quote:

Originally posted by TAO:
All fireforming issues aside, this pretty much sums it up.

The average Joe reloader is going to take his new 30-06 brass, run it through a full-length die, then load it up. I would also say that most reloaders are not going to do a special fire-form load on new brass unless they are made aware of a condition the makes such a step necessary.

This very much has the appearance of Nosler moving to cover a Remington mistake - in silence, hoping most would not notice.

Rather than taking issue with each other on fireforming, we should be taking issue with Remington, whose custom shop has not cut a correctly dimensioned .280 AI chamber for a number of recently made rifles, and then with Nosler, for trying to cover Remington's gaffe.

Then again...I know how we reloaders and smiths love to debate the semantics....

Not much of a coverup, considering Shooting Times magazine had a full 280AI article, including info on Nosler brass, and also info explaining about the two different AI dimensions...

DM

Minor semantic there, DM...didn't say "cover-up", just "cover". Nosler is covering for Remington's custom shop, but to say a cover-up implies collusion on an issue of questionable legality/ethics. Regardless of intent/lack thereof, there's now an issue out there that can affect the safety of shooters...an issue that really needs to be resolved.

Remington's shop may well have thought itself to be cutting the correct chamber lengths for this cartridge, but later found itself not to be. Nosler may thought that there was a great chance to corner the market on brass for those with the short chambered Remingtons. I doubt we are going to know the truth on that any year soon...But both companies do need to be taken to task for this issue.

If it were with my $0.02 to give to both Nosler and Remington, it would be to stop selling short-chambered .280 AI's, (chamber them cut to correct dimensions), and for Nosler to not sell the shortened brass. Neither company needs to set up a situation where the uninformed loads up to shoot, only to have a tragic accident...yet, this is where they are at.

Because of this, there will be a growing mess associated with the .280 AI in the days and years ahead. Shooting Times covered it, yes, but I'm wondering just how many reloaders actually read that article. How many times will it need to be re-printed to get the information out to all who have (or may potentially one day buy) a rifle chambered in this fine cartridge?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
HC, place me in the rookie camp with Fred Zeglin of Z-Hat and Dave Manson of Manson Reamers whose quotes are noted above and are germane to the topic at hand. ...

Hey Rookie, Sounds like a good solution, while I continue to do things correctly. You and Zeglin, Manson, Shooting Times, and the rest of you all, can learn how to Reload "properly" if you just put a bit of effort into it and quit

I agree that putting Ackley in the cartridge name implies a certain headspace, but I haven't seen any evidence that the headspace difference we are talking about is such a dangerous situation. If there was some indication that shooting the Nosler brass in a chamber that only had .004 setback was somehow dangerous, then I think Nosler should definitely issue a warning or stop selling their brass altogether. But the only problem that seems to occur is some brass stretching. I haven't even heard anyone complaining of gas leaking back, let alone any damage to the chamber or action.

Some stretching of the brass hardly rises to the level of requiring a warning. I agree its best not to shoot the Nosler brass in a .004 chamber unless the bullet is seated into the lands, but I wouldn't call for a warning label without some evidence of a real problem.

All you experts have probably forgotten more than 90% of all shooter/reloaders ever wished they knew in the first place.

My question is "WHAT the HE** happened to custom fitting the dies to the chamber"??

All this jumping up and down doesn't address the problem of what to do to SOLVE this perceived problem.

I don't consider myself ANY kind of gunsmith yet I have NO problems at all FITTING the sizing die to WHATEVER rifle chamber I have in my hot little hands to produce MINIMUM brass resizing for long brass life and maximum accuracy...it doesn't matter if I cut the chamber, some hack gunsmith did it or a custom shop did it.

On ALL my chamber jobs I START with the sizing die I will use...resize and record the measurements of a piece of brass taken from a batch that has been benchrest prepped and use THAT case to set the headspace. I try to use SAAMI minimum spec reamers, but if I rent them I have to deal with variation.

