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I guess i am aming this question about the .358 winchester although i have heard the same about the 35 whelen. Why is it in just about every post or article i read they state that the 180 and 200 grain bullets should be used on deer and the 250 grain bullets are reccommended for elk moose etc.The 180 grain bullet moves at 2700-2800 fps making a .358 dia entrance hole.The same velocity the 180 grain bullet gets in the 30/06 yet almost all reccommend the 180 grain bullets in the 30/06 over the 200-220 grain bullets for elk moose ect. Wouldn't the .358 Winchester using 180 and 200 grain bullets be a great choice for elk , moose etc. I beleive they may even be a better choice in some lever pumps and semi-autos where your C.O.L. is limited to using shorter bullets in the magazine. . Please give me your thoughts i what i have said. Thanks Tanoose | ||
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Tanoose, because they are shorter they have a lower BC, and a lower SD. The larger bullets, 250 grains, worked very well for me on deer! The 180 Speers were to soft in my opinion. Additionally, the .35 caliber bullets are designed with different velocity parameters in mind then say a 180 grain Swift A-Frame. The difference is that they will perform differently.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Thanks 308 after your post i went to my nosler manual and saw the .358 180 grain partition with a BC of 201 and when looking at the .308 180 partition its BC is 474. But i would bet that if you hunted elk or moose at short range the 35 caliber 180 and 200 grain bullets would be a fine load . I have a new BLR with a 20" in 358 Winchester i will be using this for deer and blackbear in ny with the hopes of maybe a moose hunt in the north east. My ranges wont exceed 100 yards . I have some remington 200 PSPCL and some hornady 200SP to try out and my friend just gave me a box of speer 220 grain hot core bullets that i like the looks of . I think i'll test them out and use the one my rifle favors. I did shoot a box of factory winchester 200 silvertips last weekenmd and they did well but i noticed that i could not use that much longer of a bullet , these winchesters were 2.750 so i guess the magazine was made to saami specs of 2.780 which would make alot of the 250 grain bullets out of the question in this rifle. Thanks again for your reply to my post Tanoose | |||
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Tannose, good bullets to try on the heavier end are the 250 Speer in Grand Slam or Hotcor, The 220 Speer, The 225 Sierra boattail also fits well, the 180 grain Speer is a tough bullet that would easily take elk on broadside shots as would the 200 grain Remington corelokt in either the PSPCL or RN. I am wading my way thru this season using both the 200 grain Hornady pointed soft point and the Remington RN CL. Three deer with the Remington bullet all exited and killed quickly. This weekend I am going to hopefully really test them or the Hornady bullet on a large feral hog while night hunting. As to the Sectional density and Ballistic coeficient argument between the 180 30 caliber bullets and the 180 grain 35 caliber bullet it all changes when the bullet hits game. Remember SD and BC are just numbers on paper how a bullet expands and maintains it's weight percentage is what counts. At the velocities we can achieve with the 358 winchester poor bullet performance with any bulet weight isn't likely. By next year though unless after taking several large hogs if I find my two present bullerts don't give me what I want in penetration I will go to the 220 grain Speer or 225 grain Sierra pushed to 2400 fps and give them a try. Saeco also makes a mold for a gas checked 245 grain flat nose bullet that I am going to try for cheap bullet practice. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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Sectional Dia Weight Denisty .308 150 .226 .308 165 .248 .308 180 .271 .308 200 .301 .358 180 .201 .358 200 .223 .358 225 .251 .358 250 .279 While sectional density isn't as important with today's super premium bullets, all other things being equal (like similar bullet construction/design) I think it still gives an indication of penetration ability. As a general guideline, the larger and heavier the game, higher sectional denisty is desirable for more penetration. Notice that the .308 caliber 180 gr and the .358 caliber 250 gr bullets have almost the same sectional density (.271 and .279). And, the .308 caliber 180 gr and the .358 caliber 250 gr bullets are commonly used weights in their respective calibers for game such as Elk. Sectional density is calculated as: SD = (bullet wt in grs / 7000) / caliber in inches ^2 Example: 180 gr .308 caliber SD = (180/7000)/.308^2 = .271 My two cents.... -Bob F. | |||
