The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Stretching the capabilities of the .30'06Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Stretching the capabilities of the .30'06 | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Those that state the 180 will do anythig the heavier bullets will do in the 06, have probably not used the 200 and 220 gr. Noslers or Woodleighs. I am convienced that the 200 and 220s are better on the really big animals, at least they seem to perform better on cape buffalo, Eland, even on elk and moose, than the 180s.. I have used the 180s on a lot of big animals and they work, but my one and only load these days in the 30-06 is the 200 gr. Nosler or Woodleigh at 2700 FPS, the same velocity as I shoot the 180, so go figure.. I speak only for myself but I base that after using both bullet weights, I personally believe the 200 works better..and up real close the 220 is even better or so it seems to me. I even use the 200 gr. Woodleighs and Noslers on deer with excellent results. I use the 220s in my iorn sighted 30-06, as I don't shoot very far with it anyway. I use the Sierra 220 on deer etc. and the Nosler partitions on elk, so trajectory is not a question but the 220s seems to hold up well enough to 200 yards and even quite well at 300 yards..I know I tend to over shoot most misses as opposed to under shoot. I have noticed most folks over shoot game. Lots of locals like the 150 and 165 gr. bullets on deer and elk, and they seem to do quite well, so I suppose its your option and as it should be. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
Right, I can get up to 3.440" OAL before kissing the land and this will fit in the magazine. Starting .020" off the lands, this is hunting ammo, gives an OAL of 3.420" or 2.790" to the ogive. Even at this seating length the base of the bullet is level with the base of the shoulder. Quickload predicts the following maximum loads H4350: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 61.464 grain H2O = 3.991 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4350 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.901% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -09.0 90 50.50 2404 2568 43095 9888 97.4 1.335 -08.1 90 51.00 2428 2618 44355 9979 97.8 1.317 -07.2 91 51.50 2451 2668 45654 10067 98.0 1.300 -06.3 92 52.00 2474 2719 46992 10152 98.3 1.282 -05.4 93 52.50 2498 2771 48372 10233 98.6 1.265 -04.5 94 53.00 2521 2822 49791 10312 98.8 1.249 -03.6 95 53.50 2544 2874 51260 10387 99.0 1.232 ! Near Maximum ! -02.7 96 54.00 2567 2927 52772 10459 99.2 1.216 ! Near Maximum ! -01.8 97 54.50 2590 2980 54332 10527 99.4 1.200 ! Near Maximum ! -00.9 98 55.00 2613 3033 55940 10591 99.5 1.185 ! Near Maximum ! +00.0 98 55.50 2636 3087 57600 10653 99.6 1.169 ! Near Maximum ! +00.9 99 56.00 2659 3141 59315 10710 99.8 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +01.8 100 56.50 2682 3195 61080 10763 99.8 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +02.7 101 57.00 2705 3249 62909 10813 99.9 1.124 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +03.6 102 57.50 2728 3304 64793 10858 100.0 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.5 103 58.00 2750 3360 66741 10900 100.0 1.096 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 98 55.50 2745 3346 69293 10256 100.0 1.086 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 98 55.50 2481 2733 46899 10561 95.2 1.278 Reloder 17 Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 61.464 grain H2O = 3.991 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.909% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -09.1 84 50.00 2455 2676 46111 9758 99.6 1.290 -08.2 85 50.50 2477 2725 47415 9825 99.7 1.273 -07.3 86 51.00 2499 2774 48757 9888 99.8 1.257 -06.4 87 51.50 2521 2823 50138 9948 99.9 1.241 -05.5 87 52.00 2543 2872 51556 10005 100.0 1.226 ! Near Maximum ! -04.5 88 52.50 2565 2921 53016 10057 100.0 1.210 ! Near Maximum ! -03.6 89 53.00 2587 2971 54516 10106 100.0 1.195 ! Near Maximum ! -02.7 90 53.50 2608 3021 56061 10153 100.0 1.180 ! Near Maximum ! -01.8 91 54.00 2630 3071 57646 10199 100.0 1.166 ! Near Maximum ! -00.9 92 54.50 2651 3121 59287 10245 100.0 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 93 55.00 2672 3172 60970 10290 100.0 1.137 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.9 93 55.50 2694 3222 62703 10335 100.0 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +01.8 94 56.00 2715 3273 64487 10380 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +02.7 95 56.50 2736 3324 66325 10423 100.0 1.096 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +03.6 96 57.00 2757 3375 68217 10466 100.0 1.083 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.5 97 57.50 2778 3427 70166 10509 100.0 1.070 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 93 55.00 2759 3381 72600 9928 100.0 1.063 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 93 55.00 2541 2867 50333 10578 98.5 1.235 H4831 Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 61.464 grain H2O = 3.991 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4831 SC Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.862% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -08.6 93 53.00 2284 2316 39002 