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| One of Us |
its to damn easy ! I posted 2 threads about a compromise load that would shoot reasonably well in both my CZ 557 and Savage 99f, my favorite deer bullet for the .308 is Speer,s 150 grain Hot core. So i started with Winchester Brass Federal 210 primers and RL 15, 1st load was 46.5 grains, The 60 year old savage shot that load into 1.10 inches with a Velocity of 2747. The shorter barreled CZ put three into .538 at 2714 fps. I would be ok with either load for Mule deer, But i had a few rounds on Hand with a half grain more RL 15. and the 47 grain charge scooted the Savage mv up to 2799, and the CZ to 2741. I would really like to get 2800 out of both Rifles , so today i went back out to my secluded spot in the woods, with 47.5 grains of RL 15 under the same bullet. The savage gave me 1.30 witch is just fine with me, and the CZ gave me .78. But Damned if i didn't leave the switch on my Chroney on and run the battery low so no Velocity figures to share. Its almost Certain the Savage is well over 2800 And the CZ probably just short of it. But what a great cartridge. My so called Compromise load is really no compromise at all. The only thing that i am compromising on is that i am still 1.5 grains under MAX , from the Speer Book. But that,s as far as i go with the Savage, so there is my load. If i decide to hunt the CZ i could drop in more powder, and maybe get up near 2900, but why bother. I might just load 200 of these and never need to load .308 deer loads again. would play with other bullet weights in case i want to elk hunt with one of these two. Next i think i will see what i can work up for my pre 64 ,06 with 165s. Then my 300 H&H with 180s. 30 calibers are Still great , call me old fashioned and i am 59 now but what worked 35 years ago still works fine...tj3006 | ||
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As you went along with the story I was thinking like you, that the Savage should be kept mild. But think of the how effective the 300 Savage was at lesser speeds. So you still have TWO quite effective guns with the same load. Many of us have to use a different load for each gun. By the way, I'd love to see age 59 again! Packy | |||
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Packy, I am the Kid at the Oregon Arms collector gun shows. its sort of interesting. not many youings are interested in the classic arms I like. They like ARs. The prices on old lever guns are going down. ...tj3006 | |||
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Yeee Haw . . . I can live with that. Confession time . . . About 10 years ago, I passed up a pair of Mod 88s, one in .308 the other .243, both with 2.5X Weaver scopes. I could have had both for $1200, or perhaps less. DOH!!! | |||
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your close-nuff to where I run my 0-6 for it to not matter either way. stuff is plenty dead when it gets shot, 25 fps one way or the other means nuthin and the bullet usually does a better job on the slightly slower end anyway. | |||
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Personally I would not push the savage hard. I killed a lot of deer with a 99 300. with 165gr Remington's at 2400fps. The 99s are great guns but they are not bolt guns. | |||
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AMEN! NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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P Dog. You are very right, that's why i stopped at 47.5 Grains. The Speer Book gives a MAX charge of 49. I could Bump it up a little for the CZ, but don't think i will, i like hunting withe savage. The Biggest advantage to the CZ is the Trigger. The Savage trigger is quite good, for a lever gun but the CZ trigger would be better if my Buck should be 300 yards out. I will have 50 rounds of this load on hand by the end of the day. Then i will load 20 or 30 in fresh factory Winchester brass for hunting. I have some Burger 155s on hand. I should load a few of those up just to see how the CZ shoots with a target bullet. ...tj3006 | |||
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I like target bullets too. It tells me where I am with a new gun. I have some 175gr SSA factory ammo to check out my Scout with. | |||
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A lot depends on the powder used, pressures vary from one powder to another..Ive found that a max load of WW-748 with give you bolt action velocity without the pressure of some other well thought of powders like RL-15, in my 99s.. A max load of Varget, RL-15 will be fine in new brass but may come in half after a couple of max loads in those powder. You have to play with 99s..I know some guys that shoot a lot of book max loads in them and never a problem..always trim them is a must in that springy action..work up loads for your gun only.. Many 99s and those for the owner who isn't into reloading very deep with lots of experience should just cut every book max load by two grains..With the proper powder he will lose very little top velocity..You should be able to drive a 165 gr. bullet at the same velocity a 30-06 drives a 180 gr. bullet, about 2700 FPS and that ain't bad on anything that walks.. My saddle gun for elk is tJRoberts' old 99 .308 win. I have another in a 99F also...If anyone can tell the difference in elk shot with a .308 r a 30-06 I'll eat my hat as O'Connor used to say. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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ray i saw one of those EG .308s on Guns international going for a crazy high price. there is guy on that site who lists about 30 99s. all at prices i am not willing to pay ! | |||
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I always thought the problem with the 308 is it's not a 30 06... | |||
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You're right. That's the problem with the .308. Good cartridge for limited uses, but it can't - and will never - fill all the niches the '06 is capable of. Some dudes on this thread really need to let their minds absorb that fact before spouting off.  All The Best ... | |||
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i like Both rounds, But any hunt i would not take with a .308 , i probably wouldn't take it with a 06 either. With a 150 grain bullet i prefer the .308. With a 165 and 180s the 06 wins. if i need a 299 i want a magnum... | |||