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Mass and impact velocity are important where penetration is concerned. Mass gives momemtum and moderate velocity allows standard bullets to perform like the so called premium bullets. To say you need a 35 cal. 250 grain bullet to perform like a 30 cal. 180 grain bullet sounds funny to me. Similarly construced bullets of the same weights but one being 35 cal. and the other bein 30 cal. at the same velocity will show a decided edge in wound channel width going to the larger diaameter bullet and little difference in penetration. Ifeel the SD and BC figures are more applicable to bullets in flight and not so much in game, especially when we are talking about calibers larger then .284. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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I would not be too concerned about the BC in your bullet selection for a .358 win. I might stay away from round noses except for special purpose loads. The cartriige is simply not a good choice for shooting at long range. You might go 300 yards for deer but I would consider 250 tops for elk. Most any pointed bullet in the 180 to 200 grain weight will do a great job on deer , not a bad choice for elk either although to insure good penitration you might want to use a bonded core for elk. I used to shoot the 180 grain speer from a contender in .357 maximum. Lots of fun, never took game with it but just for fun I split some dry fire wood with it by shooting clear through end to end. while it would do fine on deer , I think I would use somthing else for e elk. The flat point speer in 180 and 220 are designed for the 35 remington, and might be prone to open up a little fast. I like the 35s I have a whelen, and i would love to find a .358 norma, and If it were not so accurate, I would love to turn my 7mmstw into a .358 sta...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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rick300, Have a look at this article at the link below. The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets By Chuck Hawks http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm from the article: --------------------------- SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet. Here are some typical hunting bullets and their sectional densities, which are recognized as effective for medium size big game animals: .243" (6mm) 90 grain, SD .218 .243" (6mm) 100 grain, SD .242 .257" (.25) 100 grain, SD .216 .257" (.25) 115 grain, SD .249 .264" (6.5mm) 120 grain, SD .247 .277" (.270) 130 grain, SD .242 .284" (7mm) 140 grain, SD .248 .308" (.30) 150 grain, SD .226 .308" (.30) 165 grain, SD .248 .321" (8mm) 170 grain, SD .236 .338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250 .358" (.35) 200 grain, SD .223 As you can see, all of the above have a sectional density over .215, and the average is about .237. That is the kind of SD you should look for in a bullet for medium game. For large game, bullets with higher sectional density should be chosen. Good examples of such bullets would be: .264" (6.5mm) 140 grain, SD .287 .277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279 .284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283 .308" (.30) 180 grain, SD .271 .321" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274 .338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281 .358" (.35) 250 grain, SD .279 .375" (.375) 270 grain, SD .274 .458" (.45) 400 grain, SD .272 All of the bullets immediately above have a sectional density over .270. The average SD of these bullets is about .279. Bullets of this sectional density, if well constructed, have proven able to penetrate deep into big game animals. --------------------------- Cheers, -Bob F. | |||
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BFaucett is right. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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This is about as good an answer as one can offer.....good job BFaucett /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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If you can find some of the 275 gr RN Hornady bullets they were great. They give penetration and open up well in the 358 Winchester with a 1-10 to 1-12 inch twist barrel. That should include the Browning and Savage lever guns. Packy | |||
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Personally I think with the better bullets available today, ie "premiums" the best bullet weight in 35 cal is the 225 gr. In the 358 win you can push them 2500 fps, with a 200 yd zero you have a round that will take any NA game with no holdover to 250 yds, and in the whelen or 350 rem mag you can push them 2700 fps, zero for 250 yds, and have a 300 yd no holdover gun. Depending on the bullets construction, I don't know that the entrance hole will be only .358 cal. I shot a small doe with a 250 gr hornady rn at nearly point blank range, so the bullet was doing pretty much what my chrony clocked it at, which was 2700 fps. Entrance was quarter size, exit was fist size, ie nearly a decapitation. I'm glad I held on the neck and not the chest as there wouldn't have been much left  __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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speaking of the glorious 358... if you are not shy of a slight sub cal neck... if you necked up the 338 rum (the 338 rum is shorter than the 300 and 375 rum) to the exaulted 358 dia...you could do a 2.65" or 68mm version of the rum. use a 338 rum reamer and a 35 neck/throat reamer and viola! the biggest practical 35 in a std mag action length. lower preasure or more velocity than a 358 sta in a smaller package.  