This is MY rifle and if it's a wildcat OR standard caliber I don't give a toss about using factory ammo...and if it IS a standard I make sure to measure as many factory cases as possible then make sure the chamber/sizing die will accomodate...

Even with my "not so perfect Chinese knockoff lathe" I have NO problem keeping the headspace dimensions within ~0.002".

From there a fired, measured, sized and measured case will give me all the information I needed to either do a bit of grinding on the sizer or use Redding Comp shell holders or a bit of inside polishing to produce cases that FIT the CHAMBER...It doesn't matter WHAT BRAND of brass I use...and I haven't had to grind a sizer die in at least 30 years.

I HAVE NEVER come across a chamber that didn't have some discrepancey according to SAAMI specs...and SAAIMI specs are just a "standardization process" to keep components fairly consistent.

AIN'T NOTHING perfect in this shooting world as far as I've ever seen. If you want a "perfect" chamber cut, go find an "perfect" gunsmith with "perfect" equipment, and pay the price of "perfection"...and I haven't found any of those either.

I had a 338-06 done about 40 years ago that has 0.020" headspace and I was loosing cases after 2-3 firings. The gunsmith neglected to tell me he also cut a long throat.

When I talked to him he said "Oh, Yeah...I like the Speer 270 gr bullet and throat for that one...now discontinued for many years... and use 270/280 cases to form your brass...NOTHING about backing off the sizer die or HOW to measure it, accurately.

It took a lot of reading and research until I came across a very good explaination of headspace and what to do about it to make me realize just what the problem was and HOW to solve it. I used a horse-shoe shaped shim on top of the shell holder to size cases for almost 25 years until Redding came out with it's Comp Shell Holders. That rifle still shoots a 5 shot group you can almost cover with a nickle with Horn 225 SP's, but hardly any groups smaller than ~1.5" with any other 338 cal bullet irreguardless of brand.

As far as I can see with this hoohaw a Comp shell holder or a bit of grinding is all that is required to get the cases working right depending on WHICH chamber you happen to have...the rest is just so much "whisky fumes around the campfire" and "I'm smarter than you..." KRAP.

The other side of the story is DON'T BUY Hornady brass if it is out of spec with your chamber...and all that is required to find that out is the proper measuring tools, either home made or store bought.

I don't doubt your tests, Woods, but I've used the old "stuff it up the spout" AND COW method to fireform brass for at least 50 years...it works best with Mauser type claw extracters...on all kinds of wildcats, Ackley, Gibbs, blowing the shoulder forward or not...and also to fireform new brass...because new brass seems to always be on the short side of SAAMI specs, but MOST of the new brass is still WITHIN SAAMI minimum specs because ALL specs have a tolerance range...no one seemed to say anything about that in all this dust up.

It would really be nice to come across more threads that addressing some "problem" that didn't turn into a shoot out and actually solved the problems...on AR...that didn't degenerate into the quote after quote "stuff".

Come on, guys...you people have so much of value to say, quite wasting white space on irrelevant posturing.

LUCK

duckboat the dimension we are talking about is .014" not .004"

FOOBAR the problem is not using dies to size a fired case, it is with the new brass. Unless you can explain how to "custom fit the dies to fit the chamber" and move the shoulder forward on new cases .014" then you have not understood the problem. But the problem is much like your 338-06 scenario where you had a chamber that was cut with too much headspace and was not told. Nosler created the excess headspace where there was none before and is not telling anyone. If I had connected the dots on this beforehand I could have formed a false shoulder or just used 280 rem brass. My bad, I have the "thingy's" to figure it out beforehand (unlike some others around here).

I do know how to fireform loads and just finished creating a false shoulder on 35 Whelen cases for a 30 Gibbs for a crush fit. And I also know how to size a case for minimum to no headspace, these cases were new.

