I decided to put this on a different post instead of burying it on another post that has become long and heated.

I put on there that I do not personally use or advocate Match Kings for hunting. I don't push my opinion, that is my answer when asked by someone. I stick with what works for me, Round Noses, older calibers that don't have to have a ton of kick as I believe in the power of shot placement and sectional density over velocity for penetration potential, Nosler Ballistic tips at reduced velocities and Partitions at un reduced velocities.

However I also go out and do a lot of tests in my free time to prove or disprove things I have always heard. Some things hold true and I observe just the opposite on others. So I have offered some of those observations just to share.
On here it just becomes an invitation to have one's intelligence and family lineage questioned.

For all the people who have said Match Kings are not to be used on game, How Many offering these experiences have had FAILURE EXPERIENCE????

I have only glanced at some of the responses. If you have had failure and brought it up, that is constructive. However I did not notice that highlighted. If someone did, I am sorry I did not see it in my scanning of the topic and did not read all word for word.

I have noticed a pattern on here, of people dispelling someone else's experiences. However it is based on what they have read, or what they have been told. ONE experience, positive or negative carries more weight than alot of theory or hearsay.

I am sure the day each person using Matchkings for hunting experience a failure will probably question it, or just start looking for another bullet to use. But until then, why should someone change or have his intelligence questioned, by others who speak of no actual hands on experience.

Just my Humble Opinion folks.
THIS IS ALSO JUST POSTED AS AN OBSERVATION AND IS NOT AN INVITATION TO HAVE MY INTELLEGENCE QUESTIONED OR MY FAMILY TREE QUESTIONED BY ANY 'SITTING AT THEIR COMPUTER' EXPERTS.

They work is all I'll say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use .264/6.5mm 140 gr. MK's in my 6.5-300 Wby. over 83 gr. H870. Leaving at 3350 fps, they usually blow up on contact with firm dirt.
Even with low angle hits (groundhog shooting) I've found 4" craters in the pasture with bullet jacket fragments lying in them at 200 yards from the muzzle.

A 100 yard texas heart shot on a nuisance beaver entered at the root of the tail and did not exit. It would have taken 24" of penetration to get out again. The internals did sort of gurgle back and forth from one end to the other when you move him, though.

I am driving them kind of fast and wouldn't shoot a game animal with one with that rig.

[ 07-20-2003, 03:03: Message edited by: eshell ]

Just say no.....

I'll relate my Matchking experience.
Matchkings are used in factory 308 Win by the majority of Police [and now Military] Snipers. Their performance in Ballistic Gellatin is well documented. I wanted to shoot some game with them to see how they did in the "real" world.
The load was factory Federal Match with 168gr Sierra Matchkings, the rifle a Remington Model 7.

The following accounts are from my notes made on the respective day it occured.

11/08/95
First up, Tom Turkey [10.5" Beard ] 32 yards bullet hit point of wing as he fed. Exit wound showed signs of fragmentation, pieces of jacket and lead were recovered from a tree behind the turkey. Bird went right down.

11/16/95
Two wild hogs, jumped both of them at the same time.
Hog number 1 hit at 42 yards. Bullet hit behind shoulder, ranged foward through spine, neck area. Massive damage, recovered bullet in two pieces, jacket nose and sideways flattened core. hog went down immediately, did not kick.
After shooting hog #1 I ran about 10 yards and shot hog number 2.
Number 2 was hit at 52 yards as it ran away. Bullet entered in front of rear ham along side of ribcage. Destroyed liver and angled into lung area. Partial exit on same side of body as entry near head. Recovered 2 pieces of bullet which had broken in half. Hog number 2 went down immediately and kicked for about 20 to 30 seconds.

11/19/95
Coyote was spotted while deer hunting. Played "cat and mouse" with him for quite a while, loosing sight of him several times, his continued howling kept giving him away [he never knew I was around], until I had a shot at him across a valley. Distance 160 to 170 yards. Shot fired prone, hasty sling, coyote was walking slightly down hill almost directly toward me. Bullet hit behind shoulder just to the left of the spine and exited the rear ham near the anus. Coyote went right down. There were very minimal signs of expansion. I have a full body mount of this coyote.