9365 89.3 1.402 -07.8 93 53.50 2307 2364 40116 9480 89.9 1.383 -06.9 94 54.00 2330 2411 41263 9593 90.4 1.365 -06.0 95 54.50 2353 2460 42449 9705 90.9 1.347 -05.2 96 55.00 2377 2509 43670 9814 91.4 1.329 -04.3 97 55.50 2400 2558 44930 9923 91.9 1.311 -03.4 98 56.00 2424 2609 46231 10029 92.3 1.294 -02.6 99 56.50 2447 2660 47573 10134 92.8 1.277 -01.7 100 57.00 2471 2711 48959 10236 93.2 1.260 -00.9 100 57.50 2494 2763 50390 10337 93.7 1.243 +00.0 101 58.00 2518 2816 51866 10435 94.1 1.227 ! Near Maximum ! +00.9 102 58.50 2542 2869 53394 10531 94.5 1.211 ! Near Maximum ! +01.7 103 59.00 2566 2923 54973 10624 94.9 1.195 ! Near Maximum ! +02.6 104 59.50 2589 2978 56603 10716 95.3 1.179 ! Near Maximum ! +03.4 105 60.00 2613 3033 58289 10804 95.6 1.163 ! Near Maximum ! +04.3 106 60.50 2637 3088 60033 10890 96.0 1.148 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 101 58.00 2659 3140 62366 10631 98.8 1.134 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 101 58.00 2342 2435 42534 9746 85.8 1.344 I have measured my case capacity, I'm using P-FL sized Norma brass, so the powder compression figures given above are pretty spot on. I expect to get around 50-75 fps at least less than you due to my shorter barrel. I think the H4831 load will end up too compressed but I'm surprised to see how close the H4350 runs to the R17. Does anyone have any experience of H4350 with 200 grain Accubonds in the 30.06? | |||
|
One of Us |
Along the same lines some more info for you: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...php/topics/5777129/1 Make sure that RE-17 isn't temp sensitive if you plan to use it in 26 deg C temps  | |||
|
One of Us |
So I guess what could be said is that the load books are giving data for any rifle in 30-06 which would mean a pressure <60,000 psi while in a modern rifle pressures could be run up to 65,000 psi with prudence ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks mate, good info on that link.
This is the reason I like the Hogdon/ADI powders. I'm slightly gutted actually as having bought the 180 grain Partitions I've worked out that the Accubonds actually seem to shoot flatter at nearly all ranges. Can't wait to test them actually. I may be bringing three different loads to try, Boggy will shit!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Now, I'm glad you put it like that. I've been bouncing the idea of pressure around in my head for a while, as a direct result of reading all the threads on strain gauges, CHE, PRE, case observation, etc. I don't have access to a strain gauge system but do have a chronograph, measuring instruments and quickload. I suppose in the first instance I agree with the camp that says that the idea of the absolute pressure for a given load is in itself almost meaningless. This is not to say that pressure is a meaningless quantity, far from it as it drives the process of internal ballistic entirely, that is to say that the velocity of the bullet is directly proportional to the force generated by the pressure of gas behind it and the length of time for which that pressure acts upon it. From the perspective of reloading I am of the opinion that the only relevance pressure has to the factors we are actually interested in (I would say that these may be velocity, accuracy, case life, action stress and recoil or noise targets) is when a threshold is exceeded. For example I will define as desirable two things from a load in terms of"pressure"; that it be high enough that the case fully obturate and not soot up my chamber at one end and low enough not to loosen the primer pockets, cause casehead separation within a just a few firing or lock up the bolt. The reason for this slightly lengthy preamble is that I am not sure whether the pressures given by quickload have any real bearing on what is going on in my rifle. In some cases the loads seem to match up very well, after 9 months of experimentation I have taken about all the user input-able measurements I can like case volume, barrel cross sectional area, fiddled with the weighting factor in short almost everything except trying to measure my own powder's burn-rate. To give a few examples: Load 1. 30.06 150 grain BTSP, Norma brass, CCI 200LR primers, 51.3gr H4895, 3.180 OAL. 22" 1-11 barrel. This load is 0.3 grains above the book max and gives the impression of being a warm but not crazy load with flat looking primers but no extraction problems and tight primer pockets after at least 4 firings. This load in Privi Partizan brass, which has a slightly lower internal capacity will lock the bolt up pretty solid. Book MV is given as around 2950 at max of 51gr, Measured MV is 2870. The QL estimate for this load however is: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 150, Speer BTSP 2022 Useable Case Capaci: 64.629 grain H2O = 4.196 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.180 inch = 80.77 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4895 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.975% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -09.7 80 46.30 2496 2075 34670 8452 97.1 1.308 -08.8 81 46.80 2520 2115 35634 8540 97.5 1.294 -07.8 82 47.30 2544 2156 36623 8626 97.8 1.281 -06.8 83 47.80 2568 2197 37639 8710 98.0 1.266 -05.8 84 48.30 2592 2238 38681 8791 98.3 1.250 -04.9 85 48.80 2616 2279 39751 8870 98.6 1.235 -03.9 86 49.30 2639 2320 40851 8946 98.8 1.219 -02.9 86 49.80 2663 2362 41976 9020 99.0 1.204 -01.9 87 50.30 2686 2404 43137 9090 99.2 1.189 -01.0 88 50.80 2710 2446 44323 9159 99.3 1.174 +00.0 89 51.30 2733 2488 45535 9224 99.5 1.160 +01.0 90 51.80 2757 2531 46775 9286 99.6 1.146 +01.9 91 52.30 2780 2574 48042 9346 99.7 1.132 +02.9 92 52.80 2803 2616 49341 9402 99.8 1.118 +03.9 92 53.30 2826 2659 50674 9455 99.9 1.105 +04.9 93 53.80 2849 2703 52041 9506 100.0 1.092 ! Near Maximum ! