I have really increased my long range practice since I have acquired my 300WBY Thor's Hammer. I use to shoot long range like 300 to 400 yards with my 30-06 and it is capable of those ranges but I had to practice.

The 30-06 is viewed by many as a competent 300 yard cartridge and I certainly agree with that statement. The actual effective distance remains in the hands of the shooter who has practiced or has not practiced. I agree with a lot of you other guys on this forum, that even if a person has a cartridge perfectly capable of accomplishing a 300 yard shot, it is all dependent on the shooter and his proficiency.

If you practice enough with it and have your ranges right I am sure you will do fine at the ranges you limit yourself to because of ability. There is a lot of BS when it comes to making long shots and any person who goes to the range and trys to practice at long range knows this to be true. I have pacticed for years at long range shooting (not at the level of some others I know) and also hunting making some long shots like 426 yards on a coyote with my 06 using a 165gr Sierra game king. But I have also missed taking some of those long shots. I really try and get as close as possible without scaring the game off because my chances of hitting the game increases in probability of a kill by shortening the distance to the target. Even when I think I am as close as I can get I do use a range finder every time. A person can't estimate good enough to make real long shots without a range finder. Shooting long distance is hard to do. I don't care what anyone says it is hard to do and without a range finder and a rock solid rest you will not kill at long ranges. Practice is the most important thing a hunter can do to insure good results in the field.

Better to hit your target with a slower but capable cartridge like the 06, rather than miss with a faster one like the Rum or WbY!! Right? If that is true then so is this: "Better to hit your target with a faster but more capable cartridge like the Rum or WBY, rather than miss with a slower capable cartridge like the 06!! Right? Neither has any meaning or validity if the shooter can't do it with the cartridge he is trying to make a long shot with. Skill level is the key more so than cartridge!! But if you are skilled then faster is better because it is more than just a capable cartridge and it makes up for small margins at long distances of over 350 yards.

The 30-06 is a great cartridge but in a skilled shooters hands he can even shoot farther making quicker more humane kills with a Rum or WBY type cartridge. Of course it all gets down to whether or not a person can really make a long shot and knows he can because he spends time practicing at long ranges with his rifle and cartridge. Reading ballistic charts and assuming you can make a long shot because your rifle and cartridge are capable of doing so does not mean you are. Take it out and see if you can and if you can't then practice until you can or until you have found the limit of your accuracy at long range with the given cartridge, rifle and optics you are shooting.

I agree that the 300 weatherby is an excellent long range cartridge. I love plinking and coyote hunting with mine. I also agree that it takes skill to shoot something at long range distances. I think it takes more skill to hit something with an -06 at 400 yards than it does with a 300 weatherby. I also think that stalking as close as possible to the game is one of the inherent challenges and more exciting aspects of hunting.

That said, I personally don't shoot at any game, excluding varmints, pigs, and coyotes, out past ~275 yards depending on circumstances and the conditions. I don't agree with you that, "even if a person has a cartridge perfectly capable of accomplishing a 300 yard shot, it is all dependent on the shooter and his proficiency" because circumstances and conditions can cause the best of shots to miss at long distances. These occassionally unavoidable circumstances are the reason I limit my distances, not my skill level or the rifle's capability. Some of these conditions that arise when shooting game out past 300/350 yards are a change of wind direction, a branch or other impediment in the bullets way that couldn't be seen from that distance through the scope, and the animal moving after the shot is taken and before the bullet gets there (the primary reason I don't like shots that are too long). These, amongst others, factors are variables that cannot be avoided by any shooting expert. The longer the shot, the more at risk you are that something will go afoul that you could not help. This can result in injured animals, lost animals, and missed shots.

You are right that skill level means more than cal etc., but there are just certain variables that no rifleman can avoid that come with long shots and increase with distance. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
The longer the shot, the more at risk you are that something will go afoul that you could not help. This can result in injured animals, lost animals, and missed shots.

You are right that skill level means more than cal etc., but there are just certain variables that no rifleman can avoid that come with long shots and increase with distance. Just my opinion.

This is also my thinking! As a former sniper in the Norwegian army, I have made som spectacular shots a long ranges - on paper targets. But game is another story completely. Enemy soldiers are supposed to be vounded, but game is supposed to die. On game, at longer ranges than 300 yards, I feel to much can happen to let go the shot.

But long range shooting is very good shooting, and maybe one day I have to shoot wounded game at long ranges - at that point, every bullet in the animal is a good one.

