quote:

280 Ackley Improved Alert

A few years back Nosler decided to bring the 280 Ackley Improved into their list of custom brass and rifles. In order to do this they wanted to take the 280 AI to SAAMI and have it standardized.
Part of the process of standardizing the cartridge was for Nosler to see if other manufacturers had worked with it. They found that Remington had been chambering the 280 in their custom shop. Now here is where the alert comes in. Remington’s Custom Shop chose to shorten the headspace on the venerable design by .014″. When Nosler sent drawings to SAAMI they picked up that number as well.
So by a vote of the members of SAAMI the commercial established specifications for the 280 Ackley were changed from the original design. The reason reported for this change is that Remington believed it was necessary in order for factory 280 Remington ammunition to be fireformed safely in an Ackley chamber. Apparently they did not know that Ackley was the single most successful wildcatter of the 20th century. While he was not the first guy to create and “improved” design, he was the first to standardize the idea and create a safe method of fireforming factory ammo in improved chambers.
Ackley’s method was simple, he simply used a headspace gauge .004″ shorter than the factory case. This shorter headspace assured that the cartridge would be held tight between the bolt face and the junction of the neck and shoulder of the chamber during fire forming. Ackley’s method worked fine for more than 50 years before these alterations to his design were made.
Bottom line for anyone who now works with the 280 Ackley Improved you must decide which version of the chamber you will use; the SAAMI or the Ackley; you cannot safely use the Nosler brass in a traditional Ackley chamber, although it would still be safe to fire form factory ammo in a SAAMI/Nosler chamber.

quote:

Why wouldn't they put a warning on the box?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
vapo I have no argument with that but they have been chambering the 280 Ackley for 40 years and there have to be a lot of guns out there with the real Ackley chamber.

quote:

From the reamer/headspace gage maker's point of view, SAAMI standardization of the 280 Ackley Improved has created problems. Mostly, it's a matter of making sure folks are informed about the change, proper fireforming--if they want to go this route--and which ammo to use in which chamber.

Ackley's intent, with rimless, shouldered cases, was to headspace the improved chamber so that the un-improved parent cartridge could be loaded and safely fired in it--the parent round was held between the breechface and the neck/ shoulder junction of the improved chamber. He advised that the breech-face-to-neck/shoulder junction in improved chambers be held some.004" to .006" shorter than in the parent chamber. Traditionally we, and other reamer makers, have done this, grinding reamers with a MINIMAL RADIUS at the N/S junction for more positive headspacing during fireforming.

Nosler/SAAMI shortened the traditional 280 AI headspace another .014". Additionally, the radius at the N/S junction was specified at .060" +.025". This was likely done because it's very difficult to form 40-degree shoulders with small radii--they're supplying fully formed ammunition, remember.

What does this mean for the owner of a 280 AI?

First, if you have one headspaced the traditional way, don't buy Nosler ammo unless you want to see evidence of excess headspace and risk case separation--its shoulder location guarantees at least .014" excessive headspace. When you need new cases, fireform them from 280 Remington brass.

Second, if you have a SAAMI-spec chamber, you can buy Nosler ammo OR fireform 280 Remington. The N/S junction on the SAAMI chamber IS .014" closer to the breech face, but the .060" radius at this points provides a little more room to accomodate 280 Rem ammo. You may feel a little resistance as you turn down the bolt handle, but it will go and the case will be held securely during fireforming.

Finally, re-loading. Don't use dies made to the old spec to re-size cases fired in SAAMI-spec chambers. The few re-size dies I checked that were made to the "old" spec would not reach the shoulder of a case fired in the SAAMI chamber.

You CAN use SAAMI-spec dies to re-size cases fired in old-spec chambers, but be sure to set the die so it barely touches the shoulder of the fired case. DO NOT set the die so it bumps the shellholder when the ram is up--you'll introduce excess headspace or crush the case.

There are different versions of the 280 AI out there, so this commentary doesn't apply to everyone. If anyone has questions about his specific rifle, I'm willing to try to answer them.

Dave Manson
1-810-953-0732

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Woods:

I find this very interesting and necessary information. While I don't shoot the 280/AI, one never knows. I'll use your information in a discussion that will be upcomming on the 6.5-06 and the 6.5-06 A-Square.

Regards

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Woods:

I find this very interesting and necessary information. While I don't shoot the 280/AI, one never knows. I'll use your information in a discussion that will be upcomming on the 6.5-06 and the 6.5-06 A-Square.

