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Trax, you know better than to confuse folks with actual facts, they do not handle it well.   Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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On the subject of shot placement v bore size,I at one time used to shoot an old original Remington Creedmoor rolling block target rifle, chambered in what I think, from memory, was .500 Nitro. It was a 3 inch long slow taper case into which we would seat these long 700 gn soft lead paper patched bullets. The rifle had originally been a .44 cal I believe but due to neglect it had been necessary to re-bored to .5 at some stage. Why it wasn't sleeved I don't know. Anyway, as best as I recall, the thing was loaded with about 85 gn of FF black powder and as you might imagine, when it went off, it gave you a serious thump. Anyway, one day I was heading down the river for some target practice when I noticed a rabbit at a distance of about 80 or so yards. I dropped to the ground, chambered a round and let him have it. After the smoke cleared I noticed him staggering-off!! Five or so meters from where he was initially hit he finally went to grass; but he still wasn't dead! As it turned out I'd hit him right in the middle but about 2 inches back from where he should have been hit. The 700 gn soft lead projectile appeared to have passed right through him unscathed. That little incident certainly taught me a thing or two about the importance of correct shot placement. | |||
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The topic is about powerful rifles vrs weaker rifles on deer and not shot placement. Of course on the forums we can have sub topics however that person shot deer in the chest with a .22 LR only and then rode off to let them suffer and maybe die! That is the most cruel and disgusting things I have ever read on a hunting forum. The primary topic on this thread is evidence that more powerful rifles kill the game faster and with less suffering. Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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Funny, I do not recall seeing the word Moderator attached to your name. As for your "Evidence" I shoot fairly powerful rifles, but if I do not place my shot properly it is not going to kill any faster than a bullet from a less powerful rifle poorly placed will. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I believe we have a PETA troll in our midst. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Don, you truly have the gift of saying silly things that irritate folks, whatever forum you are on. Is this something you strive for, of does it just come naturally?  | |||
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I never asked anyone to agree or disagree with me or ever said it was sporting to use a 22 L.R. on deer.. By way of explanation for what its worth, it was a long time ago and I wan very young. Cattle were 9 cents a pound, Our ranch trucks were a Mod. A or T Ford and a 3? chev p.u...Dad leased a ranch in Mexico for 5 years to build a fence around it..It was probably 300 miles and mostly dirt road to the nearest grocery store, Alpine,Texas...Had to feed a crew of 50 mexicans, 22 ammo was cheap and we had no money. I was paid $1.00 per day to keep them fed and btw I loved my job, what kid wouldn't.. I learned one thing that many here have not. If you adjust your hunting to your caliber then any gun will work and kill cleanly, I was able to do that as the deer were tame and had not been hunted much at all since the Forestals had seized about all the guns in that area. I made enough money that summer to buy a 25-35 Win for $20.00 and a wore out $2.00 bike. I had to wait til Christmas to get two boxes of ammo.. times were hard, something folks seem to have forgotten, or rather were not around in the late 30 or early 40s..you used what you had and didn't make an issue out of it.. Today I have many big rifles and that is what I use, but I still use the same 25-35 on ocassion so I don't forget the hard times, it still works if I get close and place my shot. I get a lot of instant kills with it..I could sucessfully hunt does and even get an ocassional buck with the 22 L.R., but I don't. But if you cannot then you shouldn't be hunting IMO... Same for archery, muzzle loading, or pistol hunting, you have to work at it and if you do not then you don't need to be using them.. I make no excuses for those days gone by adn I wouldn't take for them..it was a way of life, and we didn't have an internet to flog anyone that they didn't agree with..Getting kinda like Washing DC around here!  By the way Savage 99, those "poor deer" did not suffer a long lingering death, they died as quickly as most you have shot with the 99..Two quick shots in the heart or lungs and they would lay down and die if I rode off..shot with a bigger gun they can run 50 to a 100 yards and die..Like I said a few even got a bite or two of grass before expiring, go figure.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, I believe you are right and believe in what you said. Interesting the note on the deer even took a few bites of grass after being shot. Just a few nights ago was watching a wild boar hunt on TV. They had a feeder set up and this one lone pig came in for a bite. The hunter put an arrow straight through the pig. It jumped and the hunter said looked around as it thought another pig came in and bumped him. Well it went back to eating with blood pouring out both the exits holes. After a few bites it figured something was wrong with itself and run off a very short distance and piled up dead. Now as for the internet. First off Ray it isn't the same country we grew up in. Not even close to it. I can't see how gun enthusiasts expect to fight all the government's steps to trying to confiscate our firearms when we can't even get along and be civil on these forums. Far as I'm concerned I think the private pc and cell phones being two of the worse evils ever invented. Did you ever for a second think way back when you were that kid that these kind of inventions would be in every home? | |||
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Does your 7x57 deliver any less death than a .30/06 ...on 300yd deer?