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 89 51.30 2841 2689 53600 8948 100.0 1.082 ! Near Maximum ! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 89 51.30 2582 2220 37650 9090 95.1 1.262 You can see according to this my 51.3 grain load ought to be travelling at ~2730 and be around 10Kpsi below the CIP limit for the cartridge. I think it was clear from the above that this load is nothing like 25% below max and is a developing a full 150 fps more than QL predicts. No problem, I said to myself, look at the burn rate variation part, if the powder I'm using is ten percent faster than the lot the QL designers tested ( I gather +-10 variation in powder burn rate is not unheard of) the velocity and subsequently pressure look much more believable at 2840 fps and 54Kspi. What I've started experimenting with doing is upping the powder charge I enter on QL until I get the velocity I'm seeing on the chronograph. In this case I both did that and tried the same with the QL data on ADI 2206H ( which is the same powder but sold in Australia by the makers under their own name) and got the following. Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 150, Speer BTSP 2022 Useable Case Capaci: 64.629 grain H2O = 4.196 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.180 inch = 80.77 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4895 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.921% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms +00.0 94 54.30 2871 2746 53445 9553 100.0 1.079 ! Near Maximum ! Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 150, Speer BTSP 2022 Useable Case Capaci: 64.629 grain H2O = 4.196 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.180 inch = 80.77 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : ADI AR 2206H Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.934% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms +00.0 90 53.50 2869 2742 57423 9323 99.6 1.048 ! Near Maximum ! The two powder profiles differ by more factors than just the burn rate and it can be seen that they achieve the same velocity but with a 5% difference in pressure. Since more powder blows the groups and gives me pressure signs I choose to take the worst case scenario and say that the load is about a 57Kpsi and further that 57Kpsi is the max that the brass can take in my rifle. This is a Tikka M690 so from a strength point of view, it is a modern rifle. Load 2. Hornady 180gr BTSP Interlock, Norma brass, CCI200 LR, 60.0gr H4831, 3.250 OAL. Book max but gives every impression of being a relatively low pressure load, soot extends further down the neck than with the above load. The primers are more rounded than the above and extraction is as slick as anything. Book MV is given as 2700 fps, measured MV is 2580 fps ( with single figure S.D. mind you) and the QL prediction is: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 180, Hornady BTSP 3072 Useable Case Capaci: 63.268 grain H2O = 4.108 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch = 82.55 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4831 SC Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.833% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -02.5 99 58.50 2542 2582 45939 10144 90.7 1.240 -01.7 100 59.00 2566 2631 47239 10251 91.1 1.224 -00.8 101 59.50 2590 2681 48579 10356 91.6 1.208 +00.0 102 60.00 2614 2732 49965 10459 92.1 1.193 As can be seen we are getting closer, both in terms of predicted velocity and impression of pressure. Load 3. Hornady 180gr BTSP Interlock, Norma brass, CCI200 LR, various charges of H4350, 3.250 OAL. On discovering that the load above was a good 150 fps below book MV, though notice this is consistent with the difference between the book and measured MV of the Speer 150 grain load above) and 250fps less than people on the net seem to be able to achieve, I decided to experiment with H4350. The book max charge of 57.5 gave me sticky extraction, top-hatted primers, extractor and ejector marks, clocking up 2750fps in the process. Backing off a grain resulted in no pressure signs but a drop of MV to 2650 fps, almost not enough to bother with over the very accurate and consistent H4831 load. This is against a book MV of 2800fps for the 57.5 load. QL came up with: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 180, Hornady BTSP 3072 Useable Case Capaci: 63.268 grain H2O = 4.108 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch = 82.55 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4350 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.869% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -03.5 96 55.50 2655 2817 49623 10591 