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INCH pound, NOT ft/lb ... I don't think that little bolt could take 30 ft/lb.. much less 70.. INCH pound opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Never had, nor ever heard, of a 77 having mainspring problems. What make of primers are you using? | |||
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Are you referring to the firing pin spring? I have never heard of anyone having trouble with the firing pin spring on a Ruger M77, but there is a first time for everything. I have a couple new Model 70 and and a couple new M77 Hawkeye rifles. To me the Model 70 is worth a few dollars more than the M77, but only just a few. I like the Model 70 recoil pad and I like the adjustable trigger. Other than that there are few real differences. They are both reliable and the accuracy is about the same. | |||
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Wow! Speechless. Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair or Blair Worldwide Hunting http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/3471078051/p/1 | |||
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I've had well over 30 Ruger M77 Mk2 +Hawkeye rifles. Everyone of them has fed and fully functioned wonderfully. Not a one of them shot bigger than 1.5 moa. Many of them ran around 1/2 moa . My 6.5 Creedmoor Hawkeye shoots in the .3s . Not saying they are better than the Winchester but I don't think they are any worse. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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With regards to accuracy, I don't believe that one brand is more likely to give you a better chance of getting an 'out-of-the-box' MOA shooter than the other. What I would consider is that Rugers tend to be heavier, thicker, and come with shorter barrels. The Winchester will be thinner, come with a longer barrel, and will likely be lighter. I don't know if a 22" vs 24" barrel is a deal breaker for you in .30-06, but something to consider. Ultimately, I would say go with the rifle that fits you best and feels good in your hands. | |||
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It is the firing pin spring I am referring to and at least of my M77's . The most recent was with Privi Partisan ammunition . This was just 6 months ago and after I changed the spring all the rounds , bar one , fired .The 30.06 I am talking about in the original post had misfires with Remington and CCI primers . Mark | |||
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As with any thing made even high end customs every once in a while some thing can go bad. Out of 20 some mini 14s I have played with I had one that would not group with in 8 inches at 100 the rest were sub 2 inch rifles. Sent that one back Ruger put a new barrel on it ended up a sub 1.5 inch rifle. I have a Winchester model 70 feather weight that has a super tight chamber. That I only shoot factory in it. Out of 3 sets of 243 reloading dies I have I can't get any of them to chamber a round in this rifle. That's ok because it is only use during deer season for young hunters. Does these two examples make all Ruger or Winchesters all bad. NO If we look hard enough I think we can find examples from any manufacture that are quote bad. | |||
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I'd go with the one that just fits you the best. Pick them up and see how they shoulder and point. For me that would be the M70 (assuming scope use). The comb on the Rugers seems too low for me. But you may be different. Both are perfectly serviceable rifles. | |||
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For the record.....I've been hard on Rugers for some time so let me set the record straingt My first experience with a Ruger was a mini-14 in about 1973.....darn thing grouped just barely within a paper plate in 100 yards and had a trigger pull of about twenty pounds.....no, I didn't measure it but it was atrocious..... My next one was in 1976 or there abouts, a M77 in .243 made in the 200th year of American liberty...../the stock warped badly and accuracy went to pot.....I sold it and went my merry way. In about 1978 I bought another M77 in 7mm Mag that I took to Idaho elk hunting. When one opened and retracted the bolt, the rounds in the magazine wouldn't feed up so the bolt could catch it to feed it. I wrote to Ruger about it and they sent me a new magazine box.....and it functioned the same way. I so traded it off. I hunted with a guy in Wisconsin that had a M-77 in .338 Mag and the feature that locked the bolt failed on his rifle anbd was catching brush as he walked through the brush (the gun slung over his shoulder) and opening the action casting a round to the snow. Some time in the 1990s I bought a Number-1 varmint rifle in 6 mm Rem....it had a heavy barrel and was a very pretty gun with the typical beautiful styling.....but wouldn't do any better than a 3" group at 100 yards.....this time I sent it to Ruger and they returned it to me. It still wouldn't shoot well so I returned it to me and when it again returned and didn't shoot well, I called them and asked what load they was testing it with.....where upon they informed me that the accuracy of the gun was within their standards and they wasn't going to fix it. Yes, this was some time ago.....but when does one give in?.....how often does one have to be burned?......screw em!!!!! And if this seems bad.....Savage was even worse..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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thanks....I fixed it /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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 I also have had the weak spring problem in Mod 77s ; a 22-250 and a .257. It was most evident using CCI #34 primers but did happen with other primers.  All the mod 77 Rugers I or others I know have owned were MOA. Never owned a Mod. 70 that I can remember.