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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respect 1re·spect noun \ri-ˈspekt\ Definition of RESPECT 1: a relation or reference to a particular thing or situation <remarks having respect to an earlier plan> 2: an act of giving particular attention : consideration 3a : high or special regard : esteem b : the quality or state of being esteemed c plural : expressions of high or special regard or deference <paid our respects> 4: particular, detail <a good plan in some respects> — in respect of chiefly British : with respect to : concerning — in respect to : with respect to : concerning — with respect to : with reference to : in relation to Examples of RESPECT He has earned their respect. The soldier saluted as a sign of respect. Despite our differences, I have enormous respect for him. I have a great respect for his accomplishments. I expect to be treated with respect. Your theory makes sense in one respect. The earth's crust floats over a core of molten rock and some of its parts have a tendency to move with respect to one another. —Mario Salvadori, Why Buildings Stand Up, 1990 Anyway any honor sent through the mail and cashable is about the only kind I got any great respect for … —Flannery O'Connor, The Habit of Being, 1979 Our ragged hero wasn't a model boy in all respects. I am afraid he swore sometimes, and now and then he played tricks upon unsophisticated boys from the country, or gave a wrong direction to honest old gentlemen unused to the city. —Horatio Alger, Ragged Dick, 1868 The Cat only grinned when it saw Alice. It looked good-natured, she thought: still it had VERY long claws and a great many teeth, so she felt that it ought to be treated with respect. —Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 1865 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Well said. I must say IMO, when picking a rifle for my 12 year old this year a .243 was not enough for a general purpose Mule deer rifle. | |||
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.243 is great if the elk is already tied up. If you are going on a real hunt, take a real gun. | |||
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Every time I show up on this site I'm reminded of why I seldom show up on this site. There are a number of great guys who are actually "hunters" here who are regularly mocked by the "kill em any way you can technology freaks" that seem to hang here and pound each other on the back to justify their slob hunting practices. Guys with fat wallets that have all the gear they think makes up for their lack of hunting skills. They brag up all their "long range" kills and never mention the gut shot get-aways cause quite frankly they just don't give a shit! Pathetic! If after 40 or 50 years of humping those hills hunting elk a man can't comprehend the concept of respecting them as a quarry he falls solidly in the category of the latter group and sure as hell don't rate hunting those animals just cause he has the money to do so! I see em up there in the mountains all the time and as I said, they make me wanna puke! I shoot p-dogs and rockchucks at over 600 yards every summer so I understand what it takes to hit small targets at long distance. Varmint hunting is my thing and technology and shooting three to five thousand rounds a year on paper and otherwise teaches a guy a lot on top of USMC training as a teen back in 66. Lotta fun, nothing to it just good equipment and practice. However, in my world there actually is wind and critters moving with imperfect conditions and to be quite frank I was raised to know that hunting means understanding the quarry, reading the wind, learning to stalk, actually "hunting", not just upping the technology ante to be able to play some kinda long range sniper with those magnificent animals with no regards whatsoever as to what it all means when you been raised in a hunting family with a hunting heritage. I pity the poor bastard that can't grasp that concept and I been living on elk meat all of my life. I shot my bull this year with a .358 Winchester in a Savage 99 at about 225 yards, a long shot for me on elk actually. I'd snuck into the midst of the herd and could smell em before I saw em and they didn't have a clue I was there, even with as many elk as I've killed at 62 I was as excited about this one as the first and yes I coulda killed him with a .243 but I'm an ole mountain boy that is backwards enough that I do respect the animals that I hunt for food, to pass on shots that ain't perfect,to live for the hunt and not the kill. The killing of em is damn sure a distant second to the hunting of em and my pity to those that don't get that fact even if they know how a dictionary works. So you just fire away and mock my dumb back woods ass for what I believe cause I care less. If long range sniping of elk was the game I coulda filled the back of 7 or 8 pickup trucks this season alone, big F'ing deal, don't mean nuthin!!! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Another one of those "do it my way" or your wrong. The old BS that my way and my interpitation is RIGHT and any other than MY WAY is wrong is total BS _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Interesting, I started a thread out of total bullcrap and you've posted on it eight times and now you are claiming BS on someone else? Unbleeping believable! | |||
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I have been reading with much interest the debate regarding the 243 vs Elk. I don't live in America, but in Ireland where we have red deer which are the same species as elk. Yes you can kill large game such as elk with small light calibres provided ranges are close or moderate and shot placement is perfect. But why would anyone wish to handicap themselves by using light calibres for large game when there are a good number of more suitable and humane alternatives available, such as the 30-06. Craig Boddington in his book American Hunting Rifles has given the right advice to any serious elk hunter, to use cartridges of adequate calibre, bullet weight and power. His top choice seemed to be in the .338 class of cartridges with 250 grain bullet. I view his thinking as being very sound and sensible, fellow hunters in American would do well to take his advice and leave the .243 for small game. Best of luck. Joe | |||