98.0 1.194 -02.6 97 56.00 2679 2869 51043 10671 98.2 1.178 ! Near Maximum ! -01.7 97 56.50 2703 2920 52507 10749 98.5 1.163 ! Near Maximum ! -00.9 98 57.00 2727 2972 54016 10823 98.7 1.149 ! Near Maximum ! +00.0 99 57.50 2751 3025 55574 10894 98.9 1.134 ! Near Maximum ! Note that whilst the velocity prediction is almost spot on the pressure indicated, at ~56Kpsi, is lower than that of the 150 grain H4895 load above! Also according to the program it should take two grains to increase velocity by 100 fps, not the one grain I found. In summary then I don't know where the safe pressure limit for my rifle is in terms of pressure, it seems to vary according to the load and even the is a lot lower than the 60Kpsi level talked about here, much less the 65 Kpsi that I don't doubt modern rifle action steel can easily take. Here is the QL take on the RL17 200 grain accubond load in your rifle: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 57.626 grain H2O = 3.742 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.365 inch = 85.47 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -05.5 93 52.00 2662 3148 58534 8784 100.0 1.219 ! Near Maximum ! -04.5 94 52.50 2685 3201 60299 8822 100.0 1.204 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -03.6 95 53.00 2707 3254 62120 8859 100.0 1.188 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -02.7 96 53.50 2729 3307 63999 8896 100.0 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -01.8 97 54.00 2751 3361 65937 8932 100.0 1.159 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! -00.9 98 54.50 2773 3415 67937 8968 100.0 1.144 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 99 55.00 2795 3469 70005 9003 100.0 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! And here it is in mine: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 61.466 grain H2O = 3.991 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 560.0 mm Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -07.3 86 51.00 2500 2776 48756 9863 99.8 1.259 -06.4 87 51.50 2522 2826 50135 9922 99.9 1.243 -05.5 87 52.00 2544 2875 51553 9978 100.0 1.227 ! Near Maximum ! -04.5 88 52.50 2566 2924 53014 10030 100.0 1.212 ! Near Maximum ! -03.6 89 53.00 2588 2974 54515 10078 100.0 1.197 ! Near Maximum ! -02.7 90 53.50 2609 3024 56060 10125 100.0 1.182 ! Near Maximum ! -01.8 91 54.00 2631 3074 57648 10172 100.0 1.167 ! Near Maximum ! -00.9 92 54.50 2652 3124 59283 10218 100.0 1.153 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 93 55.00 2674 3174 60966 10263 100.0 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! IT would be interesting when I do the work up to see how my data matches up with yours. If we have everything correctly, you rifle has a chamber that allows it support the brass much better than mine as you can run loads that are on average around 5Kpsi higher than mine. This should manifest in the velocity figures also but I am inclined to suspect that I will top out with less velocity than you. If people were willing to provide the measured data it might be interesting to have a thread comparing the calculated and actual pressures and velocities for different rifles and loads. It would need to be people with a lightly obsessive scientific bent, but I think only those guys would have gotten to the end of this post in the first place! | |||
|
| One of Us |
That perspective can be safe but it CAN also get you into trouble real quick of a very serious nature. Quickload is nice but don't bet your shorts on a guesstimation of pressure. Note that there is usually a 2 - 4 gr area of "near maximum" with most loads mentioned. That is a pretty large fudge factor and is telling you that what is maximum and what isn't is only a guess. I do, in fact, measure pressures with an Oehler M43 PBL. In a new M70 with 24" barrel and another test rifle with a minimum spec test barrel in 30-06 I can advise the following velocities and MAPs in relation to what you seek; Winchester factory 150 gr ST; 2853 fps, 53,300 psi Federal 150 FMJ; 2929 fps, 53,600 psi Federal 150 PS; 2952 fps, 53,600 psi Hornady 165 BTSP w/59.5 gr AA4350, WW cases with WLR primers; 2839 fps, 58,300 psi Federal 180 PS; 2724 fps, 51,100 Hornady 180 SPBT w/56 gr AA4350, ww cases w/WLR primers; 2690 fps. 57,500 psi Hornady SPBT w/56 gr IMR4350, WW cases, w/WLR primers; 2757 fps, 60,000 psi Hornady 190 gr SPBT (my elk load) w/60 gr H4831SC, WW cases w/WLR primers; 2671 fps, 63,000 psi Note; my previous elk load with the 190 Hornady SPBT developed under your stated suppositions ran 2733 fps but at 64,700 psi with the peak psi running 65,400 psi. It worked well in cold elk hunting conditions but when tested in hot weather there was hard bolt lift. I developed that load prior to obtaining the M43 and subsequently backed the load off as I found the reason for the hard bolt lift. As the velocity in the hotter weather was about 90 fps higher I can imagine the psi was the problem. BTW, since backing off on the load a couple elk haven't noticed much difference. Larry Gibson | |||
|
| One of Us |