I HAVE NOT used Matchkings since. They do not perform as a hunting bullet should. They did not demonstrate enough penetration on the hogs to suit me. Their penetration will not usually be in a straight line. If the velocity is high enough the bullet will yaw and break into usually 2 pieces. This has been demonstrated in ballistic gelatin and in actual shootings by Police Snipers.
If the velocity is to high it could fragement.
The matchking did not show enough expansion/fragmentation on the 175 yard coyote to suit me.
The Matchking killed all the game I shot with it just fine, sort of inspite of itself.
They are not enginered/designed as hunting bullets. Even the maker Sierra states this.
Sooner or later this might cause a problem, such as a wounded animal. I think the animal deserves better. I try to use the best bullet for the job.

[ 07-20-2003, 03:32: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~!!!!!!!!

SEAFIRE AND ALL OTHERS INTERESTED... PLEASE, PLEASE DO A SEARCH ON THE SUBJECT. WE HAVE LITERALY A THOUSAND OR MORE REPLIES ON ONE MATCHKING THREAD ALONE!!

[ 07-20-2003, 03:44: Message edited by: smallfry ]

As I mentioned on the other thread, I've used Sierra Matchkings (168 gr. MK/300 Win. Mag. @3207 fps. MV) on about a dozen head of big game. These animals have included pronghorn, mule deer, Coues whitetails, and Texas whitetails.

Performance has run the gamut from acceptable expansion and full penetration to explosive blowups as well as pencil-hole expansion with both full and extremely shallow penetration.

An example of acceptable performance: Coues whitetail, Sonora Mexico, 518 measured yards (Leica Geovid), full penetration and expansion through both lungs. Witness: Kirk Kelso, owner, Pusch Ridge Outfitters, Tuscon AZ, and my friend Todd Erickson, who lives right here in Yamhill Co, OR.

An example of unacceptable penetration and no expansion: Mule deer buck, Malhuer Co., OR. This buck was running at just under 200 yards. I led him and fired; he stumbled but didn't go down, so I shot him again and he went down like a ton of bricks. The first bullet hit him squarely in the shoulder, but penetrated just 1" (that's right, 1"!) and did not open up. The second shot went through both lungs and blew up in said lungs with no exit wound.

An example of a bombastic blowup: Pronghorn, 170 yards, Soccoro Co., New Mexico. This buck was hit on the point of the left shoulder and went down instantly. The bullet exited just behind the right shoulder. The exit wound was so violent that the cape was utterly destroyed and had to be replaced. Witnesses: Jim Carmichel, Shooting Editor, "Outdoor Life" magazine, and Brad Ruddell of Weatherby, Inc.

Examples such as these are the reason Sierra does not advise the Matchking for big game hunting, and neither do I. I would not consider using them for elk, moose, bear, or African hunting of any kind. This bullet was not designed for big game hunting, and its unpredictable performance underscores that reality. As always, hunting performance is based on much more than a tiny cluster of holes on a piece of paper, and tiny groups are easy enough to achieve with good, well-designed hunting bullets anyway.

There's a reason that (for example) Sierra offers Pro Hunter and Game King bullets specifically for hunting. There's a reason that Nosler offers match bullets for shooting paper and the Partition for shooting big game. In a nutshell, the reason is predictable, consistent terminal performance at all normal hunting ranges.

Why do you think that the Nosler Partition is the most widely endorsed bullet by surveyed North American hunting guides ("American Hunting Rifles" by Craig Boddington, page 405) and that not one single member of this group endorsed match bullets of ANY kind?

Why has that same Nosler Partition bullet been the most widely-used and trusted bullet by surveyed members of the Rocky Mountian elk foundation year after year, with none of them endorsing the Sierra MK?

Why has every single African professional hunter I've ever been in the bush with been so very particular about bullet construction and performance, no matter the game hunted? Most of these guys see more anuimals shot in a single season that most guys will in a lifetime, and none of them would recommend a bullet such as the MK for any hunting.

If anyone harbors some naive idea that all bullets are created equal, you're kidding yourself.........

AD

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!

ANOTHER MATCHKING THREAD!!!!

YYYYYIIIKEES!!

Why don't we ask Saeed about Matchkings?

Gates,

quote:

---

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!

ANOTHER MATCHKING THREAD!!!!

YYYYYIIIKEES!!

---

Ditto!

Sounds to me like the MK is capable of taking game, but does not provide the consistent performance that one should demand from a hunting bullet. Perhaps the ethical, meat-saving, and hide-saving choice is to leave the MKs for paper punching.


9.3

Allen, that's a darn fine post but I'm afraid it's probably wasted. Your conclusion's are reality-based showing the good and the bad. You obviously had no original predisposition against the MK or you wouldn't have been using them in the first place which means your observation's are unbiased. Still, like most of the writing done on these forums, the good stuff is ignored and the dim-bulbs clamor to the BS and hype. Many come here to find reinforcement for position's already held with little or no experience to back them up. To me, the MK argument is similar to the 243/Elk Rifle debate... it may work well once in a while but it's bound to fail eventually. When it fails it'll be a big failure and one that simply could have been avoided by not trying to turn a good paper bullet into something it wasn't designed for.

