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Would the MK proponents feel comfortable using them on a large coastal grizzly bear? | |||
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| one of us |
Gatehouse, I would not use Match Kings on the bears you refer to, and I would not use Game Kings either. However there invariably will be someone that has used one with success and will do so again. Also, I would not use the .256 Manlicher for such an endeavor but it has been done. It is curious that we, myself included, use larger more powerful cartridges and are more particular about bullets on the smallest deer than the great hunters of a century ago used on dangerous game and even the largest African animals. | |||
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Seafire, I apologize to you for engaging in what you deem inappropriate personal references on your thread, but when Brad and AllenDay misrepresented what I have said I felt it was warranted. Brad did the same in another thread in another section so I believe in his case it is a trend, either stemming from mental deficiency or a character flaw. As I have said before, I welcome disagreement and honest debate. | |||
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quote:To many this is not consistent. IMHO if the animal expired very quickly with the one shot the Partition delivered what was expected, and your marksmanship was adequate. As I have said before animal bodies are not consistent so there is no way for each recovered bullet to appear the same as every other. | |||
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One of Us |
Mr. Hewn, I'll never stoop to the juvenile name calling that you quite easily stoop to. I will say however, it's apparently in keeping with your character. You're a wanna-be pure and simple, with little coherant or original thought... apart from quoting others whose coat tails you ride. Your reason for starting the 300 WSM FOR PONGHORN TO ELK THREAD was not to glean information as you obviously and quickly showed in your second post on THAT thread. Rather you've attempted to generate attention... another typically juvenile move. Nope, you're a knat straining, camel swallower of the first order. Good luck with your MatchKing's, Murphy love ya... NB: There boys... there's been so much BS spewed regarding MK's I forgot which thread I was on... I've corrected the post but hold firm to the content and will never waste any more of my precious time on any thread RH is a primary in. PS RH, let's here again about those 12" thick elk... [ 07-23-2003, 10:16: Message edited by: Brad ] | |||
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Brad, Just as a little clarification, RuffHewn did not start this thread, I did ( Seafire). I had seen a lot of negativity on the subject, and I have noticed a pattern of way too many people attacking someone for sharing of information that they disagree with. My only point was for those that claim Match kings are not for game, I just wanted feedback from those that had EXPERIENCED FAILURE. As opposed to some others ( NOT MAKING ANY ACCUSATIONS TO ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL) who are just reinterating what they had heard or read, and are doing so with some sort of authority. I had some excellent responses, that were professionally submitted. I compliment those people as it was done in the spirit the question was asked. In defense of others who may get vicious at others, if one reads the flow of some of these posts, a lot of times they were the ones who were attacked most. Some people come on here more with the intent of arguing with someone, than to share information and experiences. It is important to see who fired the first shot on some of these posts. I blame them. For the guys that fire back, well like myself, maybe they need to exercise a little more self control and not bring themselves down to the first guys level. I submit that suggestion humbly and without malice to anyone. As some one said to me in an argument on here, and I second his point entirely. Arguing on here is akin to running in the special olympics. However I started this post, no one else. Thank you. | |||
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quote:Excellent suggestion Seafire but when I feel my statements are deliberately or repetitively misquoted I find it impossible to avoid delivering a harsh correction. From Brad's post claiming I started this thread I am now aware it is not intentional malice, only mistakes that he should not be faulted for. Seafire, note that I did not berate him for any of his personal attacks in that post. I will gently correct any further mistakes Brad makes with respect. | |||
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quote:If you were hunting grizzlies with your 300WSM that you intend to hunt elk and pronghorn with, what bullet would you use? | |||
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quote:On the other thread I stated that 12 inches, give or take a couple, is the thickness of all live elk I have observed. I was referring to the target zone, now known as "Boyd Heaton's spot", that is the area behind the junction of the scapula and humerus. This is a narrower section behind the shoulder and ahead of the spread of the ribs. I may have overestimated the thickness of the desert elk after reading Ray's post. Ray Atkinson posted from his experience of working with elk in pens, apparently healthy and well cared for animals, that 12-14 inches is the thickness of a live relaxed elk. He is posting from Idaho. These are not the wild elk roaming arid New Mexico. | |||
