Hey PBLR, A sincere Thank You Sir for absolutely great Statistically Relevant Data.

I understand about the dividing line creating an additional level of Data shuffling for you and appreciate your effort. You have now confirmed a good solid 100+ MatchKing On-Game Data Base with 100% success. My congratulations to you and your buddies on the great "One-Shot Kills".

I'd mentioned to RuffHewn in the post above: "I do find it REAL interesting that quite a few folks in this Thread mentioned having MatchKings "failures" on-Game in a relatively few shots. Then others such as PBLRs group seems not to experience failures at all with apparently many shots fired."

My background is in Product Evaluation Engineering, Reliability and as usual enough Statistics to drive a person to(an occasional) drink. I was in it a very long time and have a great deal of humble respect for Statistical Sampling Plans. MilStd-105D has the uncanny ability to locate a Defective Lot by Random Sampling in accordance with it's Tables.(Defective Lot: A Lot of items which contains an item or items with a characteristic which does not meet Specification.) Basically, we are doing a Random Sample here concerning the Performance of MatchKings On-Game.

With that background nagging at me, it is unusually strange for some people to use a relatively small number of MatchKings and be witness to various Failures while a larger group with a high bullet count is seeing none at all. I'd have expected the exact opposite to be true with the higher count group experiencing some Failures while the people with less experience using them perhaps not seeing any Failures.

Would you(or anyone else) care to speculate on why that is so?

...

There is a Technical term for it called URSA - Unexplained Random Statistical Aberration. Normally unacceptable to even mention the URSA possibility in a manufacturing environment, since there is no "Corrective Action" possible for such a fiasco.

Before anyone attempts to imply that PBLR's Data of a 100% success rate, or the information of MatchKing Failures provided by Allen (and the other posters experiencing Failures) must mean "someone" is pulling a Clinton on us, let me be the first to say I've no reason to doubt the honesty of those specific posters. I believe they are simply reporting what they experienced and appreciate their doing so.

Hot Core:

My compliments to a very professional and courteous posting above. While this board does allow freedom of speech, some use it as a crutch to open their mouths are let anything they dam well care to roll off of their tongue.

Freedom of speech does not excuse anyone one of us from common courtesy. If you are a native of North Carolina, I am sure you were raised with the same manners, courtesy and respect that I was raised with in Virginia.

In my experience most guys I ever meet that hunt and shoot are a lot more orientated to courtesy and manners than those who do not.

Your choice, My apology or Nice Recover.
Either way you have my respect.

Not my intention to offend or insult anyone on here. I enjoy reading many of your posts, and the information that you share with others, and will continue to do so.

Thank you.

[ 08-01-2003, 10:55: Message edited by: seafire ]

After being involved in all three match king treads, I find that there are two types of shooters: those to think match kings are fine game bullets, and those who don't. Those who don't come up with Sierra doesn't recommend, or I heard from some one else they don't work. Or come up with wild stories about failure, like a match king starting at 3200fps and failing to expand then failing to penetrate more than one inch. You can't have it both ways. Then the other group who has shot lots of game with them and has had no trouble. The first group will always find a reason not to use them. The second will go on useing them with good results.

Hey p dog shooter, I agree.

Any ideas on why the two groups see such a difference in actual on-Game performance? Maybe I've not said it in these words - I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT!!!

p shooter, by "wild stories", obviously you're referring an episode I described previously on this thread. If you don't want to believe me too damn bad, but that episode happens to be true, and that deer was examined by two other guys who I have hunted with for over twenty years.

If you want to remain in denial about MKs, that's OK by me, just don't hide behind a computer screen and a phony handle and imply that I'm making up stories. I'll put my credibility on the line any time.........

AD

[ 08-01-2003, 17:40: Message edited by: allen day ]

Woops,looks like I might have agreed with p dog shooter a bit too quickly.

Allen, if he was in fact refering to your post, I can't agree with him at all. As I said before, I don't think you are relating anything but the truth in what you actually experienced.

Would you care to speculate on why there is such a reported difference in experience with the MatchKings?

Hot Core, I don't know about anyone's experiences other than my own. That's all I can go by.

The long and short of it is, hunting bullets are for hunting, and target bullets are for punching paper. Overwhelmingly, the big game hunting community and the bullet manufacturers themselves agree with that basic assessment.

There's no need to force a target bullet into the role of a hunting bullet anyway, since there are so many extremely accurate and well-constructed true hunting bullets on the market in the first place. For example, I have a pair of .300 Winchester Magnums that will regularly shoot 180 gr. Nosler Partition SPs into groups of 1/2" or less at 100 yards, and under 1" at 200 yds. On occasion, I've produced groups of just a little over 1" at 300 yds. with these rifles. Under field conditions, I have never found a use for greater fundamental accuracy than that under any circumstances.