Hey Beartooth, Excellent post!

I think that both of you have made good points. But I will if I can't get close take the long shot. I have not lost a single game animal that I have hit even when a second shot was needed. I can't remember in the 30yrs of hunting where I have taken the the first shot that the shot would not have killed the game. I would take a secoond so I would not have to track the animal. I will not loose a trophy if I can help it because I can't get real close, but at the same time I will not take a shot that I have not practice at the distance I am fixing to shoot. Also I know my limit of accuracy and yes there are varibles on long shots but that is were practice, practice and practice comes in and that is why I have confidence to take the shot.

I agree practice does make thedifference.

3 shot group at 425 yards with the 300 win and 180 grain TSX ahead of 81 grains of H-1000 and federal 215 primers

quote:

This is also my thinking! As a former sniper in the Norwegian army, I have made som spectacular shots a long ranges - on paper targets. But game is another story completely. Enemy soldiers are supposed to be vounded, but game is supposed to die.

I though military snipers were supposed to kill the intended target? I know wounded soldiers take more people out of the fight than dead ones. My Drill Sergents still tried to instill the "One Shot, One Kill" mentality in us.

I agree that a person needs a lot more trigger time to take game beyond 300 yards than the average hunter. That way they have complete understanding of the trajectory of their given cartridge. Even with the equipment available to make the long shots these days nothing replaces trigger time.

in coaching people to shoot, my 1st item to tell them is to spend less money on the gun and more on ammo, then go shoot it up

what no 5 shot groups? just kidding that is great shooting!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I agree practice does make thedifference.

3 shot group at 425 yards with the 300 win and 180 grain TSX ahead of 81 grains of H-1000 and federal 215 primers

Great post Beartooth...

a wise man said

"reload, shoot and repeat...often"

quote:

in coaching people to shoot, my 1st item to tell them is to spend less money on the gun and more on ammo, then go shoot it up

I used to follow that reasoning as well then along the way I wanted both. Good rifles and good ammo. I started buying better quality firearms, and started reloading better quality ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I agree practice does make thedifference.

3 shot group at 425 yards with the 300 win and 180 grain TSX ahead of 81 grains of H-1000 and federal 215 primers

Very nice indeed and excellent, yes excellent shooting. Thank you for sharing that with me. By the way what rifle and cartridge did you make this good shot with?

That is why I go to a gas pipe line on our lease to shoot my long shots while practicing different positions and all shooting sticks and bipods are not equal. Bought me one and went to try it out at long distance and man I could not steady my rifle like I thought I could when I bought the stick. When I got home I put it in my shed and have never picked it up again. Practice, practice and more practice is needed but shooting practice is fun to me. By the way I am shooting my 416WBY real good at 300yds. I just love that rifle and cartridge but also looking forward to my 257-300WBY soon. The 300WBY I have shot very well at distance also. A friend of mine said I could not hit with it at 600 yrds. Well we ranged a rock that was around 2 ft x 2ft. I took a very steady rest from a sitting position after placing my back pack on a large rock in front of me. Then placing my rifle on this steady rest I slowly squeezed the first round off and parts of that rock went in every direction. I guess that 180gr TSX hits harder than most think it will. Here is my round and some groups that I fired with my Custom Mark V German receiver and shilen barrel with a McMillan stock. I am shooting a 180gr TSX and moving it on the average at 3287fps.



Three shot group at 100yds measures .0095"


The second one is 100yd .296"


The third group is at 200yds .678"

I'm with maddenwh and Bent Fossdal 100%. Shots beyond 300 yards are potential game wounders no matter who the shooter is or what equipment he is using. Animal movement and wind are the main uncontrolable factors. Tight groups from a rest at the range are fun and educational, but they don't necessarily produce sure killing shots in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Remington720:
I'm with maddenwh and Bent Fossdal 100%. Shots beyond 300 yards are potential game wounders no matter who the shooter is or what equipment he is using. Animal movement and wind are the main uncontrolable factors. Tight groups from a rest at the range are fun and educational, but they don't necessarily produce sure killing shots in the field.

I practice long range shooting the same way that I would shoot in the field when hunting







Beartooth, The groups shot on the gong were shot with my 300 win mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Remington720:
I'm with maddenwh and Bent Fossdal 100%. Shots beyond 300 yards are potential game wounders no matter who the shooter is or what equipment he is using. Animal movement and wind are the main uncontrolable factors. Tight groups from a rest at the range are fun and educational, but they don't necessarily produce sure killing shots in the field.