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I think the FN Model 70 is a good rifle in manyrespects but those I have worked with all had a problem with the location of the extractor hook related to the bolt face which negated most of the primary extraction. The difference comes from a programming error or a fixturing error where the groove is machined too far forward. I spoke to Browning about this and they seemed unconcerned. This strikes what would otherwise be a fine rifle off my list. I think the first Ruger stocks were much better than the latest offerings. Those on the later model tang safeties were bulky. I have replaced more Ruger striker springs than any other make. If they wind their own springs, they need to change materials. If they outsource, they need to find a new supplier. One thing that really bugs me on the new 77's is, why do they grind the bolt handle so thin? It's not necessary for scope clearance and the handle looks fragile. One Hawkeye I had for a while had a bolt handle whicg was only .122 thick. If I had kept the rifle, I would have had to have welded up that handle just so it wouldn't bother me every time I looked at it. Selling it worked as well. Regards, Bill | |||
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I have 4 Ruger 77 Mark 2s and one South Carolina 70 featherweight. The 50% premium gets you a free floated barrel, better trigger, better finish, better looking wood. The Ruger will usually need some bedding and trigger work. All my Rugers shoot MOA with a little work. It's funny, I'm going on a free range Axis hunt in June and I'm deciding between my Ruger 77 in 6.5x55 and my Featherweight in 7mm-08. I'm going through load development now. I feel both are good choices. Both are great rifles. | |||
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shoot one with each! | |||
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I had one of the first 77s ever made and accuracy was "okay". I also had a Hawkeye and accuracy was subpar and flipping the safety on and off was extremely hard; obviously some piece hadn't been sized or finished properly. I can't see myself owning another M77. IMO there are better rifles out there for a similar price. I haven't bought a M70 in about 15 years, so I can't speak to their current quality. | |||
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Personally, I can not say which is the better rifle. If you have enough association with any manufacturer it is likely you will have an issue of some sort at sometime, non are 100% perfect 100% of the time. Sometimes, you are the unlucky one-of recipient the first purchase. I have Winchester, Rugers, and a few other brands. All of my Winchesters are New Haven and Rugers are MarkII and the newer Hawkeye versions. I use to think that I liked the looks of the M70's better, not sure about that any longer. I replace the synthetic stocks on the M70's & M77's stainless rifles that I use regularly. I also do a trigger adjustment or replacement on both. I prefer the open trigger design of M77 and the older M70's. I prefer the M70 safety lever over the M77's. My son has a 338 Win Mag in a FN M70 Alaskan Stainless and Laminated stock, appears to be a nice rifle. Perhaps if Winchester had chambered in the 375 & 416 Ruger, I would still have more M70's than M77. My favorite two using rifles are Rugers in 338 Win Mag and 375 Ruger. I do not see the favorites changing, even though I have a M70 project in progress. ----------------------------------------------------------------
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I have some of each, both old and new. I can't see where either is noticeably better. Pick the one you like the best. | |||
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After reading all these posts it seems the Ruger fans say it's just as good. Others point out the deficiencies of the Ruger. Nobody has had a laundry list of problems with the Winchester. Buy the one that the other one is compared to. There a lot of Rugers that shoot as good as a Winchester, and some function flawlessly. A Winchester will always run and it will take you straight where you're going. And by the way - you'll look better getting there. | |||
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Winchesters are good rifles but not infallible. I have a rack full of both Rugers and M-70's that I keep for loaning to clients and guides and over the past 25 years have had at least as many problems with the Winchesters as the Rugers. The Winchester extractors must be some sort of casting and no where near a tough or reliable as the Ruger's. Neither are the Winchester magazine springs and the bolt handle on the M-70 is press fit to the bolt body and there have been numerous cases, fortunately not in my camp though, where it has come off in the hunters hand. The Ruger bolt is one piece. I do like the Win. trigger and bedding better than the Ruger but for 100% reliability both rifles usually need a little attention. I have seen M-70's in 375 H&H jam when worked fast under pressure - and seen 375 Rugers jam as well. But with proper attention, and a little additional money spent on the M-70 bolt handle, they both make good, solid rifles. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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that would be "buy a mauser" then -- a couple things 1: current winchesters and ruger hawkeyes don't HAVE a laundry list of complaints - they are both new models .. there are VERY FEW isolated problems with both -- there are no KNOWN systemic issues with either 2: it would be LAUGHABLE to "forgive" the winchester from post-64 all the way through the FN New Model 70 .. recall the coyote model, all of the push feeds, all of the pfcrc things, that EVERY 470 capstick has an oversized barrel, that the mag spring is a joke, the bottom metals needs to be replaced, every trigger wants a trigger job, extractors breaking, stocks breaking on 416s and 458... 