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A few year back, the Cedar Knoll Hunt Club in SC, looked at the DATA from hundreds of deer kills over several years. IIRC, their DATA indicated that on average, deer shot with 25 cal rifles traveled less than any other. you can quibble over the conclusions, but at least it was an analysis of data, not just the opinion of one pompous poster in an Internet forum. | |||
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I have shot enough big game of deer size to be sure that one cannot tell much difference in killing power between a 30-30 and a 30-06 or any other deer rifle up to 100 or even 200 yards perhaps with all things equal, but that senario changes as the range increases..But up to perhaps 300 yards I doubt that any can tell the difference in killing power between a 243 or 250-3000 and any other caliber until you get into the magnums and even then it would be hard to tell any difference with the same bullet placement. The difference is in trajectory and the bigger guns win that one but within reason only by mere inches as a matter of fact. the difference will come into play moreso with larger than deer game such as elk and moose and some African plainsgame like Eland, but even then its questionalbe and range related. So many things come into play for instance deer shot with a .338, 9.3x62, 375, 416 or whatever, always seem to run 25 to 100 yards when shot thu the heart and lungs..that is because of bullet construction and those big bore bullets don't expand on lighter game, those big bores btw will ruin much less meat and blood shot shoulder is less of problem than those shot with a 243 or 270..so there ya go. The author of the book simply tells me that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this post doesn't even touch the subject, it could go on forever and usually does. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I can honestly say that my experience has been that anything from a .243 on up kills deer about the same, provided you use a proper bullet and make a good shot. | |||
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It's all about the bullet, the rest is bullshit and too many guys reading Field and Stream on the crapper.... | |||
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Agree, deer and black bear go down easily with a well placed bullet from a 243. I used to shoot 105g Speer spritzers at 3000 fps from mine. It worked wonderfully. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I've shot deer W/30/06, 7mm08, 280 Rem, 8X57,.243, 12ga. slugs & .535 round balls as well as Bear Razorheads. Of all of the above I've never seen anything flatten a deer like a .535 round ball through the shoulders @ close range when leaving the muzzle @ > 1800 fps. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I use my 7mm Rem Mag for Nebraska deer. Why? I am hunting open land, an the farmer wants them gone. A little flatter shooting than my .308. And I like the rifle. Love the balance, and shoot it well. My newest gun is a .300 Win Mag (someday "Elk" gun). I will use that this season, for no other reason than I have it and I want to. Will it work better than the 7mm or .308? Not if I do my part. I just like Magnum rifles. Just one of those things I guess. When my little girl gets old enough, she will have a 7-08. Works well, lighter recoil, and I can get it in pink. If it is legal, and you shoot it well, use it. All else is just what we do to amuse ourselves till deer season. | |||
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+1  I don't shoot deer anymore. It seems I have lost my will to kill. However, I shot a lot of deer in my time with everything from 20 gauge slugs to a 30/30 or a 30/06, most with a 7mm Mag but not many over 200 yards. The last several deer that I took have been with a little .257 Roberts and a 100 grain TSX. Works pretty well if I do my part. My long time hunting partner (God rest his soul) was a big fan a little Ruger 25-06. Many deer fell to that gun too. Most of these deer were large bodied deer shot along the Republican River in Nebraska, close to the Kansas border.Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Any energy that remains after a pass though is wasted energy. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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So this thread, plus the other million threads on the same subject, indicate that none of it really means jack shit... | |||
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The only thing that drops animals on the spot is CNS damage. No brain/spinal cord/nerve impulse = no movement. That is not caliber dependent. Exsanguination is a different story- the faster the exsanguination the quicker the death (see above - no blood pressure no blood to brain). Way too many variables here with respect to shot placements, what was hit, where, etc. Meat damage- luck of the draw - hit bone/no bone, hit blood vessels, etc, etc. The latter can be caliber and marksmanship dependent. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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I wish I had this guy with me when my dad leased a ranch in old Mexico many years ago across from our family ranch, and he had to fence the whole 30,000 acres of mountain country out of Boquillas, Mex. in the Sierra Del Carmen mountains. He hired me that summer to shoot deer for the fencing crew, both Mule deer and Coues deer, The coues have been labeled Del Carmin Whitetail by SCI for whatever reason..The place was crawling with deer that had probably never been shot at because at the time the Mex Feds had confiscated every gun in that area, and to this day most don't have guns unless they are bandits... I shot 4 or 5 deer a day. I used a 22 LR with hollow points and solids, used heart and lung shots..I rode my horse to within 25 to 30 yards and shot each deer twice with my Win. 63 and immediatly rode off. I made about a 4 mile circle each day or so..As long as I just rode off then they would lay down and some continued to graze after being shot!!, if I pushed them at all they would take off and cause all kinds of problems recovering them..I learned this from an old Mexican poacher who worked on the crew. After the hunt circle I went back and gutted them as they had died by then and i went and got some of the crew to bring them in. Kept the crew fed and didn't lose any deer, not one. On a side note we also traded a deer for a wash tub of quail from the locals...Those village kids would build a circular wire pen and herd those Mt. Quail by clicking two rocks together. one kid on each side and one in the middle and they could move those quail at their will in any direction they wanted. The penned them and ran in and shut the gate, That was amazing and it sure worked...They also had a set of old bed springs, the one with cone shaped springs, stood it on four cinder blocks, put grain underneath. The quail would come to feed each morning and they would slam the kitchen door the quail would fly up and stick in those cone shaped springs and the feathers would stick out and they could not escape. They pulled them out and put them in a pen and ate them as they needed as they had no refrideration..The locals lived on quail and they were plentiful..They really appreciated me for trading them deer. They also fed me beans, deer meat, Pico de Gallo, tortillas and garden vegatables..Lots better than the camp cook. Those ladies could cook... It was a good life for a kid for sure. I thought it might be an interesting story and apply to what a well placed shot can actually do. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Could it be possible that the guys shooting the 25 calibers in the article were better shots? The one sure conclusion I've come to on this subject is that marksmanship counts. | |||
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That has always been the conclusion I drew from that study. The .257 Roberts and the .25-06 are both favored by guys who are rifle nuts, whereas most of the bubbas who just buy a box of ammo at Walmart and go hunting use .243s, .270s, or .30-06s. | |||
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That's pretty much what I was thinkin', too. But then according to savage99's Internet expert , we either haven't killed enough deer or we are prejudiced. Oh, to be so smart.  | |||
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Wildcat junkie, There are two schools of thought on a bullet expending all its energy in an animal or making two holes in one.. Respectfully, I am of the two holes is better school, A entrance hole and an exit hole allow air to rush in and push a lot more blood out on the ground and that kills quickly, and tracking is easier. I have seen big game animals hit well make many tracks with both types of shots ..I have seen some deer lost that were shot with 22s 6mms and explosive bullets in many calibers, that only punched one hole and and the animal got away only to be found some days later not far from where it was shot as a rule, many time the entrance was plugged with fat, sometimes not and just didn't leave any blood as it bled out internally, and got into another bunch of deer or crawled up under some thick stuff and died... I have never seen any evidence at all that a shot that dumps all its energy inside and animal kills any better than one that blows two big holes in the animal..In therory it sounds good but thats about it IMO..It is one of those written word rumors by some expert, that is taken for granite to be so and repeated by many and therefore accepted by many.. Just my opine on the subject and certainly argueable I suppose. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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An interesting part of this discussion seems like it doesn't take terrain, cover, and local conditions into consideration... Here on the Brushy, thick East Coast - that's full of people... A shot out past 100 yards is an oddity unless you are hunting a bean field or a power line cut.... The average shot is well under 50 yards.... and you have neighbors EVERYWHERE - so you don't want a super efficient, high BC bullet carrying for 8 miles.... At those ranges - you really don't need a huge cartridge - because your bullet is still traveling nearly at Muzzle Velocity... It's interesting how the Gun Rags in the 30's through the 60's had battles waging between the Back East folks advocating smaller, quieter, easier to carry walking hunting rifles - while the folks out west advocated the newest, fastest, hottest thing available.... Both were right - but the Out West/Longshot guys won... It's just more fun to read about 3,500 fps than it is to read about 1,700 fps... and you see folks carrying 300 Wby's, 7mm Rem Mags, and modern, full house 45/70's out hunting for deer.... and they make a huge mess at 30 yards... Bust a little deer to pieces... Alert every single person within 20 miles when that artillery goes off, etc... Sure... I have 308's, 30-06's, and even bigger stuff like my 577/450 MH - but I like hunting with a down-loaded 30-30 and my 7.62x39.... Plenty deadly when you aim.... Thanks | |||
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I'm sure Mr. Smale is a deer killin' expert but with that kind of "logic", the only good .30 cal cartridge is the .300 Wby; it's much superior and will kill much 'better' than the -06 at ranges beyond 800 yards, but I'd rather use what I need for what I do than sit around agonising about which cartridge would be better for what I don't do. Right now I can't say I've ever seen any deader deer between my .243, 7mm Rem, .308, 30-06 or .35 Rem. Actually, my preference is the old 336/.35 R when conditions are right because it's a joy to use and destroys virtually no meat. | |||