Well I have in 30yrs of long range hunting killed at my best count lookiing back at my hunting diary, 247 animals (this number includes white tail, mule deer and elk) at over 300yds, the longest being 618yrs and have not lost a single one. All but six of that number were one shot kills. I whole heartly disagree with you if the shooter, hunter is able and good at it when it comes to long shots.

Afraid I will get myself in real trouble here, but have to do it anyway, my conscience requires it....

I am continually amazed by the people who call long range animal shooting "hunting". To me it is not hunting at all. Hunting is learning to find the animal on it's own home turf, learning to stalk close enough to get a sure, humane, killing shot regardless what the terrain is, and delivering that shot without flaw. Those requirements act together to rule out long range animal shooting as sport, and hunting is a sport.

Though I must agree there are damned few rifle shots I have seen who can shoot well on game without lots of practice on targets, I believe he opposite is not true....that is, just because a person can shoot long-range targets well, does NOT mean he/she is equipped either equipment or skill-wise to shoot long range at living, breathing, feeling animals.

I say all this having done control shooting on elk at up to 4 digit distances (because it was a required part of the operation... I quit after 3 years of it because it offended my personal morals) and having been a good enough long range target shot to have been a Palma Team member (and was).

I fully agree with those who choose to limit their shots not because of what they can or can't do when shooting at paper or steel targets, but because of the unpredictability of what the weather and the animals may do while the bullet is in flight.

No one can stop the bullet, call it back, and re-fire it for a humane kill when one of those unpredictable things happen. On the other hand, if he/she gets close enough...that is, learns to hunt like a sportsman, humane kills are still more likely the outcome even if the animal does move unexpectedly or the wind does puff suddenly.

A hunting license is not a license which gives one a moral right to shoot at, wound, maim, and other-wise harass animals until they finally bring one to bag. It gives a person the right to HUNT...H U N T, in every sense of seeking, stalking, outwitting, and getting close enough to deliver a humane killing shot with an absolute minimumn risk of making a fetid, putrid, dog's breakfast of the whole affair.

(My personal belief is that it does not matter how much a person paid for the hunt. He buys the right to hunt, not to get an animal. If he just wants to kill an animal he should volunteer his services at the local stockyard.)

Killing is not the primary objective. Anyone can do that if he throws enough lead in the air.

Interesting point of view and I am sure you have as you said "my conscience requires it." Fine, but don't try and hang it on me. I have packed over 12 miles at sometimes to get where no one goes and made 20 and 30yd shots at times and at other times made a long one. If you are so concerned about how the animal feels then don't kill them at all. I kill them and eat them. I feel more for people than for animals that is why I do a lot a charity work for children with borken homes and take them in my home at times till they can find a family or get their lives in order. Now you go practice your morality on someone else but as for me I will kill game up close and far off so I guess you know how I feel. Now I will respect your position and will allow you to do it your way as long as it does not break the law, but you need make sure you allow me to do what I like to do as long as I don't break the law. Also it is condesending for you to think of yourself an method as though you are the enlightened one and the rest of us who can and shoot long distance game are not. Nothing personal, I just don't buy your position .

Beartooth -

You may notice, I did not suggest you had to believe the same as I do. I wrote how I feel about it.

If you feel you have to put that shoe on and then find it uncomfortable, that is something you can deal with on your own. It is no cause for me to not express my opinion on the subject which, after all, you first raised in this thread and posted for "discussion".

I still feel that way, and I do not kill animals except to eat them or, in other circumstances, to relieve their suffering or prevent harm to people by them.

Whether you wish to do otherwise is your decision.

I guess you did not really read my response with complete understanding. I feel very comfortable in what I do and the shoes I wear. I also told you, "Now I will respect your position and will allow you to do it your way as long as it does not break the law, but you need make sure you allow me to do what I like to do as long as I don't break the law. Also it is condesending for you to think of yourself an method as though you are the enlightened one and the rest of us who can and shoot long distance game are not. Nothing personal, I just don't buy your position ." Now you know I understand you and I hope you understand me. As you were allowed by me to express your feelings then you allow the same. Now like civil men lets go on knowing we do not agree on somethings.