What are Matchkings??

Seafire, this thread is a great way to seperate opinions based on experience from those that can be immediately dismissed.

I believe 99.9% of all claimed bullet failures are actually marksmanship failures in cases where the animal is not recovered. However, there are honest bullet failures from excess velocity or insufficient velocity, the bullet impacting something prior to flesh, or simply a problem with the bullet.

Allen Day, your results are typical to opinions I have heard expressed of every bullet made. I have even been told of Partitions that blew the nose off on heavy bone so the core left a caliber size hole through it's path, and other cases where the nose flattened and limited penetration. For every 2 hunters that have had fantastic results with Failsafes and Xs there is 1 that badmouths them at every oportunity swearing to never load one again, and often citing narrow wound channels. Game Kings and Ballistic Tips lead the list of blow ups. Animal bodies are not uniform and all hits are not equal, therefore erratic bullet performance is more the norm than the exception.

I do not think all bullets are equal any more than all marksman are equal. Likewise, all hunters are not equal and many never take the strengths and weaknesses of a bullet into consideratin when planning a shot.

I have had perfect results on game with every centerfire rifle and both pistol calibers I have used on game. I have never had a bullet failure with any bullet I have used. A followup shot has never been required. All animals have gone down less than 100 yds from where their positions prior to the shot.

Recently, I have taken 3 feral hogs with 190 gr Match Kings fired from a .300WSM, 2 at 675 yds and one less than 70 yds. Neither took a single step after being hit. The 2 at 675 were broadside or nearly so. Exit wounds were the size of my palm. The close range shot was center on a hog facing directly toward me. Thoracic and gastric cavities were both scrambled and the mess was such that I abandoned attempts to recover the bullet.

I took 2 whitetails aprox broadside with 190 gr bthp match bullets from a .300 WinMag near 20 years ago. I loaded both Hornady and Sierra and I cannot say for sure which manufacturer those were by. Both deer died upon the spot which they stood.

It is likely I used SMKs on a few whitetails from a .308 but I do not recall specifically doing so. To the best of my memory I brained a great majority of the animals I shot with that caliber which would render the results meaningless to this discussion.

Perhaps Steve Ricciardelli will add his vast satisfactory experience with MKs to this thread.

I am also interested in Saeed's results with MKs that GateHouse mentioned. Are there any threads with specifics?

[ 07-20-2003, 12:00: Message edited by: RuffHewn ]

Allen you had a MK not open up and only give 1 inch of penetration. the next one blew up. If it did not open up or blow up why would it not give more then 1 inch of penetration. Something strange there. I find it hard to belive that a bullet that acted like a fmj give only 1 inch of penetration. Even if it trumble it would do better then that. If just stopped only after 1 inch right. Any 168 gr bullet at 3200 fps at 200 yards well nave more then 1inch of penetration. One that didn't open up well even have more.

There are just too many fine bullets on the market for me to be wasting time with a bullet made for punching paper. Since there are a thousand post on this subject on another thread, I'll just say no I don't and will not ever use them for hunting.
Terry

I dont have a dog in this fight, so to speak. But, to the folks that use and swear by the MK.
Is it "the finest hunting bullet" you can find??
Iam asking this respectfully.
I would think that the Barnes "X" would give you the accuracy plus the performance on impact. Those are my conclusions. I have no problem shooting a North Carolina White-tail with a MK, but anything bigger, I would, and have found something else...The "X"..And I realize some of them have failed on game, as have all bullets.

p dog shooter, I report what happened in my experience. That's all I can tell you, and whether or not you choose to accept my testimony is entirely up to you. You're right, something is wrong there - something with the bullet....

ruffhewn, to imply that Nosler Partitions are just as fragile and unpredicatable as MKs is an incredible ridiculous premise to operate under. I've taken much game with Nosler Partitions in a lot a places for a lot of years, and I have quite a collection of recovered specimens in my collection. If there's a word to describe the performance of Nosler Partitions on game, that word would be "consistent". I've never seen a Partition that didn't get inside, open up, and keep on going. Some retained the front core, some didn't, but in every case the bullet continued to penetrate and either exit or stop under the hide on the opposite side. Mostly I've had 'em exit. No blowups; no pencil-holes; no stops without getting inside - just consistent performance. As hard as this is for you to swallow, the only similarity between the Partition and the MK is that they're both bullets.