Regards

Jerry

Just goes to show that the ones with the stroke like Nosler or Remington get a vote and 100's of gunsmiths and gun owners who have done something different for 50 years don't mean squat! If they decide to standardize with SAAMI the 6.5-06 then they may create a problem for you too. Hope not.

BTW here are some pics of what that headspace will do to primers



Now I take the blame because I should have measured the headspace on those Nosler 280AI cases before I fired them and connected the dots to the known measurements on previously fired cases in my gun. My biggest complaint is that Nosler sold those 280AI cases without a heads up. A warning like

"Not for use in older standard 280AI chambers. For use in SAAMI dimensioned 280AI chambers only."

Aut vincere aut mori

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

Uh, the 6.5-06 HAS been standardized.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
Nosler 280AI brass in Nosler manual #6 is SAAMI spec.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=980745

Nosler is the only one making 280AI brass and they chamber rifles for that brass.

Now as to the article in gun talk if anyone would look at the cases that are in Nolser manual #5 and #6 they are different. the one that gun talks call the SAAMI spec matches what in Nolser manual #5.

My 280AI was cut to match Nolser brass which matches what in Nosler manual #6 and my gunsmith used a Manson reamer.

I was just trying to point out which is which and since Nosler is the source of the two different 280AI cases.

To me what doesn't Woods address whats in the two manuals.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...I take the blame because I should have measured the headspace on those Nosler 280AI cases before I fired them ...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...I take the blame because I should have measured the headspace on those Nosler 280AI cases before I fired them ...

Hey Woods, Are you saying you just loaded them up and began shooting "without" Fire Forming them first?

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
Maybe the new talk around the campfire will be the relative merits of the .280 Nosler Improved versus the .280 Ackley Improved

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
these were new 280AI cases. ...you can just load them up and shoot them and get excellent results. The first load was the fire forming. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
these were new 280AI cases. ...you can just load them up and shoot them and get excellent results. The first load was the fire forming. ...

Then I do not understand the Point of the thread. Now you are saying you can Load them, shoot them and get excellent results. Where before, it appeared you were issuing some "WARNING" about the Cases having a WRONG Dimension.

So, what is it, do they provide "excellent results" or is there a problem?
-----

If a person is not Fire Forming "new cases", then they will experience unnecessarily short Case Life, regardless of the Caliber/Size.

And of course no "Thingys" are needed.

quote:

HC, these were new 280AI cases. Just like new 30-06 cases or new 350 rem mag cases or any caliber new cases. Yes you can just load them up and shoot them and get excellent results. The first load was the fire forming.

quote:

Are you saying that you can not use new cases while fireforming?

quote:

Think I could hunt with that load?

quote:

Those cases have been fired six times. Should I toss them?

quote:

Why wouldn't they put a warning on the box?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
So you are saying that if you bought a new box of 30-06 cases that had .017" of headspace and (being thingyless as you are) you proceeded to load them without "proper fire forming techniques, then it is your fault?

quote:

See what you are missing here HC is that this brass is sold as 280 Ackley brass and is ready for loading without fireforming.

quote:

Do you go through "proper fireforming" on every new case you shoot?

• Vast majority of 280 Ackley Improved chambers reamed a certain way for 50 years
• Nosler/Remington collusion changed that dimension and shortened headspace by ~.014" when submitting drawings to SAAMI
• Nosler markets new cases labeled 280 Ackley Improved with no warning or advisement

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Not to get into a pissin match here, but I agree with everything Woods has posted here. We continue to get this type of conondrum with wildcats from SAAMI Etc., and in my opinion it creats problems and dosen't make things more SAFE.

Sorry Hot Core, I don't agree as to fireforming all brass, wildcats and modified chambers yes, other than that pissin in the wind, IMO!

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by woods:


Unless you had a strong crimp or more than normal bullet grip.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:


Unless you had a strong crimp or more than normal bullet grip.

So my Redding bushing die to control neck tension does have merit.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
Nosler 280AI brass in Nosler manual #6 is SAAMI spec.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=980745

Nosler is the only one making 280AI brass and they chamber rifles for that brass.

Now as to the article in gun talk if anyone would look at the cases that are in Nolser manual #5 and #6 they are different. the one that gun talks call the SAAMI spec matches what in Nolser manual #5.

My 280AI was cut to match Nolser brass which matches what in Nosler manual #6 and my gunsmith used a Manson reamer.

I was just trying to point out which is which and since Nosler is the source of the two different 280AI cases.

To me what doesn't Woods address whats in the two manuals.