3: oh and winchester going bankrupt because their product line quality sucked rocks 4: above is the "old model 70" or post 64-classic, jam-o-matic made in Conn. 5: ruger hasn't has a systemic rifle flaw since the early markII - neither shoot as well as a savage 6: ruger has intregal square bridges, 3 position, trigger blocking safety, and a mechanically stronger bolting-into-the-stock system 7: the ruger stock is okay in general look, but there's a stockmaker part of it that drives me NUTS, and no matter how good the wood is, the stock is actually ugly... 8:ruger -- 77, rsm, hawkeye, 10/22, sr556, 308 AR, mini14, mini 30, and a couple great, and some not so great pistols and shotguns ... 9: winchester makes GREAT guns .. but not the wide spectrum market driven selection 10: winchester has NEVER had to have a corporate strategy to stop taking new orders, as their products are in such demand that they had to do that. Ruger has done this, TWICE in the last 6 years 11 ruger is making a HUGE mistake - they are making the ugly north american model -- which is even uglier than the winchester coyote model -- and for the same reason - to bring low cost alternatives to everyone 12 the above is the cheap model that is frequently left on the shelf .. where it should be like progressive reloading machines, i hear lots of "the one i selected is best, even though i have ZERO experience with anything else... cuz its mine, its best" rubbish -- those of us with experience in both actually KNOW that, you know what, either the cost is reflective of lower quality, or there's really not much difference... like dillon vs hornady, when tested INDEPENDENTLY, there's no meaningful difference between a hornady lnl and a dillon 650 for the AVERAGE or lower reloader .. and there's no comparison at the 550 ... a critter would be hard pressed to know if it was hit with a ruger or winchester opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I think I would have to say Quintus if there was no difference in price I would agree with your view . Here in Australia the model 70 costs half as much again . My feeling is Phil has reminded us that accuracy is not the only criteria by which to judge a hunting rifle . The great manufacturers of hunting rifles have focussed on function rather than half minute accuracy . If you are hunting at long-range accuracy is key , but under 200 yards this is not key . Mark | |||
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Mark is correct about accuracy not being the most important factor in a hunting rifle because if it were I would never carry my .375 H&H M-70 as it is a 2 MOA rifle at best and every .375 Ruger I have shot, and there are quite a few in my camp, will do better than 1 MOA . But I have carried it for years, it is comfortable and reliable and accurate enough for the game I am using it for and holds 4 down in the magazine. But if I had to go out and buy a new rifle, or when I recommend a rifle for a hunter, I recommend a new Ruger. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I like the M70 rifle and have shot one in competition for decades. It is a smooth slick action and part reliability is excellent. I think the latest FN action are the best built to date, though I miss the original trigger and machined feed lips, the current action is a good one. This is an early "PBR" action with the old trigger in a tupperware stock.     This is a pre FN "classic" action in 6.5 Swede, and it is a sweet rifle.  My Ruger M77’s, the 308 Win shoots very well but I had to bed the action. My 70’s M77 in 257 Roberts, it is so inaccurate that if loaded with shot would make an excellent skeet gun. The barrels from this period were crap. Bedding is one problem that can’t be fixed with a good barrel: the M77 it is hard to bed. I don’t care what idiot gun writers claimed about the angled action screw improving accuracy or bedding: it does not. The M77 has a very tiny recoil lug and unless the sides are tight in the stock the action will slide around as the round goes out the barrel. That angled front screw only made bedding a multi step job and difficult process. However once bedded, if the barrel is good, the action will shoot. Early M77’s had terrible barrels and I would only buy one if it had the new hammer forged barrels.     Before Bedding, using a bench  After Bedding, prone with a sling  I do think the latest M77 Ruger, with the controlled feed extractor, an excellent action. Ruger designed a very safe and durable action, it is a bit looser and sloppier than the M70, due to casting tolerances, but it works fine. | |||
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I haven't bought a "new" rifle of current production in quite a while. I have three Rugers a 270, 416 Taylor built on a tang safty action and a stainless synthetic 338. All will shoot into an inch or better with the 270 none have ever let me down. That being said I can say the same thing for each and every one of the Pre64 M70's I have all 18 of them. If I was in the market for a new production rifle I would choose the one that felt best to me. Accuracy issues can usually be solved by bedding. If I was to buy a new rifle because I wanted or needed a new rifle I'd look for either the tang safety Ruger but my first choice would be a Pre 64 M70 . | |||
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I am not saying 70s are infallible, the choice was between the two. Also it's hard to compare anything to a camp rifle. People have a tendency to treat loaners/rentals like it is their job to wreck it. If you tear the bolt handle off your rifle, any rifle, it was probably after driving on it, dropping it off a cliff, pounding tent stakes with it, etc. Personally at half the price I'd buy two Rugers and sell the one that wasn't best. I have not owned more than 10 of either, and have gotten acceptable performance from all of them, but I have had M70s push feed and CRF that were exceptional $600.00 guns. | |||
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Even if they were priced the same, I would go with a ruger hawkeye. Not that an m70 is a poor gun, but the rugers are better | |||
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Flip a coin. Heads Ruger, tails Winchester. When the coin lands if you are not immediately happy with the results buy both. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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Ruger rifles come with integral bases, but are all 30-06 length actions. Excepting the rare Ruger express rifles. All else being equal, I could never own another M70 and be happy. I would never say that about Ruger. The M70 is more visually appealing to me, but if I was put into a 20 acre cage with bears, tigers and lions that have not been fed in two weeks, I'd take the Ruger. | |||