I'll tell you about another great true hunting bullet that showcases what consistent, versatile terminal performance is all about, and that's Winchester's Fail-Safe. I have quite a few recovered specimens of this bullet as well, and I've taken over fifty big game animals with Fail-Safe bullets - everything from Texas whitetails and Oregon elk to lion, leopard, cape buffalo, and grizzly. I knocked over thirty-six animals on one one safari with 180 gr. Fail-Safes out of a .300 Win. Mag., including antelope that are the size of a small dog, up to eland that weigh a ton, plus lion, leopard, and a brace of cape buffalo. Ranges varied between seventeen feet up to 300 yards. In every case, and no matter the size of the animal or the distance, those Fail-Safes would get inside, open up, and keep on going. No failures, no surprises - just consistent performance. But I'm sure in your mind MKs would have done just as well. Yeah....

I could go on about the Fail-Safe on N. American game plus the performance of other good HUNTING bullets, but Brad, you're right, I think I'm wasting my time. The Great Motherhood Theory rules cyberspace hunting discussions. ALL bullets must surely be created equal and must surely work the same. How could it be any other way? Some are just more accurate on paper than others - that's all!

That's what I thought when I was about fifteen years old as well, but the last thirty years have hardened me...........

AD

seafire

Look what you have done,soon we will have annother fantastic phone book loong thread

My opinion about matchkings is classified, soo no coments please

/ JOHAN

YAWN!!!

Maybe I should start putting woodscrews in with a hammer...

Allen, that's all well and good but RuffHewn has killed a couple of pigs with MatchKing's and he knows all that needs to be known about hunting bullets... sure.

Maybe the moderator should transfer all this over to the MK tread so we can get a few more pages.

9.3X62,

quote:

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Maybe I should start putting woodscrews in with a hammer...

---

You mean you don't??

[ 07-21-2003, 04:00: Message edited by: savage49494 ]

PDogShooter, only 1" of penetration seems unbelievable but Allen's MK may have impacted some obstacle prior to the animal. It is a fairly common occurance when running game is engaged.

AllenDay, by no bullet failures, you are saying that all those animals hit with a FailSafe went down with the one shot? You and I both fire .300 mags, both shoot MKs, and one of us has repetive bullet failures. Something is wrong and if it were the bullet Dan Lilja, Dave King, Boyd Heaton, PDogShooter, and myself must be the luckiest men alive since we are getting the MKs with no flaws. Every centerfire rifle and pistol bullet I have fired at an animal has resulted in the rapid death of that animal. Enough said.

Brad, once again you omit much when you attempt to represent what I have said. As I have asked before, is this intentional or are you that stupid? I hope you do not reproduce for you can only beget stupid offspring that will leach on the taxpayers for their support.

Also, AllenDay, I specifically stated all bullets are not equal. Are you related to Brad? All bullets are compromises. Ballistic Tips compromise penetration to produce a wider bullet path. FailSafes are the exact opposite. Partitions are a fair compromise but the exposed lead tip being deformed under recoil damages accuracy of any round that was in the magazine. The MatchKing compromises terminal performance while delivering better accuracy. Users of MatchKings understand the limitations and are competent enough to take advantage of the accuracy.

[ 07-21-2003, 04:33: Message edited by: RuffHewn ]

Savage:

Not on this side of the 49th we don't... perhaps we should start calling a hammer a "Canadian screwdriver"

I've got some 2.5" rocksalt loads for my 410 that are absolute murder on woodchucks.

9.3

My crew of a half a dozen guy's,and 50 or so other hunters I know have killed hundreds and I do mean hundreds of whitetail,mule deer,elk,black bear(Darryl Cassel killed one that Dan Lilja talks about on his web site)with a MK bullet.At ranges from 10 yards to close to 3000 yardsIf the nut behind the bolt does his or her job.The MK kills as good as any so called HUNTING bullet I've seen.It may be a TARGET bullet.But it also works as a HUNTING bullet...

Matchking, who needs a Matchking? Worn down crayons work for me. And I can't even recall how many head of big game I have downed with my muzzleloader using stale milkduds. You guys and your fancy-pants bullets...

9.3x62, you have a PM.

RuffHewn, why are you here again defending your choice of bullet? Shoot what you want and be on your merry way.

If you have confidence in yourself, that is........

