessly through my action. I used Cream of Wheat to fireform my cases. Would I do it again? As a newbee to AI cases, yes. Now that I've done it, yes! I like the fact that I can get mag velocities, good cases life and I don't have to trim my cases as much. I hate trimming cases. Even once I backed off from my rifles max, I was still getting 3000 fps and the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA with my best being 4-1/4" @ 818 yds. I took a nice spike elk here in Utah using the 180 AB Oct of 2007. I can trade back and forth between BT's and AB's. Alan  | |||
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Why not just shoot Federal High Energy, or Hornady Super Force 30/06??? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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My experience has been that it is only worth the effort if one is having the rifle rebarreled anyway and starting from scratch. The game will not be able to tell the difference. The only advantage may be that you with the AI, you may not have to trim brass as often. When I went with my .338-06, I choose the AI version for that reason alone. But if the rifle had already be built, I would not rechamber to the AI version. The standard .30-06 is pretty good as is with no fireforming needed. | |||
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I have only one AI and that is the 280AI. The thing is, I don't see any downside to it. You can load and shoot factory or parent loads in the AI just as you would if the chamber was not AI'ed. IME the factory loads or loads with new brass from the parent caliber are often if not always more accurate. Plus the AI has the added advantage (if properly reamed) of reducing headspace in that the AI chamber will have a slight crush fit even with new cases. The trimming is less as is common knowledge and my experience. You get the added bonus of extra velocity and powder capacity even if less than expected, it will be some. In fact, I would AI a chamber even if it did not give any extra velocity just for the other advantages!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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If one removed a thread from his barrel and rechambered to the standard .30-06 such that he matched his reloading die with .002 clearance in headspace he would achieve the same (claimed) brass life as the AI version. Further if he reloaded the standard round to the same pressures he loads the AI version he achieves the same velocity..... Then after all this if he decides to sell the rifle he does not suffer the dramatic loss of resale that he will with the "AI" version.... Further if he chooses to fire standard ammo in his gu n he does not lose velocity due to the "AI" chambering..... Also he don't pay more for the dies....and don't waste a lot of time fireforming.... AI=BS /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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In today's age there are better ways to gain velocity like using the 30-06 cylinder, 2.65" long cylinder case and gain the extra 0.150" of case capacity or just going to a belted mag or RUM/WSM case...the AI came about for many reasons way back when there were few chrono's, but the BS factor was just as high as it is today.  I've done 3 AI's for myself...7x57 AI, 257 AI and the 250 Sav AI(which is still trucking along in my rack) the rest went for other projects, and I've had many friends and aquaintances that went the AI route including a 30-06 AI, more for the mechanical advantages than the slightlybetter velocity. One swore it was better than a 300 Win at killing...I think it was just because he shot it much better. When I brought in the first chrono to the area, he was first in line. I lost a good friend and hunting partner that day...the chrono showed he was actually getting less velocity than another friends standard '06. He packed up and I don't think he ever came back to the club and stopped hunting with friends who went back many years to high school. A rough way to estimate any velocity advantage is to divide the larger case into the smaller case capacity, subtract that percentage from 100 and multiply that number by the original velocity...it doesn't matter if it is an AI case or just a larger/smaller case...then take a quarter of that result. You will see just how small the velocity advantage is compared to the cost. If you want a good comparison check out Noslers 5 the edition and the difference between the 280 and the 280 AI. The 280 has a 26" bbl and the AI has a 24" bbl which will make a bit more difference, but the gain 3152 fs for the standard and 3196 fs for the AI. AI's run from 3% to 10% more case capacity. If you want to do an AI for the better reloadability and case life, less stretch/less trimming I would say OK, but if it is for the velocity...that is a phools dream. There are plenty of larger case 30 cals you could choose from to rechamber and the cost would be about the same as doing the AI. That goes for ALL the other various iterations like the Gibbs and ICL Caribou. Luck | |||
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I had one, not worth the difference and trouble of fire forming. Red | |||
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In considering a standard 30-06 vs a 30-06AI, I would not do an AI. I did look at doing it many years ago, and decided it was a waste of money as the improvement just isn't there. I also had a 35 Whelen AI that was a bust as far as improvement in velocity is concerened. A total waste of money it was. I now have a 250 Savage AI that I like very much as it duplicated 257 Roberts velocities and is a natural short action chambering. The rifle flat shoots very well. | |||
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____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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| One of Us |
 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
50% reduction in the value of the resulting rifle for 3.6% increase in velocity ... thanks, but no thanks .. if i deceide to woldcat, i go all in ... and a 30-06 can be loaded to within 100fps of any ai version that can use parent brass ... woods, seriously, you know he means 30-06 vs 30-06 AI .. 1/4 of capacity increase percentage in velocity ... if you increase a case 10%, you realise 2.5% gain in vel ... 2800fps *1.025=2870 fps ... 70 fps aint interesting, much less for a custom everything opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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IMO this is the best post on this thread.....
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Informative stuff. However...my own experience teaches me that any calibre with the word "improved" in it needed no improvement. Rarely any harm in it, so long as we understand that it's a hobby rather than a calculated real-world ballistics decision. | |||
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I don't think there is any HARM in doing it, I just don't think the benefits make up for the hassle. I don't "enjoy" reloading per se, I do it for performance, cost benefit, availability. I have a 35 whelen AI, it is my favorite rifle though, even though I haven't shot it in a few years (needed work) and if it wasn't a gift, and didn't perform so well (which I attribute to the 26" tube as much as to the improvement) I'd have that bastard blown out to 358 Norma. In fact I think about it all the time. Red PS my stepfather, who gave me the rifle, has an article out of a gun rag that discusses "efficient" cartridges, and the 35whelen ai and 7x57ai are according to that author the two most efficient. | |||
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A better way to "get a bit more" would be to get it rebored to 35 Whelen. . | |||
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I have a 338/06.. that is a good step up when the game get bigger.. at the same time, know a guy who was thinking of the AI in his 06, and instead he did what I thought was kind of cool and accomplished the same thing.. he used 280 Rem brass and had his 06 rechambered to its forerunner.. the 1903 30 Caliber Government...and like me, he runs 4831 SC to squeeze the most out of it.. out of my 06s, that powder can substantially boost MVs with the 190 to 220 grain bullets... however some others have posted that trying it, they did not experience the same results that my chronograph said..so YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY definitely applies.. | |||
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Interesting division of thought. Yes, for practical reasons and No, for practical reasons. The 06 has plenty of energy already so going up to the whelen is contrary to the point IMO. I would go up if it was only about the energy. I can see the point shared by those who view reloading as a chore but I personally enjoy it. I need more craft time at the house these days anyway. Velocity is a bonus but I agree that if your reloading anyway, the margin is smaller between them. 50 fps does not seem like enough gain. Not having one I am relying upon book data which shows greater gains. No discussion on Flattening the trajectory of the 180/200 bullets however small. That was the original purpose for all the medium bore magnums. I am considering going all in with a 338-06 ground up build or an 06 improved. I think the 338 offers the slight energy advantage while the 06 offers the slight velocity/trajectory advantage. I am consumed with indecision because I already have a well loved 270 and feel that the 06 would ultimately replace it but fear taking on a build project in a popular but still rare cartridge. Captain Finlander | |||
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No, it's just not worth the trouble, dies, fire-forming etc. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
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