sorry i cant help it...i have a wildcatters soul  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If you have to play the SD equals penetration game how about picking a 30 caliber bullet with a SD equal to a 35 caliber bullet. That would pair up the 200 grain 35 with the 150 grain 30 caliber bullet. Anyone here think that mythically similar bullets in this comparison would give the 150 grain 30 cal. the edge? A 25% edge in mass will make itself known. Finn Aagard was a renowned writer and bullet tester who would not shirk at testing and comparing dissimilar bullets. In an article he did for American Rifleman on the 350 Remington magnum he compared the penetration of 6 35 caliber bullets against the ageless 180 grain PSPCl out of a 30-06. All the 35 caliber bullets tested, including the 200 grain Rem. PSP, 200 grain Hornady pointed soft point and the 180 grain Speer flatnos gave measurably better penetration. The bullets of equal SD, the 250 grain Hornady RNSP and the 250 grain Speer spitzer displayed much better penetration than the legendary 180 grain corelokt when pushed to similar velocity levels. This in the November 1985 issue of said magazine. Chuck Hawks or not don't give me crap about mass meaning nothing or that bullet construction does not have a far greater impact on a bullets penetration capabilities than somebody's slipstick numbers. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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rick, I agree with you that mass plays a part. But SD plays a part too as well as bullet construction (as you also mentioned). I've read most of Finn's articles and I have two of his books. I have his book (a compilation of articles put out by the NRA some years ago) that contains the article on the .350 Rem Mag. BTW: I sure do miss Finn. I really enjoyed his writing. "The bullets of equal SD, the 250 grain Hornady RNSP and the 250 grain Speer spitzer displayed much better penetration than the legendary 180 grain corelokt when pushed to similar velocity levels." To me, that's a good example of where extra mass can play a part in aiding penetration as the 180 gr .30 caliber Core-Lokt and the 250 gr Hornady and Speer have very similar construction. Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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Bfaucett has it nailed. That is my thinking exactly. SD 240-250 deer/antelope SD 280 for elk/moose size SD 300 for maximum penetration big/dangerous critters that you want/need to break down. Premium bullets allow you to use one step down in SD. If you want guarenteed performance go with the above SD AND premium bullets. Rickt300 The example you give above has bullets of the same SD but not the same energy/or momentum, that is why the heavier bullets penetrate more. They have more energy and momentum. If you have the exact same energy, the smaller diameter bullet will penetrate more due to the friction resistance in the test medium not being equal. To do true tests, you can only have one variable at a time, which is a lot more involved. Higher SD bullets penetrate better. Higher mass bullets penetrate better. Premium bullets penetrate better. Higher energy/momentum penetrates better Higher velocity penetrates better. The key is with everything else being equal. | |||
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Beyond all the technical specs, experience has proven generations of hunters the 30 & 35 calibers to simply be truly effective in the field. I started my career happily using 6 mm, 257 & 270's. Got a 35 Whelen in the late 80's, found that big bullet, at a modest, but reasonable velocity, worked real darn well at my normal hunting ranges. This includes one Whitetail buk at about 300 yards, my longest shot ever. Plus we have benefitted from real improvements in most bullet construction. I think that I learned that the high velocity rounds can make use of the premium bullets. The more modest speeds of calibers like the Whelen, combine a kind of magic combination of caliber, velocity & weight to be effective, beyond the specs, on most game. There are several premium bullets that are simply more bullet than is ever ever required to get the job done. Think this is true of appropriate bullets in the 308 & 358 Winchesters, 06, & plenty of others. It sure is nice have all these options to tinker with! | |||
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on the other hand, you could just throw all of this out the window...I have killed three bull elk over 320points, scored after 90 days... with a 56lb Howard Hill longbow and wooden arrows with Hill broadheads! If you learn to hunt, to actually stalk within 100 yards...a decent 223 with winchester 64gr powerpoints is all the rifle you will ever need. On the other hand...I am building a 550 Gibbs Magnum, huh? regards, Rich DRSS | |||
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