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Good grief, whatever the 30-06 can do, the 308 can do, except in the mind of those without enough field experience to know it. And yes, the 308 is the most stupid-simple, easiest to-get-shooting round I’ve ever loaded for.  | |||
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I have a LH Winchester Classic in 30 06 in a much slimmer than usual stock. With a low power leupold scope on its 8.5 lbs. Unless inclement weather happens it will again accompany me this fall. it thinks 220s are ice cream. | |||
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What in the world does that have to do with this thread? Seriously... | |||
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I suppose it means the gun will do things with heavy bullets which the 308W doesn't do as well due to powder capacity and action length when a short action is used. | |||
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A Garand is the only 06 I have ever owned and that is due to its history. My 308s have always done all I asked of them. NEVER needed an '06. | |||
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Good points. Both use the same bullets. | |||
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Quite true. The heavier bullet has the potential of deeper penetration. However, the .308 with a lighter but harder bullet, TTSX, for example, can still offer plenty of penetration. Bullet-making technology has advanced quite a lot in recent years. Another option: While the .30-06 case holds more powder, which in turn helps with bullet velocity, all one has to do is to close the distance if using the same bullet in a .308. | |||
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Not quite. In factory hunting ammo, the .308 tops out with 180gn bullets. Factory 30-06 can be had with the 200gn & 220gn bullets, and due to its larger case capacity, can push these heavy bullets faster. The only real parity between the .308 & the .30-06 is found in their respective 'military trim' with 150gn FMJ ball ammo. In that context, the .308/7.62 is simply a more efficient case for producing the same energy and velocity level of the old '06 military (M2) ball ammo. However, once you move to the 'hunting' context - with heavier bullets and higher velocities - the '06 easily leaves the .308 sniveling in its dust. All The Best ... | |||
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For deer hunting, I have a strong preference for the .308, Why you would need a 180 grain bullet to hunt deer , i cant imagine. I Could get 2900 fps from a 150 grain, .308 , i have seen published load data at 3000, The 06 has more power, not by a lot but more. If more power equals a better cartridge, we would all be shooting 50 BMGs ...tj | |||
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You are talking about factory ammo, while I am talking about bullets. I understand that the .30-06 case holds more powder than the .308's, and that the extra powder does help with velocity, but if you reload and use a 220-grain bullet on both cases (.30-06 and .308), the .30-06 powder charge pushes the bullet just a tad further than the same bullet on the .308 case. All you have to do is to close the distance if shooting a .308. That's what I implied on my previous post. https://www.swggun.org/308-vs-30-06/ | |||
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Years ago, on the rifle range, I used to shoot Hornady 130 gr. spire points in my pre-War Model 70 .308 Match Rifle. Low recoil and a very accurate load produced good scores in the rapid fire stages (10 shots standing to sitting in 60 seconds). Just out of curiosity, I decided to take the load hunting in my Winchester 88. I was sitting on a downed log about 25 yards from a harvested soybean field when a six point buck walked past me into a smaller adjacent field and paused for a bite to eat. I shot, and at the shot. the buck rose up on his hind legs and ran across the 80 yards to the timber on the other side of the field. When I found him, a few yards into the woods, both shoulders were broken and the front legs were dangling. How he got that far on his hind legs alone remains a mystery to me. As an officer candidate in 1960, I was issued an M1 Garand, with which I qualified as "Expert" on the rifle range. Later, in Officers' Basic School, I was issued an M14, with which I also qualified as "Expert". As a practical matter, I found little difference in the performance of the .30-'06 and the .308, but as a match shooter, I found the .308 easier to get superior accuracy from. When I shot in my first benchrest match, in Johnstown, New York, in the fall of 1964, I was shooting on a bench next to Brunon Brunowski, the first person to win a benchrest national championship with a .308. Other competitors included Mike Walker, Harvey Donaldson and my friend and mentor, Crawford Hollidge, whose rifle and ammunition I was using. I believe Brunon won that match, too. | |||
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Then way not just use a 30-30. All you have to do is close the distance. A .308 is not a 06 and 06 just as a 06 is not a 300mag. I like my 30-30, I like my 308s, I like my 06's and I like my 300mags. They over lap in many situations but each does things in terms of velocity and bullet weight that that the other can't. | |||
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For domestic L.E. use or Mil use on battle fields, and for National Match-type competitions with traditional service rifles (M1, M1A, et al), the .308/7.62 cartridge shines. For hunting use, the .308 has a place but it's generally over-rated. The .30-06 can do everything the .308 can do, plus more, and it can do the 'more' part much more effectively. If you're only hunting in the lower 48, then it's a wash between the two cartridges. Your average Midwest deer, for example, ain't that hard to kill ... But if you include the Big(ger) Stuff in Alaska and/or Africa, then the old '06 - loaded 'hot-n-heavy' - is the minimum .30-cal cartridge you want to be shooting. All The Best ... | |||