One of the things that may make a difference in my rifle is that it must have been reamed with a new reamer and the chamber is large. This is manifested in the expansion at the pressure ring  It also has a lot of clearance around the neck at .0085". The headspace on new cases is typically .0115", which is more than recommended but who cares the way it shoots! So large chamber If you are going to load the 200 gr Accubonds, sort by bearing length. They have the most variation between boxes I have seen     But I guess what I got out of your many examples of Quickload is this; velocity may be a better gauge of pressure than Quickload ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thank you for your detailed reply Larry, it's exactly the sort of thing I was after. In relation to your points above I am doing this exactly to get an idea of the limitations of Quickload and have erred on the side of caution with regard to sticking by the maximums given in load manuals, looking to another powder when velocity wasn't up to expectations. It was the time I didn't and used bad load data that someone had "experimentally derived" from the internet that taught me that lesson. I don't use QL as a way of setting load targets, rather a simple tool for playing the "what if?" game and for trying things out without having to buy the components. On the other hand the more data I feed into it and the more I compare it to real-life data the more useful it becomes,within it's limitations. For grins I ran the data you gave to see what I could come up with. I had to make a lot of assumptions ( your OAL, case H2O capacity to overflow, throat configuration, bore cross sectional area) but using the rough method of matching velocity rather than powder charge an interesting patterns has emerged.
QL predicts 6Kpsi under for same velocity In other words it appears that there is a fairly consistent "offset value" that can be determined by shooting and chronographing. This then aids future load development. I will apply your data to mine and see if what I think from QL is a load running at 55Kpsi is actually running at 61Kpsi, for example. Your barrel and receiver will have different mechanical properties than mine and so the precise value of the offset may not even remotely apply but through extrapolation I might be able to come up with an idea of the figure. The more load data I can crunch the better. Best, Amir | |||
|
One of Us |
It seems to me that RL-17 might be a little fast with the 200 gr bullets. If your pressure is peaking out before reaching full case capicity. RL-19 might be a better choice for heavy bullets even though I have not tried it. I feel you need to have a powder that fills the case but stays within normal pressure ranges, 65000 max. I've shoot 200 gr bullets with 60 gr old H4831 for years in an old Rem 725 with no problems and good case life. But I don't think you'll find that load in any book. It works in my rifle. Nosler recommends RL-19 with 200 gr bullets and NO listing for RL-17 except with lighter bullets. Shorter barrels may get better use from RL-17 but longer barrels might do better with RL-19. Aaron "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. To front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived"- Thoreau | |||
|
| One of Us |
I suspect my chamber is also on the large side, I have the same Tikka as Kraky on 24 hour campfire I think, and the headspace is also a little loose. My case water capacity is also a bit higher than yours at 71.8vs 69 grains H2O but this could be due to fact that I'm using Norma and you're using Nosler Custom. It will be interesting to compare results. Thanks for the tip on sorting by bearing length, it's new to me but I have the widget in your phoyo and will get on to it. What do I do once I've sorted them? Do I throw away the ones that differ by more than two Standard Deviations or do I load them in "order"? I'll tell you what there's an irony here Woods, all the Quickload number crunching have made me think that the old fashioned working up and stopping when you get pressure signs on the brass is still the best way to go. I just hope I can learn enough to get start and end point ideas from the software in cases where there is a paucity of load data. Thank you again for your help, this site and the knowledge of it's contributors is an invaluable resource. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This has actually been a very useful exchange Larry. Running my load data through it appears that if the threshold pressure of plastic brass deformation is around the 62Kpsi figure, as it appears to be for my Norma brass, then my loads are being predicted at around 6-7Kpsi under the proper pressure, when reading the correct velocity. This makes perfect sense as I previously to looking at your data had come to the conclusion that the pressure threshold for plastic deformation in my brass was, as predicted by QL only mind, around 55-56Kpsi not the SAAMI spec given as 60Kpsi. I'm not sure why it is the case that for the velocity prediction to be correct the pressure reads low, something to ask the program designer I think. From your data, and looking at M98's excellent thread on pressure testing loads in his 30.06, it appears that whilst my absolute value of pressure was significantly out, it appeared to be out by a fairly consistent value, almost an "offset". Very interesting and thank you for your post. If I may beg the indulgence of a favour Larry, might I trouble you for the OAL of the above loads and an idea of the over-flow water capacity of your fired cases to run through more precisely please? Please feel free to critique any and all of my ramblings here gentlemen, I feel there is still much to be learned! Best, | |||