I consider the best thing provided by the more powerful cartridges [eg: .300mag vs .30/06] is that they can provide the terminal velocity required for certain bullets to function/expand properly at the longer ranges. But does not necessarily mean that the more powerful round will kill any better than the .30/06 at the ranges where the 30/06 is still providing the necessary velocity for proper bullet function. If you were to shoot a deer at 200yd with either a .308win, .30/06, or .300mag how much faster [or slower] will it die in relation to each round? | |||
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I love using a .223 for whitetail deer. I have had excellent results with this caliber and so have some of my friends. Having said that, I also believe that bigger calibers can make up for poor shot placement. That doesn't mean that I think anyone should use larger calibers in the event that they have a bad shot, but shot placement is the most important (IMO). Lost deer can happen with any caliber. This topic and long range shooting always seems to get people excited. Edit: I meant long range hunting | |||
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SmokingJ. Your spot on, I never thought I would see somethning like electric lights, I was amazed when we finally got butane lights and they were on our walls inside the house!! but the indoor toilet took the cake, I was horified that people were taking a dump in my house  338zmag, I agree with you, and today I mostly use the medium or big bores for all my hunting. On rare ocassions I will use the 222, 223,6x45 for deer, mostly whitetail in Texas from a stand, and to fill my doe tag, and for Javalina and hogs. IMO the problem with the small bores is two fold, they sometimes don't leave a blood trail and this includes the 243 and 6mm Rem. so they work best in wide open mountain country. The other thing is if you hit the shoulder your bullet might blow up on the surface of the shoulder, but perhaps these newly constructed bullets and monolithics for the 22 and 6mm have solved the penetration problen. That said and again IMO, these tough 22 and 6mm bullets do leave exit holes, but do not leave the awesome internal damage as the old bullets like the 60 gr. Hornaday does..I have seen some of the new bullets used on deer and I'm not convienced that's the way to go???? I have had such good luck with the 60 gr. HP or SP in the 22's that I don't intend to fix what ain't broke. My 6x45 on the other hand is awesome with 75 gr. GS Customs monolithics on deer size game??? A proper bullet and proper placement is the key to killing power, do your hunting before you shoot is pretty good idea also. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Trax, Please provide a direct link to the quote below. If I made that statement I may wish to retract it or modify it. Thank you. "quote: Originally posted by Savage_99: I own a nice 757 and load it with 140s at a tad over 2800 fps and its death on deer out to 300 yards" Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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About animals suffering . . . A decade or so ago, I shot a deer, broadside to me, with a .35 Remington, at a range of about 75 yards. I was using a Thompson Contender with a 10" barrel mounted with a 2.5x scope. I had a great rest, the Contender was sighted in and I could shoot it well. At the shot . . . nothing. The buck did not startle and there was absolutely no change . . . no change . . . in his behavior. Had I missed? Through the scope, I saw a mark on his side right at where his heart was. Was it there before I shot, and I just didn't see it? I was positive of my hold, positive that my gun was sighted in. And I was 80% sure the mark hadn't been there before I shot. So I waited. After about a minute, the buck turned 180 degrees and started walking. Had I missed? But then he stumbled, turned about 90 degrees and started walking away from me. He walked slowly and haltingly, and dropped after having gone about 30 yards. My bullet had taken the top off his heart. Yet he hadn't even flinched at the sound of my shot, much less reacted from the impact of the bullet. I'm sure he felt something, and probably experienced some pain, but I'm convinced the pain wasn't overwhelming to the point where he was "suffering" in the sense the word is being used here. Make of this what you will, but I can readily accept that Ray Atkinson wasn't torturing animals. The deer, after all, don't view being shot with the same cultural biases as we do. (This does not mean that I advocate using a .22 LR for deer. Just that deer shot with one do not necessarily suffer.) | |||