AD

Allen:

Your last point is still the best, and the one that the MK proponents still can't grasp. That being, you could never hope to use better than half minute accuracy in the field even in your wildest dreams or delusions. The folks that claim to need the MK's accuracy really are in need of a trip to the gunsmith to find out why their rifle won't shoot game bullets well (perhaps they never tried). Great point.

I have yet to meet a truly "good" rifle that won't shoot 3/4 minute with one of the great game bullets. Why do you need better than that? So you can fling lead out to 2000+ yds?

Shooting past 600 yds. on a live animal is fundamentally unethical. Even past 400 yds. is really pushing the issue. The marksmanship issue has nothing to do with it. The time of the bullets flight IS. Shooting past 600 is the work of slob "hunters" and the "data" gained thereby utterly irrelevent.

The crux of this issue is that we are trying to gain the nth degree of accuracy (at an obvious sacrifice of terminal performance) to make possible what should not be attempted in the first place. Remeber rule #1 ? Get close, and then get ten yards closer.

I don't mean to sound too shrill, if I do, I am truly sorry. But as you shoot more and more at extended distances you will realize that there are variables that are simply beyound even the best rifleman's control. It is that very realization and finding you ethical limits that will make you your best.

Gabe

Well said, Papa.

Gabe, you're right on all counts.

Super-accuracy for its own sake has very much become an icon that can cloud all reason to the point of absurdity. I've found that such accuracy can become a very bitter bargain indeed if you have to sacrifice a bullet's structural integrity in order to achieve it. As you said, if a rifle is well put together to begin with, it'll shoot most good bullets well, and plenty good enough for conventional hunting purposes even at extended ranges. Actually, I have yet to see a big game hunting situation where a 1" rifle was incapable of delivering all the fundamental accuracy required for the task at hand.

AD

I know, it's all a vast coverup! Matchkings are really the very best hunting bullet, Sierra must be lying, yea that's the ticket. I can see the press conference now, with the President of Sierra saying, "I never shot a head of big game with a Matchking, not one time".

Kidding aside, the really sad part about these threads, is that the young, impressionable or inexperienced, or less than exceptional rifleman will read these posts and conclude that shooting game with match bullets is ok. Shooting game purposely from 400 to 3000 yds is also ok.

Gentleman, shooting game over 400 yds routinely and on purpose is not hunting, it is match shooting with live targets.

I'm not going to make a value judgement, and charge anyone with being unethical, or a liar, but Mr. PBLR says the closest shot with a matchking was 400 yds. out to over 1000 yds.
and 100 plus one shot kills.

What is not said are the misses. If you miss with a matchking or any other bullets at say 600 yds, how do you know if it is a miss? If a deer shows no reaction to the shot, and runs off, is it a miss or a non-fatal hit?

Now Mr. PBLR and Mr. Heaton's crews may also never miss, which I will rank right up there "the check is in the mail". It may be, but how can you tell.

Regards,

Bob

Allen if you still belive what you saw was a 30 cal match king that started out at 3200 fps hitting a deer in the shoulder at 200 yards with a striking vel of over 2800 fps. That didn't expand and only had 1 in of penetration so be. -------------------------- I still do and well continue to use MK's on big game with good results.

After doing a very little research on the Sierra page, it appears that they say we can shoot any game we want with matchkings!

".25 Caliber 100 grain HPBT MatchKing Sierra has responded to the demands of loyal .25 caliber shooters with the introduction of our 100 grain HPBT MatchKing. This new bullet, stock number 1628 has it's roots in our .30 caliber 168 grain HPBT MatchKing, known around the world for it's unmatched accuracy. Designed with a length to allow magazine feeding, this bullet will prove to be a superb target bullet. No matter what your game, Sierra's newest MatchKing is up to the task."

To quote Sierra again, " No matter what your game, Sierra's newest MatchKing is up to the task."

Hmmmmm??

George

It has nothing to do with likes or dislikes, it has to do with ethics.

Shooting past 600 on live targets is unethical because even with the best equipment and operator, you simply cannot control all the variables. The target (which bleeds) can take a step, or get up out of it's bed. The wind can give a slight puff (no big deal at 200, HUGE deal at 600)........ thats even assuming the wind in your valley is the same as the wind in the next.

Do people that do this ever even watch deer in the wild? Sometimes deer move for completely random reasons. Ever feel the wind change from the left side of your face to the right side in the snap of the fingers? At closer distances these variables are somewhat more controllable just because the bullet's flight time is less. At extended distances, the variables simply CANNOT be controlled.