|
| one of us |
i have pressure tested R17 in the 06 with 180 and 200 gn noslers, with 180 gn partitions i get 2900 and with the 200 gn noslers i get 2700, i really belive that R17 is the powder to go to if it delivers good accuracey in your 06 Sorry i cant post the pressure data, but the guy who posted the data for me is not responding to his PM AND E MAILS, and no one else seems to know how to post the data Daniel | |||
|
| One of Us |
If I can help I will gladly post them for you. I'll pm you my email, I take it the file's are PDFs? Amir | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've been thinking about this Woods, I think I agree with conventional powders but then reloder 17, Superperformance must be exceptions to that rule? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Interesting pressure data on Reloder 17 and 180grain and 200 grain Nosler Partitions coming up chaps. Thanks to Daniel, aka M98, for making his data available like this. http://www.gh.hostoi.com/Nosler180R17.pdf http://www.gh.hostoi.com/Nosler200R17.pdf | |||
|
| one of us |
Carolinaman, Like you I have shot 60 grs. of 4831 for about the last 60 plus years with both the 180 then later on the 200 gr. Noslers and woodlieghs and how they do work on about anything form duiker to Cape buffalo, although not my favorite for buffalo, even though they seem to kill as well as anything else, but it doesn't give me the peace of mind that a 400 gr. 40 caliber at 2400 FPS gives me... My 4831 is a 150 lb. Stainless steel canister with a thermos type top encased in a heavy wood crate marked US Army 4350 Data powder (4831 Surplus)...I still have about 40 lbs. left in it. Its the stuff that Jack O'Connor stuff 62 grs in his 270..It gives me a bout 100 FPS more velocity than either H or IMR-4831 and less pressure, but in some cases it is very compact and pushes bullets out..I use thin WW and it works pretty well and gets me 3200 plus FPS in a .270 with a 22" barrel just like it did Jack C. It also works great in my 300 H&H. and 30-06. but lately in an effort to save the powder for the .270 and 300 H&H, I have been using RL22, Rl-19 and working on H414. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
55 gr results 2703 fps lines up exactly with my results. 61,900 for pressure is just fine with me, if it is that high. Looks like the powder manufacturer data and quickload are not accrurate. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Very interesting and timely data from Daniel indeed. I would be interested in the water capacity of Daniel's fired cases as although the QL calc indicates excessive pressure and velocity for your case capacity if Daniel's chamber is the size of mine the calc is actually pretty close: Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler PART SP 35626 Useable Case Capaci: 62.060 grain H2O = 4.029 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.327 inch = 84.50 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.909% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms +00.0 92 55.00 2711 3263 59787 9277 100.0 1.208 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! To within a few fps on the velocity and 3.5% on pressure. Corrected for my OAL and barrel length, I am expecting : Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI) Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618 Useable Case Capaci: 61.464 grain H2O = 3.991 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0.909% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -09.1 84 50.00 2455 2676 46111 9758 99.6 1.290 -08.2 85 50.50 2477 2725 47415 9825 99.7 1.273 -07.3 86 51.00 2499 2774 48757 9889 99.8 1.257 -06.4 87 51.50 2521 2823 50136 9948 99.9 1.241 -05.5 87 52.00 2543 2872 51555 10004 100.0 1.226 ! Near Maximum ! -04.5 88 52.50 2565 2921 53015 10057 100.0 1.210 ! Near Maximum ! -03.6 89 53.00 2587 2971 54516 10106 100.0 1.195 ! Near Maximum ! -02.7 90 53.50 2608 3021 56061 10153 100.0 1.180 ! Near Maximum ! -01.8 91 54.00 2630 3071 57646 10199 100.0 1.166 ! Near Maximum ! -00.9 92 54.50 2651 3121 59285 10245 100.0 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 93 55.00 2672 3172 60970 10291 100.0 1.137 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.9 93 55.50 2694 3222 62703 10335 100.0 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +01.8 94 56.00 2715 3273 64487 10380 100.0 1.109 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +02.7 95 56.50 2736 3324 66325 10423 100.0 1.096 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +03.6 96 57.00 2757 3375 68217 10466 100.0 1.083 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.5 97 57.50 2778 3427 70166 10509 100.0 1.070 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! I'll start at 51 grains I think and work up to pressure signs, ~2650fps on the chronograph or 55 grains, whatever happens first. If there is anything to QL as a predictive my rifle/brass combo should give me pressure signs at around ~53.5 grains of powder, this taking into account the ~6Kpsi "offset" theory of plastic brass deformation happening at around 62Kpsi. | |||