I think many people who hunt believe if the animal dies within a reasonable distance, then "at what point did the bullet fail"? If the SMK or NBT were all of the bullet needed to hunt game then why do all of the bullet manuf. continue to refine their products & bring us "better" hunting bullets? Maybe we should have just stopped @ the PowerPoint & Corelokt, but then again Nosler thought he could build a better bullet for hunting big game and so we continue.
I have no experience using SMK on game because I choose not to try them based on the experience of others. Same reason I don't hunt big game w/ a .223 or .243, drink & drive, parachute w/o a reserve, ride a motorcyle @ high speed w/o helmet & leathers, etc. I would rather not suffer the failures of my predicessors.

seafire,

the 107gr MK's are so accurate in my 6,5x57R kipplaufb�chse that I could not resist the tempatation to try them on a roebuck.
roe are a very petite deer weighing an average of 55 pounds live weight.

I loaded them behind some Norma 204 for 3,125 fps and took a shot at a large roe buck at 238 yards. the buck was standing broadside an the bullet hit him befind the shoulder, square in the center.

I saw the bullet hit a small stone behind the buck that was blown to pieces.

I saw the buck run full speed for 100 yards or so with no sign whatsoever of being hit. Then I lost sight of the buck.

Waited for 20 minutes and took "Polka", my 18 month bayerische gebirgschweisshund (bavarian mountain blood hound), to the exact place where the buck was standing. Could not find any sign such as hair or blood nor anything, and the tracks the buck left did not show anything odd. Polka had no problem finding it, 150 yards away in a very thick growth of young pine trees, but I doubt I would have found it myself, since it left no blood at all. If the shot had been low in the chest a blood trail would have been more likely.

The bullet had not opened at all. It had penciled through with no expansion at all. A tiny entrance hole, a tiny hole through the lungs and a tiny exit, which may explain why the bullet hit with so much energy the stone behind.

Bullet performance may have been a fluke, I know, but I wont't try again.

montero

While I know that this thread has been discussed before, I wanted to see some feedback from current users of this site.

Herr Montero;

I particularly liked your reflection of your experience and explanation of it. That is exactly what I was looking for, positive or negative. I also highlight the way the experience was professionally and unbiasly submitted.

Allen Day: Another excellent posting of what I was looking for from a fellow Oregonian. Reflecting his experiences and documented it well and presented it professionally and in an informative manner.

I am a little at a loss of why some would criticize his reflected experiences. If he only got an inch of penetration, and that was total BS, what would his motivation be for making up something like that?? If someone has not experienced something screwy hunting, he either has not hunted much or should count his blessings for being so lucky.

Those who did moan ' not another Matchking thread'..... sorry guys, no one dragged ya in here. Several people responded that I really value there opinions, such as Fred338, Savage949494.... Ruff Hewn, Johan,.....9.3 X62

We all will use what works for us until it fails. Does not mean someone who has a different opinion born of different experiences than we have is an idiot, or deserves to be name called.

Thanks to all that submitted opinions and perspectives.

NOW LETS CLOSE IT AND MOVE ON TO SHARING MORE POSITIVE SUBJECTS.

[ 07-22-2003, 10:47: Message edited by: seafire ]

[QUOTE]

[ 07-22-2003, 10:46: Message edited by: seafire ]

SORRY, WRONG BUTTON HIT.

What's always facinated me about the MK, Ballistic Tip, and SST crowd is that they all seem to be good enough riflemen to actually USE the accuracy advantage that their bullets provide. They can to a man hold 1 1/2" at 300 yards from field positions. Superhumans one and all.

The hard truth thats seem to be hidden from so many is this: In a halfway accurate rifle the accuracy "advantage" that MK's enjoy is utterly meaningless. Who really can tell in the field the difference between a 3/8" rifle and a 3/4" rifle? Not a man on this planet can do that in the field from field positions.

As to using them, I have not and will not use MK's on game. I test every bullet I use before I shoot at things that bleed and in EVERY case regardless of make cup jacketed non-bonded bullets lose their cores when put up against strenuous tests. That to me is failure and is unacceptable.

In all fairness though, you may be able to get along quite nicely with conventional bullets for many years as long as you don't ask very much from them. Most whitetails will expire rather quickly when hit through the lungs with just about anything. Is that the measure of a great game bullet, you decide. Probably think Bushnell Sportviews are great scopes too!

Really though, we're dealing with percentages here. Each and every time one of my partitions hits meat it does exactly what the last one did; great penetration and explosive expansion on broadside shots all with NO surprises. Can you really say that of any conventional bullet?

Life's too short and time afield too precious to take risks with marginal bullets.

Gabe