Practice makes the sport, or words to that effect, is what all rifleman should be about. In my Navy Rifle team days all we did was practice practice practice with the .30-06 M-1 and later the much more enjoyable .308/7.62mm versions. Now I hunt big game instead of paper targets and the word from the Professional Hunters who have replaced the team coaches remains the same, PRACTICE. Whether the shooting is at 25 yards or 350 yards, the key to success is lots of practice, plus, of course good ammunition. I had an ammo failure this past spring which I am correcting in my future safaris, my minimum rifle is a .30-06! And when I am hunting for food in the USA I take a huge step downward and use the 6.5x54mm which downs Texas deer first time every time, with, I forgot to say it, practice.
LLS

Great picture man and I am with you on the deer rifle and cartridge. I am having made right now a 257-300WBY with a Bell & Carlson Metalist stock which will be bedded and barrel free floated topped with a Ziess 4.5-14x44mm and will be using a 100gr TSX. Can't wait to get it and develope a load for it. My friend has one and his hunting load with the 100TSX is moving over 4060fps on the average with a group size average of .296" and he sights it in at 2.9 at 100yds and is -8" at 500.

quote:

Originally posted by beartooth:
Now like civil men lets go on knowing we do not agree on somethings.

I have no problem with that. Just wanted to be sure you understood that my view is neither condescending, dissing anyone, nor that of a sophomore in this sporting aspect of the world. Just perhaps more conservative than most....


(Should you wish to discuss it, either publicly or privately, I would be interested in which specific parts of my post you disagree with.)

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by beartooth:
Now like civil men lets go on knowing we do not agree on somethings.

I have no problem with that. Just wanted to be sure you understood that my view is neither condescending, dissing anyone, nor that of a sophomore in this sporting aspect of the world. Just perhaps more conservative than most....

Yes, and you have the absolute right to be that way and don't think I don't respect your belief and position on taking game. At least you hold one and it is not some change view depending upon the circustances and that I see clearly in your writting and that I can respect. I hope you have a great hunting season this year. Let us know how it goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
But game is another story completely. Enemy soldiers are supposed to be vounded, but game is supposed to die. On game, at longer ranges than 300 yards, I feel to much can happen to let go the shot.

Very wise words! We ought to pay close attention and PRACTCICE as much as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I am continually amazed by the people who call long range animal shooting "hunting". To me it is not hunting at all.
...
Killing is not the primary objective. Anyone can do that if he throws enough lead in the air.

Even an animal hit very well sometimes just runs away, without appearing to be hit. When recoveder lateron, one wonders how the still copuld make it that far. When not hit very well, this is worse.

We all know that even at short distances (100 meters and less) it is sometimes very difficult to find the exact spot where the animal stood when shot at. At 300 meters or more with diminishing light, this can become close to impossible. If (!) you come back the very next morning, find the spot trail the animal and find it dead, the meat is most likely spoiled for sure.

Common understanding here is that when you shoot at a big game animal and miss, you first go to look for sign as hair and blood. If you don't find any, you bring a trained dog to search and check, if the animal is indeed not wounded. If you find sign that it is wounded, it is expected you trail it, in most areas when trailing a wounded animal you are even legally entitled to enter other leases or people's private.

This might appear exaggerated to some, it is however from our point of view the ethical and right thing to do.

Like stated several times here, it is animals we shoot at, not targets. Personally, there were many shots I have not taken, not because I don't shoot well but because it just not "felt right".

Very good reply to our conversation. Yes, you are right about hits, thats why we use dogs to track an animal that has been hit well but still runs some. Since using the TSX I have not had one go anywhere, but that is due also to shot placement as well that is why one must practice. Let me say that I believe the shorter shot is the one that should be taken and most who do not practice need to take the short shot. I try and take the short shot if I can but due to practice I will take a long one so as to not loose a good animal. Thanks, I enjoyed reading your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by beartooth:
I try and take the short shot if I can but due to practice I will take a long one so as to not loose a good animal.

After your successful hunting over the years, I understand your feelings. You have made exelent shots at very long ranges, and never missed an animal.
But You see, it is just a matter of time before an animal WILL moove when you did not think it would - and all the practise in the world can not save that shot. If you are very lucky, you will miss clean - at above 400 yards your bullet can hit the jaw as well as the belly.

Even at targets, strange hits sometimes happens. Hits one can not understand, nor explain - until the area is checked. Gusts of wind in the middle of the bullets flight, or a completely different air preassure where the target is. An unseen streem or canyon can be enough. If you have not seen shots like that over the years, I am sorry to say you just have not parctised ENOUGH.
When practising on target, you first set the target up. So you see where it is, and you walk/drive back to your rifle, so you see what is between your rifle and target. Then you shoot about 50 shots at the same target and pat your back.