Perhaps if posters are not reading the quotes from Gunsmith Talk and from the owner of Manson Reamers to fully understand then it is becoming a typical AR thread of looking for minutiae to pick apart and further their own agenda. I don't disagree with anything you posted FOOBAR but it doesn't reflect what is going on here.

quote:

duckboat the dimension we are talking about is .014" not .004"

I was referring to the common setback used on wildcat Ackley chambers of .004. My point is that I have yet to see any evidence that shooting the SAAMI spec Nosler brass in a wildcat chamber setback of only .004 is dangerous. Some stretching of the brass doesn't automatically equal a dangerous situation.

You are correct that the dangers are minimal.

There is a strong possibility that the primers will be flattened which in itself is not dangerous. There is also a possibility that the primer may be blown which most of the time will not be a danger. The number of primers I have blown could be counted on one hand and were exclusively in a 264 win mag because of overloading, no permanent damage. A blown primer can cause damage to the firearm and/or get expelled detritus in your eye.

The increased stretching and thinning at the pressure ring can lead to premature case head separations which could also cause damage to the firearm and/or cause some personal harm.

And, before we get off on another tangent, after the first firing you can headspace on the shoulder with minimal to no setback on the shoulder. That will mitigate further thinning at the web but most of the damage is done on the first firing with that much headspace. So we don't need to go into everyone's spiel about zero headspacing on the shoulder and how to set your die, we know about that.

I don't mean to be overly sensitive about things but after starting an informational thread about something every 280AI owner should know and then being called wrong, a rookie and a crybaby (by someone who doesn't own one and has no personal experience), my tolerance is at a low level.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...my tolerance is at a low level.

Hey Rookie, More
-----

Speer #12 – pages 201-208 = 0.013”
El Cheapo 20# paper – 4 sheets = 0.015+”
El Cheapo 24# paper – 3 sheets = 0.013+”
110# paper = 0.010”

When people who NS Cases do their traditional "Bump the Shoulder Back" routine, I'll guess many really do not realize how much they actually move the Shoulder. They talk about "Bumping" a few thousandths, but unless the Annealing is done properly they could be all over the place - aka Variation - which could easily be as much as 0.014" variation.

Of course, proper P-FLRing eliminates that issue. Just like "proper" Fire Forming eliminates the 0.014" concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...my tolerance is at a low level.

Hey Rookie, More
-----

Speer #12 – pages 201-208 = 0.013”
El Cheapo 20# paper – 4 sheets = 0.015+”
El Cheapo 24# paper – 3 sheets = 0.013+”
110# paper = 0.010”

When people who NS Cases do their traditional "Bump the Shoulder Back" routine, I'll guess many really do not realize how much they actually move the Shoulder. They talk about "Bumping" a few thousandths, but unless the Annealing is done properly they could be all over the place - aka Variation - which could easily be as much as 0.014" variation.

Of course, proper P-FLRing eliminates that issue. Just like "proper" Fire Forming eliminates the 0.014" concern.

HC, HC, HC

I'm surprised you show such a basic misunderstanding on so many levels. Perhaps like others have stated your expertise is in name calling and ridiculing and not reloading.

The die manufacturers make their dies so that creating dangerous headspace is not possible. When you adjust the die down to hit the shell holder with dies like a RCBS FL die, you are usually still not far enough down to bump the shoulder. You have to raise the ram and adjust it down further to where the press cams over (in a slight bind) before it will hit the shoulder and PFLR.

Perhaps a picture will help your understanding although I doubt it. First pic is a reading on the shoulder of an old case that I can afford to throw away, before sizing



and after threading the die in until the bottom of the die is in a severe bind against the shell holder, i.e. it is not adjustable to push the shoulder any further back, sized



the die has pushed the shoulder back .0045", you can not make the die push the shoulder any further back without modifying the die or shell holder. This is typical of dies. They do this for a reason, to keep reloaders from creating dangerous headspace.

Often in order to push the shoulder back the shell holder or bottom of the die has to have some taken off before it will push the shoulder back. Remember your useless advice to take a file to one of my shellholders?