Hey tom

The discrepancies in the Nosler manual drawings are sort of a tangent to the main issue here, IMO. I suppose those Nosler manual variations could have been their driving force to push for official SAAMI specs. See if you can find the drawings and post them and we can discuss.

Still the main issue is that Remington had been producing some guns in their custom shop that were short-shouldered and to accomodate them the specs and Nosler brass was changed. It would only be speculation as to how many guns Remington had produced with the shorter headspace but it could possibly be within the range of a couple of hundred at the most.

Now it would also be speculation as to how many gunsmiths and how many guns had been produced at the old standard spec of -.004" below go gauge on a 280 rem case. That could possible within the range of a couple of hundred gunsmiths and thousands of guns.

So you have one shop and a couple of hundred guns against 100's of smiths and thousands of guns. Does anyone see the inequity here? And think about this, if the SAAMI specs had been drawn to the old standard, the 280 rem cases and the new Nosler 280AI cases would have chambered and shot just fine. Now they have created a disparity and possibly dangerous situation where there was none before.

Just sayin everyone who owns a 280AI should know about this and Nosler should post notification on their 280AI cases.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
So what are you calling "proper fire forming"?

quote:

And say Joe-Blow Reloader gets a box of 30-06 cases from Remington or Winchester or Norma and proceeds to put his favorite load of 54 grs IMR4350 and seat them at 3.340". Then he proceeds to use them for hunting or range shooting or whatever, did he screw up by not using this mystical "proper fire forming" technique you are going to enlighten us with?

quote:

Are new cases not suitable for use until they have been "properly fire formed"? There's a lot of people really F-ing up out there!

quote:

Explain exactly with references how this fire-forming technique will prevent case stretching.

quote:

If it is seating into the lands then you and I are going to have a serious argument and you are going to lose.

quote:

Do you think that might be a little condescending of you to talk about variations in dimensions and dimensional variations to the "Thingy-King"?

quote:

I follow every thousanth of an inch or less on every case because I have adequate equipment. The problem came because I did not connect the dots on the additional headspace on the new Nosler 280AI cases because I did not expect it to be that great. You know what they say about assume.

quote:

It is not about fire forming techniques.

quote:

And if you don't think so then you are the one who is wrong HC.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
So what are you calling "proper fire forming"?

And say Joe-Blow Reloader gets a box of 30-06 cases from Remington or Winchester or Norma and proceeds to put his favorite load of 54 grs IMR4350 and seat them at 3.340". Then he proceeds to use them for hunting or range shooting or whatever, did he screw up by not using this mystical "proper fire forming" technique you are going to enlighten us with?

Are new cases not suitable for use until they have been "properly fire formed"?

There's a lot of people really F-ing up out there!

Explain exactly with references how this fire-forming technique will prevent case stretching. If it is seating into the lands then you and I are going to have a serious argument and you are going to lose. If it is forming a false shoulder then I will say that that will work but call you seriously crazy for doing that much work on each and every case you fire.

Do you think that might be a little condescending of you to talk about variations in dimensions and dimensional variations to the "Thingy-King"? I follow every thousanth of an inch or less on every case because I have adequate equipment. The problem came because I did not connect the dots on the additional headspace on the new Nosler 280AI cases because I did not expect it to be that great. You know what they say about assume.

Look, this is the problem this post is about in as simple a way as I can put it:

• Vast majority of 280 Ackley Improved chambers reamed a certain way for 50 years
• Nosler/Remington collusion changed that dimension and shortened headspace by ~.014" when submitting drawings to SAAMI
• Nosler markets new cases labeled 280 Ackley Improved with no warning or advisement

It is not about fire forming techniques.

And again, I do think that marketing a product marked 280 Ackley Improved to someone with a gun manufactured 10 years ago and also marked 280 Ackley Improved and not expecting them to think it is OK to use is WRONG!

And if you don't think so then you are the one who is wrong HC.

quote:

All fireforming issues aside, this pretty much sums it up.

The average Joe reloader is going to take his new 30-06 brass, run it through a full-length die, then load it up. I would also say that most reloaders are not going to do a special fire-form load on new brass unless they are made aware of a condition the makes such a step necessary.

This very much has the appearance of Nosler moving to cover a Remington mistake - in silence, hoping most would not notice.

Rather than taking issue with each other on fireforming, we should be taking issue with Remington, whose custom shop has not cut a correctly dimensioned .280 AI chamber for a number of recently made rifles, and then with Nosler, for trying to cover Remington's gaffe.