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If, as you said, accuracy is your first concern, and you want to get it right out of the box with no tweaking or replacing of parts, don't buy either. Get a Weatherby. Every one I have ever owned or worked with was a whiz-bang shooter. I currently own two, and I do NOT handload for either. There is no possible way I could load ammo for either which would shoot better than the sub-half-inch groups they shoot now with factory ammo. The CHEAP factory Winchester silver box stuff. NO COMPROMISE !!! "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" | |||
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As was earlier pointed out, accuracy is seldom the first, or only, priority in a hunting rifle. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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How do you know handloads won't do better if you never tried? How do you know factory ammo won't change down the road? | |||
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I have M-70s because i don't like Rugers-- and thats all the reason I need-  I am sure that Ruger makes a good rifle--just never had any luck with them and its a free country. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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And I have M-70's and Rugers and Remington's and Mausers and Springfields because I like rifles and prefer making judgement based on extensive first hand experience.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil there is no questioning your experience--- but I have mine also--  Just happen to prefer winchesters over rugers- In my experience rugers have a great design and poor execution--but to each his own. Remington 700s I do not do as I am one of the unlucky few that actually had safety Ads - my Grandmom was mad when we blew the tranny 0ut of her Jeep Wagoneer . Twice-- They an be accurate but haven't trusted them since. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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He probably doesn't see the value in trying to improve on sub-half-inch accuracy in a hunting rifle. | |||
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I do like the Ruger mounting system for a hunting rifle and prefer the 30-06 length and sized action for my type of hunting rifle. And with the 375 & 416 Rugers, one can hunt some pretty big animals in a fairly trim factory package. I have a few M70's but have not used one in years. At some point over the years, I gravitated to the Rugers. And currently have more of the Rugers. To me the M77 MarK IIs, with a bead blast, and in a McMillan Classic stock are as visually appealing to me as a M70 in the same dress, if not more so. As to blued and wood, depends on the blue and wood for either. As to accuracy, that has depended on individual rifles with Lots of variables. As to slickness to action off the shelf, in my examples, I will give that to the M70. Though, I have several older Mark 11's that seemed to have been be just as slick. Again, Lots of variables. I hunt with Rugers, so I guess that sums up my choice. --------------------------------------------------------------
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A few years ago, I could buy old model 70 actions with barrels for around $600. It appears from this report that the prices gone up a couple hundred, which is not that bad compared to the inflation on new guns. Ethical gunsmiths in my experience will not destroy the original serviceable rifle, but where the stock is deteriorated or damaged they seem to move pretty fast. This rifle was one of those. I had the barrel and action recoated and a used stock fitted. Here is the result:  Later, I had a different caliber barrel fitted. Alternatives include also allowing 308 Winchester or 7-08 which will include short actions in the mix. Letting your imagination go further afield is also interesting. Here is a Browning – Winchester in 3006 fitted as a scout rifle.  -------------------- EGO sum bastard ut does frendo | |||
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Another AZ Writer - Can't get much better than one-hole groups, All bullet holes touching, sub-half-inch center to center. If my handloads DID shoot better, I couldn't prove it - I believe that the groups I got from these rifles with the Winchester factory loads is about at the peak of my ability. Each time I ran across one like this, after seeing what that rifle did with the factory loads, I bought every box I could find in that particular lot number. I won't run out for a long time. When I do, I will buy the same ammo type and see if it shoots as well. If not, I'll start experimenting with handloads. The first for each rifle will be a remington case, a mid-range load of the slowest IMR powder for a Nosler Ballistic Tip in the middle of the weight range for the caliber. I have yet to find a rifle that did not respond very well to that treatment. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Weatherby is the only brand of rifle I shoot. FAAAAARR from it. And I have had great shooters from just about every manufacturer. But in my experience, which is not nearly as extensive as some here, Weatherby has been ABSOLUTELY consistently deadly accurate, right out of the box. Right now I currently own a Remington Model 7 CDL in 7mm-08 that is just as good as my Weatherbies. But I have also had Remingtons which were absolute dogs, and took much work just to get them to a point where I wasn't embarassed to sell them to someone else. The next best I have experienced for out-of-the-box accuracy has been Savage. NO COMPROMISE !!! "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles winchester Mod70 vs Ruger 77
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