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quote:Gatehouse, I need some clarification. Are you now refering to the common griz in the interior of BC or the huge coastal browns of Alaska? On the huge bears, I would consider penetration more important that wound diameter and would choose a bullet with that in mind. The bullet must reach the vitals or the animal will likely suffer a slow death from infection. If you are now referring to the small common grizzly I might use a MK on one and have used a Game King. On the griz I took in Spring of 1983 my .270 Win 130 Game King from 180 yds was just fine. After the impact the bear did his shadow boxing routine then made one leap near the length of his body and landed on his chin and belly. That bear was no more than 510 lbs live. [ 07-26-2003, 00:51: Message edited by: RuffHewn ] | |||
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I use Sierra matchkings for woodchuck for no other reason than I have thousands of them around in different calibers. Most of my shooting is at the bench. I just grab a box I've loaded for bench use and head for the pastures. I've left tiny holes in chucks that I could barely find. I've also blown the little critters inside out with the same bullet. This is mainly with the .224 52gr. HPBT Match and the .243 70gr. HPBT Match. Sometimes they perform well, sometimes not. I guess that's why Sierra advises against their use. In the larger calibers I can't say. Best wishes. Cal - Montreal | |||
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quote:Hey Boyd, Saw your name as signed-in this morning and figured I hear from you concerning your all's observations concerning under/over expansion with the MatchKings. I figure you must have just missed the question. So, how `bout it??? [ 07-28-2003, 04:57: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Hot Core,...I'm not sure what your ? is.....They have proformed for me just like most so called hunting bullets.If you hit a shoulder blade they will blow a hole out the other side the size of a volley ball.I have had BT's do that too.If you hit them in a soft spot the exit is between golf ball and baseball size.Just like any other bullet.Hope I helped answer your ? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Hey Boyd, The original question was real simple - Have you all had any of those shots result in either over-expansion or under-expansion on the Game? But since that is creating a conflict for you, I'll go a bit more in depth. You mentioned your group of 50 guys using hundreds of MatchKings on Game. From a Statistical standpoint, that is a virtual Gold Mine of information available for all of us to learn from. And, as your signature relates, you are the "Assistant Pit Chairman.Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club", which means "to me" you belong to a group who in all likelyhood keeps very detailed records of all shots taken(paper or Game). So, it would be real interesting to hear what the MatchKing Performance Window actually is, rather than an overall impression. Needless to say, how the MatchKings perform at the actual Impact Velocity(IV) is what would be interesting instead of the actual distance to the Game. That way if a person is using a 308Win or a 300RUM, he can interpolate that IV to correlate the distance to the Game for his particular firearm. Statistically I'd expect a Bell Curve where at various IVs you all would experience the following: 1. At some(unknown to me) high IV you would be able to notice an unacceptably high percentage of Over-Expanded MatchKings, or basically the IV is just too high for the MatchKing Design Envelope. I'm not saying that above a specific IV 100% of all MatchKings will self destruct with shallow wounds as a result. But, your large group should be able to provide enough relevant data to be able to say do not use MatchKings where the expected IV will be above xxxxfps or the results will typically be unacceptable for xx% of the shots. 2. Then there would be an IV range(moving on to the Bell shaped portion of the Curve) where you do not get consistent Over-Expansion or Under-Expansion, but you would in all likelyhood see some indications of both. Perhaps this is a range where the IV is "somewhat" acceptable for the MatchKings to be able to Penetrate, Expand or Tumble and transfer some Energy to the Game resulting in humane kills. 3. Eventually the MatchKings will slow enough so the IV is not high enough and it will result in Under-Expansion(now off the Bell Curve). Here again, your large group should be able to provide enough relevant data to be able to say do not use MatchKings where the expected IV will be below xxxxfps or the results will typically be unacceptable for xx% of the shots. ... So, clarifying and expanding my original question.... A. What Impact Velocity has your large group experienced as typically too high to get acceptable On-Game performance from MatchKings? B. What Impact Velocity " range " has your large group experienced as typically correct to get acceptable On-Game performance from MatchKings? C. What Impact Velocity has your large group experienced as typically too low to get acceptable On-Game performance from MatchKings? I look forward to seeing what your large group database can provide for us. [ 07-29-2003, 03:18: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