|
| one of us |
A I only use one brand of brass in my 06 ...LAPUA ....with lapua brass you will not get pressure signs until you are over 70,000 psi i have done tests with this brass, where i have reloaded the same case over and over until i wore it out...... i repeated this experiment several times and i got between 50-55 reloads out of the case, and that was useing full power loads | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ray, It looks like I am going to have to break down and try some of the newer powders for my 06's, 270's and a 25-06. My keg of the old 4831 is about gone. I bought some of the new H4831 to start with haven't tried it yet. Based on loading data I am seeing it seems to be a little faster then the old stuff. Also want to try some of the new RL powders that are being discussed here. Got a couple of the new model 70 I want break in. Aaron "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. To front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived"- Thoreau | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ghubert, Have you tried any of these loads yet? Sendero300>>>===TerryP | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've loaded the ammo but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet. All going well I hope to get a chance next week. | |||
|
| one of us |
Wow! all these impressive stats that I don't really have the time or desire to read on these posts as I know what most of them say that has been said before and they are good information for sure But the bottom line on this thread is the capabilities of the shooter wear out long before the capabilities of the 30-06.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| one of us |
With a BC of only .300? Color me skeptical. Get that BC up around .470 and get back with us. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Larry, Hi there, sorry to bother you but I've been looking at your strain gauge data and it strikes me that the 180 grain factory load ( the factory loads more generally but with the 180 grain weight you provided homeload data to compare ) gets very good velocity for the pressure compared to your homeloads. Can I ask, have you ever pulled a round and tried to identify the powder? I hate to put you to trouble but can I also ask if you've compared the unfired case capacity to the factory fresh capacity? The last thing that occurred to me is whether the initial fireforming of the brass in factory loads causes the pressure reading to seem lower than it actually should be? I'm grateful for the benefit of you, and the other guys of course, experience. Best, Amir | |||
|
One of Us |
Ghubert Do yuo realise you have created the most read thread on this little cyberspace about your pipe .................. just under 3600 reads! | |||
|
| One of Us |
This may be old news to some but Hodgdon's has posted their new Superformance powder, on some cartridges, on their on line load data. Shows 2840fps with a 180 and low pressure...30-06 loads. I also have some Reloader 17 loaded but I'm waiting to shoot them until I have access to a good chronograph. Sendero300>>>===TerryP | |||
|
| One of Us |
I hope to be able to shoot my batch this week at some point, I have delayed for the same reason as you actually. Could you post a link to the load data please? I've only been able to find this from Hogdon http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/SuperLever.pdf and it doesn't have 30.06 data on it. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's nothing compared to half decent ".223 on deer" thread though.... I suppose the old thutty ought six must still be a popular girl, when are you getting one then?  PS, TerryP has reminded me, can I borrow your Chrono? | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
I didn't think to check there, thanks Terry.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hi gents, a quick update on the R17 load development but an apology in advance as tests were compromised due to time constraints. Finding myself in the position of not having a load or a zero-ed rifle 5 days before going to Russia I lent on a friend to take me down to his patch to give a belated test to the loads I've made as a result of this thread. I tested three of each of the 200 grain Accubond and 180 grain Nosler Partition loads. I was shooting off the bonnet of my car in a famre's field, with the light fading rapidly so there are flyers and I couldn't get velocity readings for most of the Partition loads. due to time constraints only the three top loads in 1 grain increments were tested. 