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I've always found the big bore/hyper velocity argument to be something of a pissing contest. If you read between the lines, the implication seems to be that you aren't really a proper rifleman (or maybe even a man) if you can't handle the big stuff. Well maybe I'm not a real man because frankly, I don't enjoy shooting firearms with vicious recoil. In my experience, they hinder rather than facilitate accurate shot placement and in my opinion, shot placement is everything. This is why, when hunting deer sized animals, I would much rather use something like a 6.5x55 or a 7x57 or 7mm-08 or .308 than a 7mm Mag or 30-06 as tipping point examples. I think these latter two cartridges are over-powered for deer. Even the .270 Win can in my experience be overly destructive when it comes to taking medium game at medium ranges; ranges where most medium game is shot. If I was the sort of person who considered it appropriate to use deer-sized animals for target practice at ranges over 300 or so yards (some people talk about killing deer at 800+ yards) then maybe I'd want to shoot one of those new hyper magnums things that are all the rage, but I'm not. Frankly I consider this type of shooting unethical. Hunting for me is about stalking as close as possible and, once in a position where a reasonably sure shot can be taken, killing the animal as quickly as possible with a correctly placed shot. | |||
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Most people shoot better with mild-recoiling rifles. I know I do. I probably shoot the best with my 6.5x55. It's a relatively heavy rifle, in a modestly powerful chambering, so recoil is almost nonexistent. It also has a really good trigger. When I'm shooting the Swede, I can actually watch the bullet strike, and I know as soon as I pull the trigger that the deer is dead. I've used everything up to a hot-loaded .45-70, and I can shoot fairly well with all of them, but it doesn't feel as effortless to shoot well with a gun that knocks the slobber out of me. | |||
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I have taken a few short of 300 deer.In my limited experience I have found that if shot through the vitals it makes NO DIFFERENCE what they are shot with.If you shoot 100 deer NO two will have the same reaction.If it is in that animal to run 100 yds thats where its going.Your Favorite lightning bolt with a trigger may leave you with a tough tracking job next time,but that does not mean it failed you.I personally think the animal decides. It does seen to me that heart shot deer run worse than any | |||
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I' gave up counting the number of deer I've put in the freezer and can attest to the fact that my favorite rifles are of 25 caliber and 26 caliber and I've shot deer with almost everything from the .222 up to the .375 H&H. I'll even add in the 6mm calibers as superior deer killing rounds. When one tells me that the .30-06 is a superior deer round over the "quarterbores" and similar rounds....he's simply full of ga ga.... A fly swatter will kill flies on a wall as well as a 16" projectile from the USS Wisconsin.....and that analogy applies to a lot of hunting. Right now my best deer round is a 120 grain North Fork from a stoutly loaded M-98 custom in 6.5 X 55.....and if the range is expected to be long....the .264 Win Mag comes out....there is no need to shoot larger calibers and more energy at 300 pound (on the hoof) deer. Yup....I own a .30-06 but it's a lot of overkill for deer......and it don't kill faster or deader! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Interesting story | |||
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Atkinson wrote: "I shot 4 or 5 deer a day. I used a 22 LR with hollow points and solids, used heart and lung shots..I rode my horse to within 25 to 30 yards and shot each deer twice with my Win. 63 and immediatly rode off. I made about a 4 mile circle each day or so..As long as I just rode off then they would lay down and some continued to graze after being shot!!" What you wrote is not sporting or good hunting! Just think how those poor deer suffered while slowly dying! That's why the .22's are not even legal. "Use enough gun." Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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Who are you to judge?? Why would that be any different than an arrow thru the lungs. He was legally harvesting animals for meat, not sport hunting. Have you joined PETA? | |||
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Anything I've killed in the last 4 years has been with either a 257 Roberts or a 6.5x55. For deer/hogs on down, they just work. | |||
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In Ray's defense, he never said it was sporting or anything of the sort....he was feeding a work crew..... another "holyier-than-thou" post it seems... Atkinson's post is among the most entertaining and interesting post I've ever read on the internet.....and that says something. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I don't think Ray was even advocating the use of .22 LR for deer. It was just an illustrative example of how shot placement beats power every time. When it comes down to it, a deer is rather easy to kill. You need to drive a bullet through a few inches of soft tissue, and it's a done deal. | |||