So, your statement

quote:

They talk about "Bumping" a few thousandths, but unless the Annealing is done properly they could be all over the place - aka Variation - which could easily be as much as 0.014" variation.

is erroneous (to put it nicely). And annealing, either properly or improperly would have nothing to do with it.

IIRC you have hounded, ridculed and essentially run posters off this board for statements that were more true than your statement above. Think about that.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...Perhaps like others have stated your expertise is in name calling and ridiculing and not reloading.

I know enough to Fire Form Cases - unlike the Rookies.

quote:

When you adjust the die down to hit the shell holder with dies like a RCBS FL die, you are usually still not far enough down to bump the shoulder. You have to raise the ram and adjust it down further to where the press cams over (in a slight bind) before it will hit the shoulder and PFLR.

The first sentence is Truefor new Cases. The second sentence is incorrect, that is not how a proper P-FLR is done at all. For those interested, you can do a "Find" on the Reloading Board and see how to P-FLR.

quote:

Remember your useless advice to take a file to one of my shellholders?

Yes, a real classic!

quote:

So, your statement

quote:

They talk about "Bumping" a few thousandths, but unless the Annealing is done properly they could be all over the place - aka Variation - which could easily be as much as 0.014" variation.

is erroneous (to put it nicely).

One randon example is not what I was talking about. By the time you put in the variations among Dies and Shell Holders, then the "Reality" of what I said is True.

quote:

And annealing, either properly or improperly would have nothing to do with it.

So you believe Annealing has nothing at all to do with "Spring Back" of the Brass. I doubt you thought that through real well. Your has apparently blocked some of your thinking.

quote:

IIRC you have hounded, ridculed and essentially run posters off this board for statements that were more true than your statement above. Think about that.

I'm thinking. If a person's position CAN NOT stand a challenge, then(and feel free to quote me) - "Too Bad!!!"
-----

"Can't we all just get along?!?!?! " - Rodney King

Sorry to interrupt you two's Lovefest, but I tried to post this last night but lost it. The iphone doesn't work well on the site all the time, but runs ballistic programs good

I have a shooting buddy who shoots the precision matches with me all of the time. He sets up his dies to cam over so that the shell chambers easily with no "crush fit" so that he can work the bolt as fast as possible.

He had a crapload of ammo from his last batch loaded and was having case head separation. He took some accurate measurements and was bumping his shoulders and sizing brass to have .010" headspace. The point is that you can't just set your dies up that way and assume you can't over-size your brass. All chambers are different and so are the dies.

Also, work-hardened brass has different amounts of spring back just like HC says. If you set your dies up to size the most work-hardened piece of brass to fit your chamber, you may be over-sizing the rest of your brass that may be in a different state of "anneal". I went through this exact thing with my gunsmith at his shop. The .264 WM he chambered had a tighter, shorter chamber than the last one I had. My die wouldn't size it enough to chamber, so we had to chuck it in the lathe and take a little off a couple of thousandths at a time. At the same time we checked all my brass. Some would chamber when sized and some would not because of the amount of spring back they had from the original size.

What ya think?

Please continue the Love-Inn...

Hey Woods, I really was not trying to hurt your feelings, just messing with you.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Sorry to interrupt you two's Lovefest, but I tried to post this last night but lost it. The iphone doesn't work well on the site all the time, but runs ballistic programs good

Does it have a Rotary Dial?

quote:

I have a shooting buddy who shoots the precision matches with me all of the time. He sets up his dies to cam over so that the shell chambers easily with no "crush fit" so that he can work the bolt as fast as possible.

That is colloquially refered to as Full Length Resizing(aka FLRing) and is what should be done when in Dangerous Game country. Obviously another application in speed shooting (and semi-autos).

quote:

He had a crapload of ammo from his last batch loaded and was having case head separation.

Yes, FLRing creates short Case Life.

quote:

He took some accurate measurements and was bumping his shoulders and sizing brass to have .010" headspace.