To me a miss is as good as a crippling shot, only much luckier. But that's the point, game animals deserve better than luck. Do these guys claim to never miss at these distances? If so, I'll be the first one to call LIAR . If they claim to never miss, they are claiming to do better under field conditions than the best people in the world can do off the bench.

Slobs come in all shapes and sizes and use all kinds of different tools. The common thread though is that they shoot past the distance at which they can reasonably guarantee a good hit. People need to not only know their limits but also the finite limits of the technology.

As far as being an enemy of shooters, I assure you that I'm not. I believe it is our collective responsability to guide our peers in the right direction. If I had said nothing, I would have been complicit in this nonsense.

Sometimes people make mistakes or don't think of the ramifications of their actions. We as hunters and shooters need to be better than that. We have plenty of problems from without, but if we don't police ourselves we will also allow problems to build from within. Chastening someone who needs it doesn't weaken us, it makes us stronger.

I think we can all drink to that.

Gabe

Yeah, what he said.

Papa got game.

p dog shooter, it sounds like you'd rather remain in hiding and yet still question my integrity, which does not speak well for you, I'm afraid. Sounds to me as though you're more familiar with hunting paper and maybe varmints than you are big game, but of course I'm sure I'm wrong about that!

Riddle of the day: Why were controlled-expansion, so-called premium bullets (Nosler Partition, etc.) developed in the first place, and why do so many veteran hunters and professional guides use and recommend such bullets?

No MK supporter on this entire, sorry, miserable thread has really touched that question, so maybe you will.........

AD

Papaschmud,

Excellent post sir. The only point we all have been missing, is that these gentleman are not shooting under "field conditions" as we know them.

For example as posted in the Big Game forum under the thread called "Berger Bullets on Big Game" posted by GerorgeNePA, and I quote;

"We hunt on a small (90acre) piece of land that is 85% fields. It's field shooting or nothing. The past 8 years the majority of my deer have been shot at 275 to 325 yards. The gun and load I used to use would produce 1/3 MOA. 1 inch groups at 300 yards. I have a sturdy table to shoot from, bipod and sand bag. We have shot deer at 433 yards, just behind and to the right of our 425 yard target."

They are bench shooting at big game, subsituting highly mobile, brown, 4 legged critters for paper targets. "Field shooting" with a benchrest and sand bags, using match rifles, scopes and bullets!

I guess it is legal, and although I will not impose my ethical standards on somebody else, I personally find this practice repugnent.

These folks certainly have the shooting skill, but their moral level is a half a bubble off of plumb, in my view.

Many folks hunt groundhogs and pdogs in much the same way, but the difference I think, is that with varmints just about any hit is a kill.

With deer, one can make a hit that is not a kill, and the poor animal can runoff, leaving the matchhunter to think it was a clean miss.

Certainly there can be no follow-up of a wounded animal. I cannot think of a worse tool than a match rifle with benchrest & sandbags(unless it has wheels) trapesing off into the wood looking for a wounded deer.

Perhaps the deer do not runoff, if they staked down or penned of course, but as these gentleman report that they have a 100% one shot kill record, perhaps this "wounding and missing" is not an issue.

These threads always leave me shaking my head, and wondering what in the hell are these boys thinking.

Regards,

Bob

Gabe and Bob and anyone else who cares,

I just tring to think of the proper way to phrase my response. I'm a little tired after working the overnight, so if I ramble a bit...

I won't speak for anyone else except me and the guys who hunt with me. We have never wounded a deer we did not recover. Misses? Yes we have had misses. Just like you, we do get down out of the bench and go look. 99% of the time, the deer will drop in the field, not always at the shot, but within 100yards. Everynow and then they do make it to the tree line. Then we'll find them just inside the woods. I hope this makes you a bit happier. Very seldom do they require a second shot. Go look for the dead or lost deer in the woods surrounding our hunting area, you won't find any. Sorry, we're not slobs.

We do know our limitations and the limitations of the rifles. We know what the wind does. Do you see many deer in open fields when it's real windy? Nice strong winds, varying direction and speed. No? Me either. Days like that are known as "gunshop tour days".

I submit to you that for every shot we screw up(we as a generic longrange or field shooter) 10 guys screw up the 50 yard gimmie in the woods.

I could go on about how when I worked in a gunshop, I tried to convince guys they didn't really want the super magnum for the "chance to take their animal at 500 or 600 yards". Because they won't shoot enough to know THEIR limits and the limits of their equipment. They of the "I buy one box of ammo every 4 years" brand.

Just because we don't hunt the same way doesn't mean I need to be preached to. We'd agree on many things, I'd suspect.