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 Well it's fess up time.  As a youth I've killed deer with a 22LR that dropped right Now ( head shots). With some well placed frontal chest shots between 10 and 20 yards, I gave deer a slow death. Besides adrenaline tainted meat don't taste that great. Looking back I saw myself as being wrong and immature.  Ray and VD have been some of my favorite posters but we vary now and than. This is one of those times.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Just an observation here on my part, nothing more. The concept that people need to keep in mind, is that when folks like Mr. Atkinson or any of us that are on the downhill side of 55, and had been raised in a rural setting, "Sport" hunting had not really taken hold when we were in our teens and twenties, maybe early 30's. Between our parents/grand parents/uncles-aunt's and family acquaintences, the actual concept of going out and "Hunting ANYTHING" for the fun of it, did not really exist. You wanted or needed to shoot a deer, you grabbed whatever gun was available and because deer were not pursued as they are today, you trolled around till you found one in a situation where you could take one shot, ease off a eways and let the animal die. Ethics/ethical concepts had really not appeared on the horizon. Most folks, again those in rural areas, still viewed wildlife from a subsistence form of food mentality. It might be helpful if everyone would take the time to understand that a person describing incidents that happened 40, 50 or even more years ago, does not in any way mean they are advocating such actions/behaviors in todays world, they are just passing along information about how things used to be. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It's absolutely disgusting and an embarrassment to all decent hunters that a person would shoot deer in the body with a .22 long rifle and then ride off to let them suffer and maybe die later. Disgusting. How did he know that each one of them died there or ran off suffering? He didn't know! Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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I've killed more than 50 deer and less than one hundred so I'm a total newbie (really) in comparison. I've killed them with a 243, a 270 and this year with my 500 Jeffery if I get a good shot, just because I can ... I'm definitely taking the 500 Jeffery on my cow elk hunt. Shots should be under 250 yards and that's well within the 500's range  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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They suffered to death and he rode off. I don't believe that he did not misplace some deer. How can you find a whitetail deer that's shot with a .22LR? They might walk for miles. He didn't find them. What he did is disgusting. Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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I'll through in the UK perspective. I am shooting 20 to 30 deer a year - quite low for a UK stalker - a mix of Roe deer - a big one is 15 kg dressed (ie gralloch end, head and legs off, but skin on) and red deer - 40 to 50 kg for e females, 75kg plus for the stags. I use a 243 with 100gn softpoints and a 7mm with 140 or 154gn soft points. Mostly heart lung shots, but occasional head shot if needs be. Save for the head shots 50% take a couple of steps and fall over, the rest run for 10 to 50 yds and pile up dead. I haven't noticed any real difference between the two calibres and bullet sizes. What does make a difference is if the deer are alert to you, or full of adrenalin because they are coming into a doe or a call. If they are grazing peacefully they drop on the spot, if they are alert / adrenalin up, they will usually run. I have found with the 243 though at close range and at longer ranges ( 200 or so yds) I have had penetration issues on red deer with shoulder shot. Close range bullet blows up due to high velocity, and at longer range hasn't penetrated the near side shoulder. Both are actually fault of wrong shot placement ( driver error) rather than calibre per se. For 90% of UK stalking a 243 and up is perfectly adequate. In some woodland scenarios you might want a bigger calibre shooting a big fat bullet at modest velocity to get penetration from any angle, or if you are in the Scottish highlands a 270 will be a bit better for he longer ranges if required. | |||
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What's disgusting is sitting at a keyboard 1000 miles away and calling a man a liar. Especially when weren't there and have no idea what happened. | |||
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Fair enough. However, Atkinson's liberal interpretation of truth and reality is well documented on AR. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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I believe I will take Mr. Atkinson's interpretations of what he has actually experienced during his career over the interpretations of those with less experience and high moral/ethical standards, any day. Just my opinion. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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[QUOTE] The topic is about quicker kills and not shot placement! [QUOTE] Does not good shot placement often result in quicker kills? [QUOTE] Besides a larger wound makes "shot placement" easier! [QUOTE] A lower recoiling rifle can also make for better shooting/more accurate shot placement. --------------------------- I recall Saeed telling he solidly hit a reasonably small African antelope with his uber magnum.375/404j improved. The creature apparently showed no notably different reaction or speed of death, to other similar antelope, that have been solidly shot with much smaller cartridges. | |||
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