Huuummm, sounds like a "Thingy" user.

quote:

The point is that you can't just set your dies up that way and assume you can't over-size your brass. All chambers are different and so are the dies.

You are correct.

quote:

Also, work-hardened brass has different amounts of spring back just like HC says.

The esteAmed Mr. Woods knows that but just hates to admit it.

quote:

If you set your dies up to size the most work-hardened piece of brass to fit your chamber, you may be over-sizing the rest of your brass that may be in a different state of "anneal".

Here's what I think

HC took a good thread about a situation that very few knew about and pretty much ruined it.

I have measured lots of springback in every state of work hardening and the most I have ever documented was .0015" and that was an extreme case. A normal springback would be in the neighborhood of .001".

If you have springback from pushing the shoulder back, the springback would decrease the headspace. IOW you push it down, it springs back up.



rc it's entirely possible your buddy pushed the shoulder back .010" but that would be on the outer range of possibility. The die manufacturers know the go-no-go range of headspace is between .002" and .010" and the idea is to produce a die that will push the shoulder back in that range when camming over.

rc you should take some of your fired cases and your dies and see how far you can push the shoulders back when the die is at the maximum bind in the press. All of my FL dies and Redding Body Dies will not push the shoulders back much at all except for the one die I had to get cut off in order for it to hit the shoulder at all. Almost ruined my press trying to reach the shoulder on that case.

This thread was about a difference in the dimensions between the new SAAMI Nosler/Remington brass and the standard dimensions that had been chambered for 50 years. I don't need a lesson in reloading without facts, personal experiences or pics. Put forth your data and start a thread and I will be glad to discuss it. Saying that reloaders don't know how much they are pushing the shoulder back and when they talk about a few thousands when it really could be .014" is not correct or specific to the conversation.

And again I will remain in the rookie camp with Fred Zeglin and Dave Manson, both of whom have also stated that this created a problem. The other is just out of line.

My feelings aren't hurt, I'm perfectly satisfied with what I have posted and the facts I have given, but I am pissed.

woods,

I'm just sayin' that it's possible.

If you use the common sense "HC" method of sizing (setting the die to give you a crush fit or a tad more for easy bolt closure), you don't have to worry about measuring anything.

Your chamber is your "thingy".

You're not a "rookie" and everybody here knows it, even HC; he's just yanking your chain trying to get you to realize that the "bailing wire and duct tape" method works.

Don't be pissed.

If folks had fire-formed the brass once and used the HC method, there would never be a problem.

This whole thing makes me love the COW method!

I still Luv the both of U.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

If you use the common sense "HC" method of sizing (setting the die to give you a crush fit or a tad more for easy bolt closure), you don't have to worry about measuring anything.

Your chamber is your "thingy".

rc you're still missing the point and you're preaching to choir here about sizing. The reason is that you are talking about sizing of fired cases and this post is about headspace on new cases.

Suppose someone did not have thingy's measure headspace and had just gotten a new to them but 15 year old 280AI chambered by Hart, they bought the Nosler 280AI brass and proceeded to load em up. They would in all probability be shooting with .014" to .017" headspace. That will cause flattened primers and excessive stretch like in the pics on the first page. Could possibly cause a blown primer. Could possibly cause damage to the gun or themselves. All with no warning or advisement.

quote:

If folks had fire-formed the brass once and used the HC method, there would never be a problem.

Again this in not about sizing fired cases. Any potential problems would occur on the firing of the new brass.

Put yourself in my shoes and imagine this: suppose there was no SAAMI standard for the 6.5 Grendel but you are happily going on your way loading and shooting and then you find out that someone has submitted to SAAMI drawings that put and extra .014" of headspace compared to your chamber. Then you buy cases from the manufacturer thinking they are just fine and have flattened primers. Looking for the reason you find out someone has just made your gun and thousands of others not accepted SAAMI standard.

How would you feel? Then have a thingyless poster call you a rookie and a crybaby and tell you that you are doing it all wrong.