I can only speak for the data I have.......This is just some mind you ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ......50 yards,220gr MK impact Vel was 3023fps.Crop damage doe facing away.Bullet entered just below the tail and exited on the left side between shoulder and brisket.Exit was the size of a softball....700 yards,240gr MK impact at 2099fps.Bullet hit just behind the close shoulder and exit through the off shoulder.Exit hole was also softball size.........220grMK at 960 yards Impact vel was 1600fps.Bullet hit six inch's down from the top of the back mid rib area.Bullet exit was about the size of a tennis ball....If you want lower velocity we will have to bring Darry back on this.They have worked for me from over 3000fps to 1600.......Sorry but I don't have anything bad to say about them.. | ||
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Hey Boyd, I do appreciate your response, but quoting 3 of your own shots is just not what I'm looking for. Since you have access to all these "MatchKing on Game" users, it is a real shame you don't take the opportunity to gather the data. I realize it would take awhile to get it, but it would sure be eye-opening. If you do choose to go after the data, I wish you the best of luck getting good cooperation with as many of those buddies as possible. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Hot Core,what I gave you was A high velocity impact...A mid velocity impact....And a low velocity impact.The bullets proformed as any so called hunting bullet should.I don't think I can answer your ? any better than that....... | ||
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This has to be the most tedious thread in history. Who cares if someone has taken on a personal crusade to prove to the world that MK's work on game? So what? A deftly-wielded brick will kill a deer. If someone wants to use varmint bullets or FMJs on game, that's their problem. I prefer to use optimally designed bullets on game. That doesn't guarantee that I will never have a bullet failure, either, but statistically the odds are in my favor as long as I can arrive at loads that satisfy me for accuracy. You pay your money and you take your choice. | |||
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| new member |
HotCore, I'll jump in here if ya don't mind. I didn't think so. We don't keep records on paper persay , as far as expansion goes. What we do have is Video of over 50 whitetails from 400 to 1150 yrds all resulted in very dead deer. Yes some exit holes were bigger than others but more of a result of what we hit upon entry. There is no pattern to over or under expansion at these various ranges it all depends on what the bullet comes in contact with upon entry. Hell you should have known that.. Matchkings and Amax will knock the snot out of a whitetail nomatter what range you hit them at. Keep in mind I've yet to shoot one over 2k..So what exactly do you need proof of??????? | |||
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Fireform, you hold a couple of opinions that I can not disagree with: 1. Game can be taken with most any projectile including a brick. Of course it is more important where you hit them than what you hit them with. The few British Marines I met that had hunted only in Africa swore by FMJs and solids. Australians military men who were once hunters that I conversed with used bullets much more frangible than Americans would consider on game. 2. The load must first be accurate. I stand by my long held opinion that practically all bullet failures are nothing more than a failure to place the bullet where it should have gone. However, no one here is trying to convince you to use a bullet other than what you are comfortable using. Matchkings work for many and have worked for me perfectly in my limited experience with them. I never had to shoot an animal twice with MKS, but I can also make that claim with every bullet I have used on game. | |||
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quote:Hey Boyd, One shot at each Velocity range is Statistically Irrelivalent. So, I do appreciate your response, but I agree that it appears you are unable to answer my questions. [ 07-30-2003, 04:45: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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quote:Hey PBLR, Interesting response to my questions which you say you also don't understand(see #4 above). 1. Seems strange that you all would not keep detailed records. Perhaps my idea of how a "1000 Yard Benchrest Club" in Pennsylvania operates is incorrect. But, that is besides the point. 2. Looks like you "may have" the basis for some Statistically Relevant data. Darn shame you haven't got it in a Data Base Format. 3. No, I've never used a MatchKing on Game. Have used a few 0.224" and 0.243" MatchKings on some Varmints. But, I can't recommend them for Varmints since there are much better specifically designed Varmint bullets available . And I do like to use MatchKings to Benchmark a new rifle/barrel. But, no I've never used a MatchKing on Game. 4. Since you are apparently unable to comprehend my detailed question to Boyd, I'll close with pretty much the same thing I told Boyd: I do appreciate your response, but it appears you are unable to answer my questions. | |||