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add me to that list.....My savage 99 (in .308 win) hasn't been fired in many years.....my father bought it in 1962.....and it hasn't fired 50 rounds in all these years.....it's in mint condition and is surprisingly accurate.....but I won't hand load for it.....so it's collecting dust..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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50+ years working in BC and AB wilderness, often solo for 3 mos. no breaks and about 150 rifles during that time, .223 to .458WM. I could NOT agree more with Brad and often carry a .308-12 ga Browning combo gun for every possible use here. | |||
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I love my Rem 7 for hunting whitetails, and you can't get that in a .30-06. I have several .308s and 300 RUMs but only one .30-06. If the .308 Win can't do it, I move up to the 300 RUM. | |||
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My old gundealer and sage advice giver, rightly or wrongly, used to tell me that a .308 would do at 200 what a 30-30 would do at 100. The 06 would do at 200 what the .308 would do at 100; and the 300 mag would do at 200 what the 06 would do at 100. Seemed ok to me, but really have never given it enough thought to prove or disprove. | |||
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vapodog Why won't you hand load for the 99? Seems like a plan if it is used at all. add me to that list.....My savage 99 (in .308 win) hasn't been fired in many years.....my father bought it in 1962.....and it hasn't fired 50 rounds in all these years.....it's in mint condition and is surprisingly accurate.....but I won't hand load for it.....so it's collecting dust..... Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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I also owned a Savage 99 in .308 separately from my father.....I reloaded a box of ammo for it using military brass....it locked up the gun and I had to send it to Savage for repairs....the military brass is much heavier than commercial brass and had the gun been a strong bolt action rifle it would have easily held the round....but the Savage 99 isn't at all strong like a bolt rifle..... I have no doubt that the Savage 99 is worthy of the pressures of the .308 fsmily of cartridges but it won't handle an error....and yes...it was my error. Recently I loaded some bad .308 rounds for my Model 70 bolt rifle that removed the extractor.....I loaded some Barnes bullets in federal cases and used data from Hornady for standard cuo and core bullets....yes....again an error on my part....that shell would have damaged the Savage 99.....we're all human and make mistakes....and good bolt rifles are forgiving of these errors....the Savage lever gun isn't at all that way. My father's gun is a presentation grade rifle and it looks just fine sitting in the gun rack....so it's where it'll stay! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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It's not what happens at 100 or 200 yards that's at issue here....it's what happens at 400 yards. The increment between the .308 Win and the .30-06 is so slight that it's really not worthy of argument.....if you shoot past 400 yards the .300 magnums might be worth a long hard look.....but one must be honest with himself.....he must know that he (the shooter) is fully capable of that range of shooting....and further that his rifle is accurate enough to insure good shot placement. I've badly misjudged distance in the mountains and now use a Leica range finder to correct that problem.....That said, I still don't consider myself worthy of a 500 yard shot at an elk.....and this makes (at least for me) the .300 Magnums of very little advantage over the .308 Winchester.....yes....that are better....but not much! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Considering all the thousands of P dogs I killed out to 500 and some past. Given good conditions 500 yard elk or deer is easy beans. I prefer them much closer. The key is an accurate rifle, range finder, mutable reticle scope a good solid rest I prefer a bi-pod. | |||
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Where I hunt elk, a wounded elk is considered "your elk".....like hunting Africa.....a wounded game animal is "yours"....you want one for the taxidermist?....pay another trophy fee..... I, too, have killed prairie dogs to 500 yards....but a wounded prairie dog didn't cost me $1,000!!! There is a difference..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The difference is a elks kill zone is how many P Dogs high and wide. A wounded P Dog shot on a elk is a dead elk. But each has to know his limit's. | |||
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   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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A 180 grain .30 caliber spitzer bullet with a BC of .445 and a MV of 3000 fps.has a terminal velocity at 500 yards of only 2021 and therefore takes about .6 second to reach its target. How far do you think an elk can move in that amount of time? I once had a fringe eared oryx take a single step at the instant I fired a shot at him with my .300 H&H at only 300 yards. The point of impact was moved by about a foot, so that rather than making a raking shot from the lower rib cage to the off shoulder, the result was a classic gut shot. Fortunately, I was hunting in a desert terrain, and we were able to follow the animal in his headlong flight and recover him. I was shooting from a prone position, with a rock steady hold, and my PH was glassing the animal as I fired. Had that not been the case, I would have thought that I had missed the animal completely, due to his lack of reaction to the shot. I am an experienced target shooter, routinely shooting at ranges up to 600 and even 1000 yards with non-optical sights. 300 yards would have been close range for me in competition, but only against a target which is guaranteed to be stationary. I have killed hundreds of crows at that range with various varmint rifles, but the vital area of a crow is small enough that a shot is either a hit or a miss. I don't ever recall wounding a crow. Wounding an elk. or even worse a dangerous animal like a bear, is an entirely different story. I have never shot at dangerous game at a range of over 50 yards, and after my experience with the oryx, confined my shots at plains game to under 300 yards.  | |||
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