Feel better yet? I swear if someone else tells me how to size for a crush fit, fireform, measure or anneal it's going to get ugly. I have already admitted I should have connected the dots but counter that with I would have if there had been some kind of label "USE ONLY IN SAAMI 280 ACKLEY IMPROVED CHAMBERS" or something then I would have.

Please go back and read the thread from the beginning because sizing is not what this is about.

I get it.

With a close to max load, it may be hazardous. I had Nosler brass for my .300 that definitely had excessive headspace when new. I loaded my normal load without fire forming and had very poor accuracy and flattened primers.

Like I said earlier, this just goes to show the importance of fire forming with the Cream of Wheat method.

Upon the first firing, the headspace is gone.

Well, Woods...I DO think I understood the "problem", but as I see it it isn't really a problem unless someone wants to jump up and down and make it a problem. Otherwise it is just everyday variation to deal with.

Once the SAAMI standardization procedure and specifications were established and set then whatever came before doesn't mean squat. If you have a previous to SAAMI chamber it is up to YOU to make the brass fit...NOT Hornady.

Besides anyone dealing with a wildcat should know the dimensions of the rifle chamber they are shooting and how to correct any glitches or differences that might occure due to standardization...maybe a beginner or novice wouldn't know, but any slightly advanced reloader should have learned about headspace and know what to do about it.

As has already been pointed out and what happens in reality...after the first firing the headspace is established on the fired round and a simple measurement with the tools your pictures show will quickly determine any dimensional changes. I have several sets of those nice toys PLUS a drawer full of home made guages I've made from around 1960 until I bought a Stoney set back who knows when.

This thread is a small ant hill getting turned into something a little larger, but maybe your pictures will help some beginners to understand...I keep pushing those excellent guages all the time when people are having problems in the reloading department.

It might have been a good selling point to add a warning to the brass, but they didn't...jumping up and down online doesn't do much good...talk to Hornady if you haven't already.

You keep telling folks they don't get the point...not true...most of them got the point but didn't want to use it...they all had their OWN points and you just missed those points that they understood but didn't really care or saw no point at all.

This poor horse is kicked to death, why try to keep riding it?

LUCK

So I suppose if someone new to the 280 bought a new Nosler rifle in "280 AI" and new Nosler brass in "280 AI" and loaded it with SAAMI spec dies, they might never know the difference. Unless they compare notes with someone who has been shooting the older setup.

Much to do over nothing? or so it seems to me..You have all the specs so buy brass and reload to fireform, Not sure I understand all the gobbly goop, but seems like one could reload either way with standard 280 dies, set the shoulder back or blow it out! ???

But on second thought, I think I'll just stick with the 30-06.

Here is the bottom line; Nosler screwed it up! Rather than simply cutting a chamber at -.004" as Ackley and a multitude of gunsmiths had been doing, and taking the measurement to a datum line from that. I have to admit though, having screwed up, they nonetheless stuck to their guns and stubbornly ploughed straight on.
I hate even chambering a 280 AI any more. I have a 280 AI 40 degree reamer with which I chamber to Nosler specs and a 280 AI 30 degree reammer with which I chamber to Ackley specs.
Of course, Ackley screwed up on his drawing for the 30/06 AI and reamer makers have been blindly making reamers according to this error from the outset. Nosler, showing their level of expertise, managed to incorporate the error into their loading manual. Can't wait until they decide to standardize that one. Regards, Bill.

Man!! Talk about bringing back old memories!! The good old days before HC and rc got banned. I tried to get banned but being a rookie didn't make the grade

Reading back through it, can't say I disagree with a single word I said. Not still pissed though LOL

Just a sample of the way things used to be around here

It's a pretty pathetic way to trade on the name of a man who pioneered the Improved version of so many cartridges now that he has been dead long enough.
IMHO, much of what Nosler has done lately is pretty opportunistic. Did Freedom Arms buy them while I was in Africa the last time?