200 grain Accubond, Reloder 17:  From left to right: 53 grains: Mean: 2610 ES: SD: Group size: 2.0" 54 grains: Mean: 2640 ES: SD: Group size: 1.34" 55 grains: Mean: 2695 ES: SD: Group size: 1.28" 180 grain Partition, Reloder 17:  From left to right: 55 grains: Mean: 2690 ES: SD: Group size: 1.31" 56 grains: Mean: N/A ES: SD: Group size: 1.09" 57 grains: Mean: N/A ES: SD: Group size: 1.31" Concerning the 200 grain Accubond the velocities obtained were incredible for my 21.5" barrel. The 53 and 54 grain loads showed no signs of excess pressure, pressure and velocities correlated very well with Quickload ( my lot of powder must have a very similar burn rate to that of the QL data file) and M98's excellent data on the reloading forum. As predicted the 55 grain load produced a hair under 2700 fps and showed extractor marks on the case head, indicating ~ 62 kpsi with my norma brass. Unfortunately the rifle is playing it's old game of shooting tighter as the pressure goes up, hence my thread on how far to back off when seeing pressure signs. Assuming the flyers in the 54 and 55 grain loads are me it seems that the 54 grain load @ an inch and a bit and 2650fps is good enough to take hunting with just a couple of clicks up on the scope. The 180 grain Nosler Partition loads were frustrating and encouraging in equal measure. Unfortunately the light had ran out as far as the chronograph was concerned so velocities were unobtainable for the all but the first shot of the these loads, a single velocity of 2688 was obtained from the first shot of the 55 grain load and an estimate of velocity made from the QL and M98's data. The first thing that was evident was that these were all very low pressure loads. In fact the cases, full length resized for this sort of work, were uniformly sooted on exaction with slightly less visible on the 57 grain load. It seems that my rifle is not behaving exactly like M98's in this case, getting less velocity and apparent pressure signs for the same loading. I was very frustrated by not being able to get velocity readings for this set of loads and will repeat the test when I get back and have more time. I only shot three rounds of each load and in less than ideal conditions but all things considered Reloder 17 seems to indeed be magic in the 30-06 and I shall be taking the 54 grain 200grain Accubond load to Russia. My only reservation is that I'm seeing large ES and SD on the Chrono and also seeing flyers on the target. With tweaking of OAL and charge this may or may not get better but for now I can kill stuff. Any comments, criticisms and instances of outright abuse are welcome as always! Thanks again for all your help also chaps. Best, Amir | |||
|
| One of Us |
European Moose are not hard to kill at all if you put the bullet in the right place Even a 120 grain premium bullet in 6.5 does the job plenty good enough if the hunter does his/her I know many are fans of the Nosler Partition, but I am not one of them. I think there are many better bullets on the market today. I think you will be happy with the 200 grain Accubond Looking forward to your hunting report and maybe hear about it more detailed at the AR hunt next year | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hey Amir, glad to see you are getting there. One thing for sure is that I think you will be pleased with the performance of the 200 gr Accubond on game. Re your ES and SD; I have found that seating depth has a profound effect on reaching a low value there  For this load the progression to a low ES of 8 and a SD of 4 at .060" off and back up again is almost perfectly illustrated. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
AMIR i think the 54 gran load is about as max as you should go....your barrel is shorter then what was on the pressure gun...24 inches Your 2650 is probably equvalent in pressure to a 2700 fps velocity in the pressure gun, but because your getting extractor marks @ 55 gns i would be dropping it down to 53 gns and settle on a vel of 2600 and go hunting Your rifle is not playing tricks on you, it is quite common to get best accuracey at" max pressure"or see accuracey improving as pressure is going up Daniel | |||
|
| one of us |
AMIR it would be intresting to get some LAPUA cases and see if you get extracter marks with 55 gn s of R17 , that may let you know if the Lapua brass is tougher Those norma cases were they new or have they being fired a few times | |||
|
| One of Us |
Brilliant Woods, thank you for the tip. Four days from getting on the plane so no time now but I'll get on to it for the camels next year. Thank you for the encouragement early on too mate, I'm shooting these 200 grain bullets faster than I was able to shoot 180s with this stuff. best, Amir | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks for the help Daniel, the 55 grain load is too hot for my tastes and our goal was ~2650 at the beginning of this endevour. I shall fall back to the 54 grain load and eventually tweak the OAL to see if I can bring the flyer in. The 53 grain group seems a little blown for my tastes though there is a strong possibility it might have been my shooting.
The norma cases had been fired 3 times, after the last firing they were full-length re-sized. I shall try and get a batch of Lapua cases but they are hellishly expensive in the UK, I've got a fair number of these norma cases in my stash and was hoping to use them for a while yet. Best, Amir | |||
|
| one of us |
AMIR Lapua cases are cexpensive, but you soon forget the cost once you start useing them...i promise you that | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Stretching the capabilities of the .30'06
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia