Here is a link to a post by an experienced deer hunter, Mr. Lloyd Smale.

Powerful rifles vrs weaker rifles on deer.

A pull quote from the piece above:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

I agree with him.

I don't know that I have killed "tons" of deer, but I've killed quite a few.
There's no question that the '06 is more powerful than a 7-08 or a .243 or a .223 even with the magic AI. No question that is to anyone not having a personal agenda.
But the question begs to be asked, how dead is dead enough?
I agree that the folks that try to say that a deer shot with a .223 is DRT, whilst a deer shot with a '06 runs off need to shoot more deer. And the folks that whine about the lesser recoil need to shoot more and spend less time in cyberspace. Any cartridge, from a .260 through a .270, can deal with any deer walking the earth. If the shooter is up to his part. But there are no magic cartridges nor are there any magic bullets.
I am certainly not knocking the '06. I happen to own 3 at the moment. But the '06 is a tool, in the hands of a craftsman, it can do some fine work; in the hands of a armchair great white hunter, it's a POS. According to him.
IMO, the meat damage that folks talk about is more a result of velocity and bullet choice than calibre.

The "expert" is in the midwest where there are no big mulies. All this hoopla is just BS. Whether it's a 243 or a 458, use Barnes TSXs, shoot em' through both shoulders and they will be down and probably dead on the spot.
As always, it's the nut behind the bolt that really counts. The "ancient" 30-06 will kill anything that walks the earth in North America with the right ammo and a reasonably skilled rifleman.

Having used all three on deer, I would say no difference to 300 yards and then depending on the bullet/load used the "edge" would go the 30/06 due to it's larger powder capacity. Throw a 280 or a 270 into the mix and you would have a hard time finding any difference.
It is always easy to compare apples to oranges when making broad based statements.
In 46 years and more than 200 deer, I have only had 2 times I failed to recover the deer when it was shot, but in both cases we found the animal the next day. One was shot with a 35 Whelen AI and the other my 257DGR, the first was too low & too far back, missed the lungs and below the diaphragm an the 2nd was too high for the lungs and just below the spine, neither was the fault of the caliber- it was my error.

quote:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

See, my disagreement to the above statement, has to do with the concept of a Shooter versus a Hunter. I have killed and been involved in the killing of just a few white tails and muleys, and to the best of my knowledge, have never had to take a shot at either species at more than 200 yards. I would say that over 90% of the deer, white tail or muley, that I have killed were taken at 150 yards or less.

This discussion ranks right up there with the issue about using the .223/.224 for deer, meaningless!

In the hand of an experienced/confident HUNTER, does not matter the caliber of the gun. If the HUNTER is familiar with his equipment, confident in his/her abilities and familiar with the equipment being used, the result is a dead deer, end of story.

Lloyd Smale is who exactly?

I always find it amusing that killers of rat sized deer are the biggest experts on bullet and cartridge selection. Cracks me up.

I have killed deer with cartridges from the 223 up to the 450 No2, and a 50cal bl;ack powder rifle and a 12 ga slug, buckshot too...

If the deer is hit in the right spot I can tell no difference in "killing power".

In fact the two deer I killed with the 223 dropped to the shot, and deer I have killed with a 45/70, 405 Win, and even a 300 Win Mag ran 40 to 50 yards...

That being said I do NOT consider the 223 to be anywhere near an allround deer hunting cartridge.

Where a more powerful rifle comes in to its own is in raking shots, and on shots that might be a little less than perfect.

My wife killed this 300 plus pound Mule Deer at 330 yds with a steep "raking" shot. She used a 7x57 Mauser and 140 gr Accobonds to do it with. He went all of five feet after being hit.

I have yet to see a deer carrying enough armor to need a magnum or even a 30-06 to kill it. I like the 30-06 and think it is just about the perfect cartridge for general use in North America, or most of the world for that matter, but my 7x57, .270, .257 Roberts, and .45 2.4" Sharps kill deer just as well with a properly placed shot and will wound just as badly with a bad one. As a practicing Pathologist with military experience I can say with some authority that dead is dead no matter how it is achieved.

Jerry Liles

There are two types of quick kills in my experience; 1) solid heart shot, and 2) CNS shot. Lung shots often allow deer to run for a few to hundreds of yards before piling up to die. And if a deer is followed quickly after a lung shot, it seems their adrenaline overtakes their wounds.

Just my experience. With heart and CNS shots, any caliber that penetrates and hits the right spots will get the job done. I just prefer my odds with more bullet.

I tend to believe in this statement "Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther".

Shot placement trumps all.

I have literally killed tons of deer with .22 to .429 caliber, 50 cal muzzleloaders and archery equipment.

I will take any and all of the above with proper shot placement.

quote:

1) solid heart shot,

Example of a difference in experiences. I have rarely had a heart shot white tail, DRT. That includes a small 8 point buck that I let the hammer down on at less than 50 yards with my .375 H&H using a 250 grain Barnes "X" Flat base.

That critter ran over 60 yards at the hit, yet when I cut open the chest cavity to pull out the lungs and heart, and the whole top third of the heart was gone. The heart was hanging loose in the sack that it rests in under normal conditions. It was not attached to any arteries or anything.

I have actually had deer move a shorter distance when hit in the liver than heart/lungs.

Others mileage may vary, but the only sure DRT is a CNS hit, head or neck, and even then I have seen a brain shot deer bounce around for 10 yards or so before getting stopped.

Just an observation, but from 43 years worth of shooting white tails and other big game, there are NO guarantees as to how any particular animal will react to a shot, even a perfectly placed one.

yep, I heart shot a small deer at about 10 yards with a 375 H&H and it ran 50 yards. Same day, a buddy shot his in the lungs with 30-06 and it dropped. I honestly think if you have a bullet that will reach vitals, it's all up to that particular deer

My experience (and I have shot exactly no deer), but a few of the African plains thingies - Wildebeest, blesbok, springbuck, Impala, Hartebeest, and Gemsbuck, is - heart shot causes the animal to take off and run in whatever direction he's facing - sometimes running into trees or bushes and being knocked over or tripped.

Not a law of nature, just what I've seen, often.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

This discussion ranks right up there with the issue about using the .223/.224 for deer, meaningless!

In the hand of an experienced/confident HUNTER, does not matter the caliber of the gun. If the HUNTER is familiar with his equipment, confident in his/her abilities and familiar with the equipment being used, the result is a dead deer, end of story.

I totally agree with what you say here.

I have shot a few deer out to 300 meters, but 98-99%+ of the 375-400 deer I have shot with a rifle, have been at 200 meters or less.

I am out to hunt deer, not to snipe them from very far away, so I don't shoot at unwounded deer at longer distances than 300 meters.
Most of the time I like to get close and personal and that is one of the reasons I like bowhunting so much.

quote:

I don't know that I have killed "tons" of deer, but I've killed quite a few

I've killed around 200 deer lets say avg of 120lbs each thats 24000lbs of deer thats 12 tons.

I would say I have killed tons of deer

I've killed deer with calibers from 22 to 50 cal a well placed bullet from any one will kill them.

But I perfer a 264 dia or bigger but thats just me.

quote:

I honestly think if you have a bullet that will reach vitals, it's all up to that particular deer

Plus 10,000

I think if it is a 6.5 and up, there really is no difference in killing power. The range depends on the cartridge itself. Will the '06 kill better at 300 yards than a standard velocity 6.5x55, well maybe. Will it kill deer better than my 264WM or 6.5-06AI at that same 300 yards, hell no. Same with the 270 or 280, although I do not own one of those. I would bet the 264WM will kill better at 500 than the 30-06, but that is just ballistics again, not a knock on any particular cartridge. Step that '06 up to a 300WM and it evens out again.

For me, confidence in the rifle for the expected hunting conditions means a lot more than caliber. My little Ruger RSI 7 x 57 is the go-to for bottom land white tails. For open country, I usually pick up my M700 7mm Rem because I prepared it for sheep in Kyrgyzstan. It's is a true 3/4" shooter which I have refined over 30 years. I never have the slightest doubt that the bullet will go where I want it if I do my part.

The extra velocity of the magnum isn't nearly as important how I feel when the sear breaks.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Here is a link to a post by an experienced deer hunter, Mr. Lloyd Smale.

Powerful rifles vrs weaker rifles on deer.

A pull quote from the piece above:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

you quote same random poster on another forum and tout him as an expert???

Trollin', trollin' trollin'

olarmy,

The poster shoots 100 deer each year. That's a lot of deer and his conclusions make sense to me.

That's not trolling. I was just passing along some information for us to discuss. If you don't agree with it then present your information or 'experts'!

I happen to respect Lloyd's opinion.
so does my wife, she sold her x57 and went to an 0-6.
I use my x57 for elk only anymore, it's too big for these northern deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
olarmy,

The poster shoots 100 deer each year. That's a lot of deer and his conclusions make sense to me.

That's not trolling. I was just passing along some information for us to discuss. If you don't agree with it then present your information or 'experts'!

savage99 (is that you, Don?)

my response is that the bullet is much more important than what's on the headstamp of the case. And almost any reasonable cartridge between 257 and 30 cal, with a bullet designed for the task will do fine.

You could use a 25/06, 270, 280, 308, 260, 7-08,30/06, etc. for the next 5 lifetimes. And if you used the proper bullet, you would be able to tell no difference in the reaction of the deer, given similar shot placement.