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Ruffhewn: I know you pretend to be interested in other people's opinions of what you shoot. This is only a pretense, though--you're just grinding your axe. For my part, I'll be blunt. I'm not interested in your opinion. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
1. Seems strange that you all would not keep detailed records. Perhaps my idea of how a "1000 Yard Benchrest Club" in Pennsylvania operates is incorrect. But, that is besides the point.......What the hell does that have to do with Killing deer and such with MK's | ||
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I am not a moderator on this forum. However as author of this thread, it was not my intention to give one person an invitation to do a negative response to another person, that contained slander or malice in it. I apologize but the response given by Fireform to RuffHewn is exactly what I was trying to avoid. It proves my point earlier of reading what someone says and then what is responded by another and in what mannner. One person accusing another of just "pretending to be interested in other peoples opinions...." strikes me as strictly an opinion as one can not know what another persons motivations are. Secondly, a person stating that he is not interested in the opinions of another.... well no one drug anyone in here, and no one is making them read anything. This is slanderous and has no place on any communication where hunters and shooters are sharing information. People can use the same thing as I do, and have totally different results than I do. Either positive or negative. But where do any one of us come off criticizing the other persons opinions or experience? Fireform, this is not a personal invitation to initiate a personal response back to me being slanderous or derogatory. As hunters and shooters we need to be concerned about our environment, and give no reason for the anti gun people to have something to use against us. That includes in here. My opinion and mine alone. | |||
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HotCore, First off I don't belong to the 1000yrd BR Club. I only speak of our hunting crew and our experiences. The 1000yrd Club can speak for themselves. A. What Impact Velocity has your large group experienced as typically too high to get acceptable On-Game performance from Matchkings? Answer: I have never experienced this yet with the matchking. (What you deem acceptable , I may not) Usually run muzzle velocities at between 2900fps and 3100fps. All animals shot with the matchkings have had complete passthrus with exiting wound channels from silver dollar size to softball size. This has always had direct results from what matter was hit upon entry. Our personal closest impact with a MK has been 400yrds. Say 2400 fps B. What Impact Velocity " range " has your large group experienced as typically correct to get acceptable On-Game performance from MatchKings? Answer: I can only speak of what we personally have experienced avg. 2400fps to 1400fps Others have used them at higher and lower IV's. C. What Impact Velocity has your large group experienced as typically too low to get acceptable On-Game performance from MatchKings? Answer: Haven't experienced this yet! Don't usually shoot to ranges that bullet will be subsonic. 2000+ yrds. Hope this Helped........ | |||
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[ 07-30-2003, 06:08: Message edited by: PBLR ] | |||
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Hot Core, please publish studies exactly like you outlined for every bullet you've ever used on big game. Thanks. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Jon,he is just baiting the hook.But nobody is biting | ||
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| <Darryl Cassel> |
Boyd Just when I had many Match King kills over the last 30 years documented and ready to respond on this topic. I even had the energy levels as low as 800 Foot pounds and as high as 3500 Foot pounds and with bullet entrance velocities (into game) from 1200 FPS up to 3300 Fps with a range from 80 yards up to 2100 yards. Even the exit holes and wound channels were documented and ready to share with those honestly interested. Now I don't think it's worth the effort at all. I think everyone should just shoot the bullet they are comfortable with and we (I'm part of the 50 Boyd mentioned) will continue to use the Match Kings. Many of us found out a long time ago just how good that bullet is as a hunting projectile on deer and elk. As a matter of fact, we were probably using the MK or match bullets for hunting before many of you on this forum were born. Darryl Cassel As an add on here, it wasn't 30 years it was 43 years now. Man, time flies by when your having fun. [ 07-30-2003, 07:29: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ] | ||
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Fireform, I do not know how to respond. I am emotionally and psychologically injured by your response. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Seafire, thanks for taking an interest in the content of your thread. | |||
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Darryl, I believe myself and many of the members here to be intelligent enough to gain from other's experiences. Please post as much info as possible on kills with MKs. [ 07-30-2003, 07:30: Message edited by: RuffHewn ] | |||