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Trax, I see that you have logged in here. Please provide a link to the quote above that you attribute to me! Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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BL, I have seen animals such as moose continue grazing and browsing for sometime after taking a killing shot.. I have discussed the subject with vets and doctors and it has been proven that such animals as African buffalo and plainsgame go into some kind of shock (kenetic ?) when being eaten alive by preditors. I observed two wolves eating the hindquarters off a burro stuck in the mud and the burro made no effort to move. You can see this on Nat. Geo. quit often on the African preditor series. Pain and emotion are apparantly much higher in humans, more so in some than others, but it has also been reported with humans during stress in war..Adrenaline is a powerful drug my friend. Antis who sit in Ivory Towers and live in an emotional world of unrealistics surroundings have a hard time dealing with the real world and realities of life and death..Kindness is a fine quality in a person, but like most things if can be overplayed to the point of ridiculasness. Life is just that, and death and pain is a part of life that won't go away anytime soon, that part is saved for the hereafter I suspect. I have hunted all my life, and I have seen things that bothered me greatly, but I worked my way thru them all without blaming somebody. Most progressives, or liberals live in a world of "its my way or the highway". They want to change everyones way of life to match theirs, and they have no clue how the other half lives or rather is required to live. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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An overabundance of politically correct behaviour will be the eventual downfall of society. Just look at it's effects over the last 15 years. | |||
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Ray I had the same experience with a doe coming out of a Montana wheat field at 20 yards. It was the first time I had ever used the 150g Partitions in my 270, my handloads. I watched her trot away thinking I must've banged my scope and missed her completely. Then I looked at the tree behind her, it was like someone had painted it in blood. I looked over at the doe and she fell like lightning had hit her 10 seconds after the shot. I have no idea what causes that. The bullet performed perfectly I took out the top of her heart and destroyed her lungs. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Ray, I agree. Adrenalin rush + panic can be a powerful narcotic. And when an animal knows it's doomed it can just shut down. I think there may be something else working in my example, and perhaps in the deer you shot with a .22, and I'll speculate. The deer I shot (and the ones you shot?) seemed to have no idea it was under attack (a human would have been, and being conscious of that would have heightened a human's physiologic response). I'm sure my deer knew something happened, but likely had no idea whatsoever that he'd been severly wounded, much less that he had mere seconds to live. Pain? Probably some, but apparently not severe ("Damn - that was a big bee."). Terror or panic at what his future held, and the adrenalin rush that would accompany that? Almost certainly not. My bullet snuck in between his ribs, took off the top of his heart, and stopped. There is the unknown question of how sensitive that area of a deer's body is and how they process whatever sensation reaches the central nervous system. Also, there was virtually no blood externally, so the smell of his blood probably wouldn't have been much of a factor. I think that it's hard for us not to anthropomorphize - for us humans to assume that animals see the world and react to it in the same way we do, especially in those areas where we know things they can't possibly, and where we can forecast our future in ways they can't. Then, our psychology kicks in and magnifies the physiological response. This is pure speculation, and I offer it only for what it's worth, though I do have some small knowledge of how sensory systems work. | |||
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Lloyd Smale is on the Graybeard web site all the time and what I see of his posts he thinks he is the last word on all subjects. I know Savage 99 is on there also. As far as killing deer with a 22 rimfire I did myself for a couple of deer in my youth. I don't believe they suffered any. I for feel shot placement is far more important that using a larger caliber. I know I have killed a lot of deer with my 6mm rifles out to 250yds and never had any problems. Good Shooting, George | |||
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Trax, I see that you have logged in here. Please provide a link to the quote above that you attribute to me! (second request) Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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