Now, get a friend to set up ten different animalseize targets from 300 to 700 yards in unknown country with some variation - hills, creeks, canyons etc.
Show up and shoot one shot from cold barrel at each target. Do this every day for a week, then show us the statistics.

Combine this with an animal that gets spooked just when you squeese the trigger...

I am not trying to pick on you, just trying to make you see there is more to it than you thought.
As this is internet, I have absolutely no belief that you will admit you are wrong, but I could not care less. As long as there is a chanse that you might change your attitude in the field, I am content.

You have made some strong points and good ones. Yes, I have thought about what you have said, and know that it will happen if I continue to hunt long enough. Sure hope it doesn't but to validate your points it has happened to me on short shots. So it will I am sure happen. But let me just say my point was practice and that does not negate what you are others have said, but practice can not be over stress to build confidence and comfort when one finds the limits of their ability to shoot and hit what they are aiming at. This has been a good post and has brought so much to mind by all the very well thought out points. thanks

A really good shot will hit an animal at long range almost everytime, but he will certainly wound some animals, like it or not. He probably won't admit it however because the human ego is very tender...

A bad shot will simply miss at long range, go figure....

I believe game animals deserve all the respect that we can give them and we owe them a clean death. I think if one is a sure enough excellent shot then 300 yds is the limit, I believe if he is a hunter then he can get within 300 yards of the animal every time and if not he should pass. If one is not an excellent shot then he should admit it to himself and shoot accordingly within his capabilities. To do otherwise is just wrong.

I believe shooting belongs on the range and hunting belongs in the field..If you want to be a sniper then go to Iraq, you will be well recieved.

I don't intend to flame anyone here, just my views on hunting and shooting. I have done both and plead guilty, I have wounded animals as a result of my ability to shoot well at long range. It still bothers me btw, and I cannot condone it.

Some folks believe they can do this with regularity and like myself will learn differently and quit doing it, but some will continue to wound and we will find carcasses scattered about and they won't even give a damn..

There is no shortage of folks who will stand around the campfire exhorting the long range virtues of the caliber they use, who have never even shot the gun that far even at the range. Invariably, they blame the gun or cartridge if they miss a "chip shot".

The ego Atkinson described is alive and well in these guys too. In my experience, you cannot improve at any pursuit unless you honestly address what you yourself may be doing wrong.

How many clicks? How many mil-dots?

Unless you've actually practiced with that gun and load at those ranges. You are just guessing.

Ballistic charts are an educated guess but they are still a guess.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
There is no shortage of folks who will stand around the campfire exhorting the long range virtues of the caliber they use, who have never even shot the gun that far even at the range. Invariably, they blame the gun or cartridge if they miss a "chip shot".


The ego Atkinson described is alive and well in these guys too. In my experience, you cannot improve at any pursuit unless you honestly address what you yourself may be doing wrong.

How many clicks? How many mil-dots?

Unless you've actually practiced with that gun and load at those ranges. You are just guessing.

Ballistic charts are an educated guess but they are still a guess.

Amen on the just guessing if you have not really shot your rifle at those distances. Yes I agree.

But lets not forget that there is a lot of unetical hunting at short ranges too. I am now talking about animals in motion. Not very many people is stressing that. And I would say it takes a lot more practising to be a good shot at running targets than on long ranges. The thing about running targets that makes it "OK", is that the range is so close that follow'ups are easy. well, I still have seen animals shot at 50 yards been tracked for two days. The animal was taken at last - the poor thing had its jaw shot off and had not had either water nor food during the pursuit.

So I can understand Beartooths point of view at a certain point. If the area is an easy one, flat and boring, the challenge is a lot less than unknown country in, say, the Rockies. There is a big difference if that animal 600 yards out there is 200 yards away from the nearest cover, than if he is standing in a claring in the woods.
And it would feel a lot safer than quick shots at game in the woods - and probably wound less animals.

I wholeheartly applaude his idea of practising - know your equipment, how it works, and how it feels - no matter what kind of hunting you are doing.

But the main thing is to be able to see the difference in a paper target and an alive animal. Respect for the game is what makes it hunting, instead of sport.