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quote:Hey Jon A, It would skew the original MatchKing thread and take way too much bandwidth. But, I do have the Data for a lot of bullets from many manufacturers that I've used(and personally witnessed used) over quite a long time. | |||
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quote:Hey Boyd, Your lack of response to my original and follow up questions told me basically what I'd expected concerning "your" experience with the MatchKings on Game. | |||
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quote:Hey PBLR, Yes indeed, it did help a lot. Good to see someone who actually has enough experience with the MatchKings on Game to be able to answer the questions with some clarity. Any rough estimates available for the number of shots at the various velocities? Using the Velocities you mentioned as a guideline, say: 1. # of MatchKing shots on Game from your group with an approximate IV of 2400-1900fps? 2. # of MatchKing shots on Game from your group with an approximate IV of 1899-1400fps? Since I've finally found someone with a good bit of experience using them, I do "seriously" appreciate your responses. Without attempting to put you on the spot, would you care to estimate(percentage wise) how many kills needed additional shots. Don't bother to include Game where the First shot was not in what we normally consider a "Kill Zone". That would unfairly skew the results in a negative direction. Thanks for the excellent "experienced" responses. [ 07-30-2003, 16:19: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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HotCore, I suggest excluding shots to the spine or brain, otherwise I could post results that would lead the inexperienced to believe the .308 Win firing 173 gr fmjbt is the deadliest weapon in the world. Also, Boyd Heaton has knowledge and experience that would benefit many here. Your question was a little unclear and even appeared hostile. I am becoming very aware that with written comm no one can interpret more of your meaning through inflection and tone of voice. Instead of being insulting, you should rephrase and ask again. | |||
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quote:YUP...SAY HELL NO! | |||
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quote:Hey RuffHewn, I agree that would definitely improve upon the Data I'm interested in. I just don't want to turn my questions into an insurmontable task for PBLR since he is apparently the only one using MatchKings on-Game, on a regular basis, who has the ability, experience and knowledge to actually answer the questions. I do find it REAL interesting that quite a few folks in this Thread mentioned having MatchKings "failures" on-Game in a relatively few shots. Then others such as PBLRs group seems not to experience failures at all with apparently many shots fired. Would you care to speculate why that is so? By the way, Semper Fi! quote:Before you joined this Board, there was a good bit of discussion concerning MatchKings on-Game. In fact, I seem to remember that Saeed ran some "limited" MatchKing Tests on-Game in Africa with good results - no failures (that I remember). Not being interested in ever using a MatchKing on-Game, I've only followed "some portions" of the previous MatchKing threads here. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing how they performed for other folks though. I do remember Boyd posted a good bit on the portions of those old Threads I bothered to read and for whatever the reasons, I was left with a different impression than yours concerning Boyd's actual knowledge and experience. That said, if his input will help you(or anyone else) make Clean one-shot Kills, more power to you. quote:So you and Seafire have taken on the self-proclaimed roles of Moderators, or is it Preachers? Neither of you have been on this Board long enough to understand that the STRENGTH of Saeed's Accurate Reloading Board is a complete Freedom of Speach. His Dubai Board supports the 1st Ammendment better than any Hunting related Board I've seen based anywhere, including the USA. I've never posted in a Vulgar manner, and will continue to choose whatever "tone" I desire. That said, I'll extend a "courteous offer" to you. Look to the left side of your screen and when you see "Hot Core", feel free to scroll right on by so my tone doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities. (Get your heels together and thumbs by your seams if you choose to continue reading my posts. )And RuffHewn, if you've made it this far, the very best of luck to you on your Hunts using the MatchKings! [ 08-01-2003, 02:13: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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| new member |
Hot Core, 1. # of Matchkings shot on Game from your group with an approximate IV of 2400 to 1900 fps. Answer: 70+ None requiring a second shot......... 2. # of Matchkings shot on Game from your group with an approximate IV of 1899 to 1400 fps. Answer: 30+ None requiring a second shot......... These are approximate, with such a fine line deviding the fps it is really hard to tell actual in each catagory..Velocity is based on alot of small variables at any given range...These #'s are all based on Whitetail. Approximate # of Matchking only kills excluding Ballistic Tips and Amaxs. | |||
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