Now, I'm done, I'm going to bed. I'm going to dream of my trip to Maine in three weeks for bear. I hope to better last years long range kill by at least 5 yards or so. 60 yards is my personal best on black bear over bait(is that ok, or is that repulsive too)in Maine, so far. I also might go up for deer in November. Do you have any favorite longrange loads for a .444Marlin? The area I'll be stalking in has the chances for at least a 75 yard shot.

Not only am I a rat-bastard no good repulsive longrange hunter, I do the short stuff too.

P.S.
The Gemsbok cow below was shot in a very stiff wind(20mph or so) at 290 yards with a .416Rigby. You can see the entrance hole in the photo. Right where I wanted it, but not where I was aiming. I know what wind does and I called the 9 inches of wind on that shot. Not perfect but close enough.

[ 08-04-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: GeorgeInNePa ]

I am sure Allen that all of us that go preudonym's are low down skunks who have no experience. I have no dought that you belive you saw a bullet behave as you say. After seeing hundreds of big game animals shot with everthing from 22rf to the 45 calibers. I dought very much it could have happen as you say. If it hit something inbetween to slow it down maybe. But then it is kind of hard to blame the bullet. -----------After searching Sierra's web site several Sierra's manuels I find that they give no negative recomandation on using their MK's on game. I have heard of so called failures of the premiums also Strange things can happen to a bullet once they leave the muzzle.------------------ So Allen resort to all the personal attacks you want. Allen I haven't attacked you I still dought that any 168 gr bullet hitting a deer at 2800 fps plus that doesn't blow up instantaneously is only going to stop at 1 inch. If you can convince others that it happen so be it. You will not convince me. All the deer and elk that I have shot with MK"s they have prformed the same as any regular hunting type bullet.

p dog, you're still calling me a liar from your position of ignorance and annoymity, and you're still essentially ducking my question about premium bullets..........

AD

Allen what to you what to know about premiums. They were made because people wanted them. Do they work better in some situations yes. Do they work better in all No. I will say that more game has been killed by standard bullets then the premiums because more people use standard bullets. I will say that game has been wounded and lost by both more due to bad marksmanship then bullet failure. Will a premium pull your butt out of the ringer if you take or make a bad shot maybe maybe not. Do they give more pretration, most of the time ,is it always needed no.-------------------------------------------------------------Why to people want them advertising, Gun writers premoting them storys written about the rare failure of nonpremiums, something new, ect. The companys get to premote them and charge higher prices and make more profit. Because they are so called better.--------------- Do most hunters need them no ,will most hunter kill most of their game with them no. Are there rare occasions where they might of save the hunt yes. So use them if you see the need. Most the of the time there is no need for them.

p dog shooter:

this is from Sierra's website. FAQ regarding using MatchKings on game:

"No, it's not recommended. The MatchKing bullets are designed for pinpoint accuracy; with no consideration given to what might happen after impact. If the bullet has arrived on target accurately, its job is done at that point. Hunting bullets must perform in a certain manner after impact. Penetrating ability, expansion characteristics, and even profile must be considered when designing a hunting bullet. Use MatchKings for matches, and game bullets for hunting."

Here is a quote from Sierra's reloading manual (3rd edition pg 99):

"We are also aware that some hunters use the Matchking bullets for medium and heavy game. We can't recommend this, though, because these target bullets are not desigtned with the penetration and controlled expansion characteristics fo hunting bullets."

Now you can make whatever arguement you want to about the effectiveness of using Matchkings on game. If you want to use them and you understand their limitations and are willing to take only shots that do not stress the bullet, that's your business. It is probably true that a careful, precision rifleman with a MK at long range is more likely to make a humane kill than the guy who shoots at 50 yards without ever sighting in his rifle. But it is irrefutable that the manufacturer (Sierra) does not recommend the practice.

And I don't understand how you can say that "I find that they give no negative recommendation on using their MK's on game"

[ 08-06-2003, 06:09: Message edited by: olarmy ]

I would like to know how much diff in accuraty there is between the MK and the GK.
It must be substantial if the LR people insist on using the MK's.

Regards Martin

Gentlemen,

I just received the fall 2003 Shooter's Supply catalog. PMC is now offering Sierra Match Kings in some of their Silver Line Hunting Cartridges. Listed are .243 Win 85 gr, .308 Win 168 gr, .303 Brit 174 gr, as well as 52, 55, and 69 gr for .223 Rem.

Ruffhewn/eshell: thanks for the repl.
I asked because the best my 338/378 does with GK is 2 1/2--3' @ 200yards,while the Hornady's do 1"
Maybe I should look into those MK's

Regards Martin