My point is that many men who ban long range shooting, probably wound just as many animals with bad shooting close up. So what is worse?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
But lets not forget that there is a lot of unetical hunting at short ranges too. I am now talking about animals in motion. Not very many people is stressing that. And I would say it takes a lot more practising to be a good shot at running targets than on long ranges. The thing about running targets that makes it "OK", is that the range is so close that follow'ups are easy. well, I still have seen animals shot at 50 yards been tracked for two days. The animal was taken at last - the poor thing had its jaw shot off and had not had either water nor food during the pursuit.

So I can understand Beartooths point of view at a certain point. If the area is an easy one, flat and boring, the challenge is a lot less than unknown country in, say, the Rockies. There is a big difference if that animal 600 yards out there is 200 yards away from the nearest cover, than if he is standing in a claring in the woods.
And it would feel a lot safer than quick shots at game in the woods - and probably wound less animals.

I wholeheartly applaude his idea of practising - know your equipment, how it works, and how it feels - no matter what kind of hunting you are doing.

But the main thing is to be able to see the difference in a paper target and an alive animal. Respect for the game is what makes it hunting, instead of sport.

My point is that many men who ban long range shooting, probably wound just as many animals with bad shooting close up. So what is worse?

I think you are right about a lot of short shots that are taken every year where animals are wounded because shots were not placed well. You have to take you time on a long shot and I think that is why a lot of them are successful shots. Where on short shots many just take it for granted and hurry the shot with out really getting a good sight picture on the part of the animal you need to hit. thanks

And all of a sudden people lost interest.
Go figure!

Since starting reloading and visiting this site I have learned a ton of valuable information. I always respected the game I was hunting and I always wanted to make a quick and humane kill no matter what the range. However I sure found out my limitations when I started to imitate the performance , (group wise) by some of the posters here. I have worked on my reloads and I have worked on my bench shooting and I have worked on my field conditions shooting, very hard the last year or so. I now realize that what I once thought were my limits were greatly over estimated. I now however know and have confidence in my ability to a certain range. That confidence is real because it has been tested numerous times at that range. Let me tell you it is far short of what alot of people here are doing. You guys are my motivation to keep trying to improve. Trying to actually hit the target at a given range is alot different than looking at some gun writer's chart that says. "If you take cartridge"A" and site it in 3.2" high at 100 yds you will be in the kill zone out to 350".

quote:

Originally posted by chain:
Since starting reloading and visiting this site I have learned a ton of valuable information. I always respected the game I was hunting and I always wanted to make a quick and humane kill no matter what the range. However I sure found out my limitations when I started to imitate the performance , (group wise) by some of the posters here. I have worked on my reloads and I have worked on my bench shooting and I have worked on my field conditions shooting, very hard the last year or so. I now realize that what I once thought were my limits were greatly over estimated. I now however know and have confidence in my ability to a certain range. That confidence is real because it has been tested numerous times at that range. Let me tell you it is far short of what alot of people here are doing. You guys are my motivation to keep trying to improve. Trying to actually hit the target at a given range is alot different than looking at some gun writer's chart that says. "If you take cartridge"A" and site it in 3.2" high at 100 yds you will be in the kill zone out to 350".

Excellent and wise post. Very well said, and so true. One thing that might increase your limits after all you have done would seem to only be a change in equipement. That is first your rifle then optics. Pactice, good reloading, and equipement are the keys to increasing your limits. Now that might take some money but I have found through the years that if you do not have the equipement even though you are an outstanding and gifted shooter, your equipement can hold you back. Your comment, "Trying to actually hit the target at an given range is alot differetn than looking at some gun writer's chart that says. 'If you take cartridge "A" adn site it in 3.2" high at 100 yds you will be in the kill zone out to 350", is the exact reason I posted this thread "Practice makes the difference not Ballistic charts!!" Thanks, good reply.

I just bought and installed a new IOR 2.5 X 10 X 42. What a difference. I can see so much better. I sighted it in last weekend. I have since shot multiple 10 shot groups at almost 300 that measured 2" outside to outside. This is a good group for me as it was shot prone with a bi pod and no rear bag. I was trying to imitate the hunting conditions I had last year in Montana. I am heading there in 2 weeks. I shoot 10 shot groups after load development to practice and ensure I am being consistant and not just firing a lucky 3 shot string. I am confidant that I am ready. Although I will shoot 2 more ten shot groups for the next 2 Saturday's just to make sure and probably some milk jugs at various distances. Thanks

Good luck on your hunt in 2 weeks and be careful and safe. Let me know how it turns out.

Thanks I will. I am getting pretty anxious