In any conversation blanket statements are just that- BS.
In killing anything, larger SD is better than lesser SD BUT if you don't achieve adequate penetration it is for naught. Likewise, more velocity equals more killing power BUT at the expense of more meat destruction.
While most any cartridge will kill a deer, when range, shot presentation, etc. figure into the equation, larger faster cartridges will afford a greater margin for error. Although there may not be anything to eat when you are done

Half the whitetail deer I have shot were with a 243 Win. A 95 gr partition at 3100 FPS; a load I have used for over 30 years. I am selective with my shots and have yet to recover a bullet however I can typically wait until a broad side shot affords itself. 80% of the deer dropped where they stood. None ever ran over 50 yards.
I have also shot +200 lb feral hogs straight through the "tough grizzled shoulders" with the same load. It goes through them like a hot knife through butter.
BTW; Those tough grizzled shoulders are folk lore...Makes for good camp fire stories.
I like the 243 but also like a 470 double. They all do what they claim in capable hands.
Do not let anyone "tell you" what you should shoot. Go out and practice with your rifle and wait for a good shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Here is a link to a post by an experienced deer hunter, Mr. Lloyd Smale.

Powerful rifles vrs weaker rifles on deer.

A pull quote from the piece above:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

When the 22 Hornet came out, people in northwest Pennsylvania started using it on deer in place of their 30-40 Krags. How about that.

Not to sound like a broken record but again it isn't so much what you shoot but shot placement period.

I am no longer amuzed by individuals who continue to tell everyone else why they have the correct opinion and everyone who disagrees with them are idiots.

Caliber and cartridge will never make up for poor marksmanship. However, marksmanship can make caliber and cartridge a moot point.

I agree with BigNate.
This is purely a trolling expedition by the poster to allow another opportunity for the bigger is better agenda. Bigger does not make up for poor shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
I am no longer amuzed by individuals who continue to tell everyone else why they have the correct opinion and everyone who disagrees with them are idiots.

VERY good point, Nate!

Maybe it is just a case of someone wanting equal air time? You know, like the main stream media is supposed to do with political candidates.

Maybe someone got tired of the .223 Deer Rifle issue and decided to go toward the other end of the spectrum.

JMO but both are issues.

I have always thought one of the worst cartridges on deer is the 30-06 ..... with the wrong bullet. So many people use the most heavy, stoutest bullet they can buy for those ( big, tough) deer. Shot through the lungs with a bullet that doesnt expand well,usually means the coyotes get a meal that night. Snow on the ground helps novices find them, but you dont always have that during hunting season.

I've shot deer with a '06 using 165, 180, and 200 grain bullets. Mostly core lokts but also some other hornady/speer cup and core bullets. They all worked fine for me. I'm gonna guess that there are more deer killed with 30-06s using core lokt bullets than all the rest combined.
That may not be your pet bullet but we are just a small fraction of the millions of folks that go out and kill stuff.

quote:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

The topic is about quicker kills and not shot placement!

Besides a larger wound makes "shot placement" easier!

Quicker Kills

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

quote:

" If you think a 757 or 708 kills deer as well as an 06 youve either not killed enough with both or are just predudice. You say yourself that the o6 does more damage. In my book that relates to quicker kills in more instantances then not. Id about agree with you if you were talking 200 yards but when the range gets out to 300 plus the 06 is just flat out superior. "

The topic is about quicker kills and not shot placement!

Besides a larger wound makes "shot placement" easier!

Quicker Kills

I have killed deer with the 7X57, 7mm-08, and 30-06. You?

This argument is stupid. Stupid, stupid!!

To add to it, that link is stupid.

If you think a 30/06 kills deer quicker than a 25/06, 260, 7-08, 7x57, 280, 7mag, 264, 6.5x55, 270, 270WSM, 7WSM, 308, etc. you've either not killed enough deer, are just prejudice, just too stupid to understand that there are several other variables which dwarf the headstamp on the cartridge in importance.

Is that better?

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

The topic is about quicker kills and not shot placement!

Then apologize for not being able to shoot straight. Not for shooting the 7X57!

This entire thread is based solely on opinions, some formed from more experience than others, some formed without an open mind with certain prejudices influencing said opinion.
Here is part of my opinion.
In my youth I shot deer with whatever was handy at the time, .32, 30/30, 30/06, .284, 22/250, 22 long rifle, 300 Weatherby maybe a few others. The most instant and dramatic kills witnessed were with the 22/250 and 30/30 being second place, (excluding headshots).
In my adult years I exclusively used a 30/06 (for many years) it killed deer fine but it always felt like it was "overkill" (purely my opinion)so for Deer, about 5 years ago, I switched to a .257 Roberts. The last 2 very large bodied Mule Deer Bucks I've shot with the .257 have been at 200 yards and 326 yards, both were body shots passing thru the vitals using 117 Sierra's, both bullets exited and both Bucks dropped "in their tracks", like the carpet was yanked out from under them.
In addition to the deer I've shot I've witnessed many more killed and I must say typically the .224, .243, .257's seem to have a dramatic effect on animals, on a deer sized animal the bigger guns seem to have no advantage from what I've seen, this is assuming everyone is shooting them in the vitals. I've seen poor shooting with large and small calibers and cartridges and honestly saw no difference one way or the other, actually seen more bad shooting with the .308 and up than any of the .25 cal's and below.
By the way I too have shot "a ton of deer".
Accurate shooting is the key, not caliber, in my opinion of experience.