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0.243" Bullet for Elk? | |||
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Have you noticed that sincE Bodington used the 270 to take a nice bull Elk that he has changed his mind? The 270 dropped his Elk faster than any other cartridge that he had ever used. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I know why you started this thread and I see you totaly missed the point of my post. NOT SURPRISING _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Yes, I remember reading 2 articles by Boddington and if I recall correctly, he was out to prove a point. He killed one elk at 400 yards with a 270/150 partition that took a step or 2 and fell for good. The other was with a 140 accubond and a 270 WSM. I seem to remember him writing that these were the only 2 elk he had killed to date that fell where they were shot or took the fewest steps. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Penetration tests into bone impregnated media, have shown: 100tsx/257rob 3300mv 21" penetration 200NF/.358win 2650mv 14" penetration.......@ 100yd. 25cal had greater travel..35cal had larger wound channel volume. .308win with ordinary 150gn Sierra 2800mv, exhibited penetration & wound channel results somewhere between that of 25cal & .358 cal. | |||
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jwp475 Thanks for your reply. No I was not aware that Boddington shot a bull elk with his 270. I did know that he shot European red deer with it alright and was suitably impressed with its performance. Quoting from his book again American Hunting rifles, the 270 is marginal for elk but on the right side of the margin. I think the point he was trying to put across to the hunting public was that using just adequate cartridges for elk may restrict hunting possibilities, under the many varying conditions such as range and terrain etc. In areas where I hunt here in Ireland the red deer come out to feed on large meadows, the animals are difficult to approach, they have become very wary due to being heavily hunted and therefore ranges may be long. I saw a guy only last season use a 25-06 with 120 grain bullet at over 3000ft/sec from 350 yards hit a large red deer only for it to walk straight into the wood never for it to be seen again. That is why I would tend towards Mr.Boddington's point of view when it comes to the shooting of large game. Best of luck to you. Joe | |||
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At the risk of wasting a little more time on this thread I think I'll point out the obvious. All us old farts know that the longest running debate in hunting camp and bars after the hunt use to be which is a better elk round the .30-06 or the .270?? I'll leave that argument rest as with all the new elk-ger-stomper magnums ya don't hear it much any more but I will say this, the .270 ain't no .243! To Mr. mackey, well reasoned and sensible response. Refreshing. Howdy from Montana. From one ole fart to another, howdy Hot Core. Hows life in the battle zone ? Trax, as to penetration. My .358 load is using a 225 grain Sierra GameKing chrono'd at 2,400ish Fps. What ever the penetration rating, at 225ish yards it went in behind the shoulder of a young 5X5 frying pan bull at .35 cal and exited the far side at about .40 cal. As with most through and through lung shots he stumbled about 50 yards before doing a nose plant. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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I'm sure .243s can and do kill elk, but why take the chance on conditions not being right for the needed shot. I'm certainly not an animal rights activist, but I personally don't want an animal I shoot to suffer for hours before it finally bleeds to death because I didn't use something more appropriate for what I was hunting. Lets turn the tale around a little. I'm pretty sure a .243, under the right conditions, will kill a Cape buffalo, but I'll bet there aren't many hunters willing to pursue them with such. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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Relatively quiet right now. Don't have all the snow to contend with that you all do. Brrrrr!!! Just reading some of the threads where it gets as cold as where you are gives me the shivers. Best of luck to you this Season. Semper Fi! | |||
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Absolutely. | |||
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Mike, don’t worry about it, it looks like it’s going to die on its own pretty soon anyway. | |||
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montdoug Thanks for your comments. If your in Montana, from my point of view over here, that sounds like 'Elk Central' to me ! ! I use a 270 myself amongst others but I do have a preference for the good old 30-06. Best of luck to you Joe | |||
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Ok, now that we've all agreed a 243 is adequate (but far from optimal) for elk with good shot placement within 300 yards or so, what bullet do you all recommend? Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I've killed several elk with a .270 but the .06 was my go to rifle for many a year and many a freezer full of elk. Today my number one elk rifle pick is a redone .300 Win Mag that absolutely drives tacks with the great old Hornady 190 grain Interlock bullet at a chrono'd 3,030ish FPS. As to elk central I guess we are, they abound in this area although the number are dropping since the wolf reintroduction and the continued processing of elk into wolf turds !!! That said my son took a big one a few years back. God bless him he's still in the "big horn" phase of elk hunting and because of his diligence he's become good at it. This bull was locked in rut combat with a slightly smaller bull when my son snuck an arrow between his ribs at a whopping 11 yards . Great memory, masterful hunt, ya couldn't cut the gravy with a chain saw.Tasted like hammered horse crap I shot a fat cow that year..hmmm..I shot a fat cow last year too. In fact we have had additional cow reduction tags in the area I hunt for the last 3 years. The bull I shot this year was the first in a loong time and I Intentionally picked the smallest of the three that were standing together cause I knew he'd be the tastiest. Him I give to my son daughter-in-law and 3 grand-kids cause the boy been working to hard to hunt this year. For the wife and I shot a young cow with trophy ears on her . Shot her out in a barley field next to an alfalfa bar. The youngsters have better teeth so it's better for us old folks to eat that tender cow meat Heh-Heh-Heh_heh. Last year I give the kids a cow, every time the daughter-in-law would use some of it for the first 3 months she'd call and thank me, after a couple years gnawing on that rutting bull that cow ate like candy! I think the sons trophy hunting days been ruined and he don't even know it yet. Heh-Heh-Heh. Us old farts can be treacherous Joe . "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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montdoug That was a nice post, I enjoyed reading it, thanks. With that 300 magnum and 190 gr bullets your ready for practically everything, good elk medicine ! That's some trophy your son arrowed at 11 yards, must be difficult enought to get in so close. I saw a similar photo years ago where that great American bow-man Chuck Adams downed a large bull like your son's. Its really an outstanding achievement to stalk and kill large game with the bow. I am much like yourself now as regards trophies, at one time years ago it was always about the head, the head, the head ! Now its about being out in the environment, the hunt, the stalk, selecting a good beast, meaning young and eatable and the sirloins on the grill ! To me the wolves would be a welcome addition to the outdoors; it will probably make the elk and other game more cautious, alert and wary which means tougher and more satisfying hunting. I'me just reading a delightful book at the moment, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman, by that great American, Theodore Roosevelt, its a wonderful read describing how things were in the Dakota Bad Lands in the late 1800's. He writes about the demise of the bison across American amongst other hunting tales, I'me wondering what is their status now, is there much hunting of bison on properties peripheral with the National Park etc. Best of luck to you. Joe. | |||
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Thanks Joe. He is indeed a hunter and without hijacking the thread I'll just say the story on the hunt that took that bull was most interesting to any hunter. That bull was fighting with another when that one got the slightly smaller bull moving backwards down hill straight to where the arrow was waiting . Took him two days with a pack-board to get him down and out, chunk at a time. Tough as nails but it's a nice mount anyway. As to bison hunting it's a contentious issue around here what with the bunny huggers and what not but there are a limited number of tags drawn each year around the periphery of Yellowstone Park to thin the bison numbers when they leave the park in the winter (absolutely no hunting in the Park, "Ever" and "NO" a .243 ain't enough gun for bison ). I live just a ways north of the Park. Another short but interesting read if you can Google it up is an article written long ago called "The Five Stages Of Hunting", about one older fella's observations of his hunting career. Fits me to a tee. What do ya know? Hijacked thread or not a pleasant conversation about a shared interest . Thanks. P.S. I believe I read that book years back. Check out "Hell I Was There" by Elmer Kieth sometime, another good read. He lived right up the road from here (90 miles). If your not familiar with him he's considered the father of the .44 Magnum handgun and at the risk of starting another war I hunt with mine real regular. About the same constraints as a real loud bow and arrow with just a titch more distance available to a guy. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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There you go Mike73, I think you protested too much! I thought the thread was dead but it turned into social hunting club, go figure. | |||
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That is a great elk! Back to the topic. IF you think it is prudent to use a .243 for elk-which I personally think is crazy-the only way to go would be a premium bullet such as a 100 grain Barnes or Nosler Partition etc. etc. I just don't see why anyone would want to use a little rifle on elk when there are so many better options. | |||
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If I had an elk tag and the only rifle I owned was a 243 winchester, and I could not afford to buy another rifle, and couldent sell or trade the 243 to buy a bigger rifle, id ask a friend if I could borrow a larger rifle for the hunt. I dont know why someone would want to attempt an elk kill with a 243 when there are so many better choices. For bragging rights??? | |||
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In his book "American Hunting Rifles" (written close to 20 years ago), Boddington states that the absolute minimum caliber for elk is a .270. With today's modern bullets of high quality contruction, the .270 is a fine round for elk. | |||
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montdoug Nice to hear from you again. Its good to be young and tough and down the big trophies and not have to care too much about cutting up and packing out of difficult terrain. I still do it myself but but I'me careful its never too far away from access roads. I have a few Guns & Ammo magazines around the house from the seventies with articles by Elmer Keith. An article I read years ago by him describes how he was involved in the developement of the 44 magum in conjunction with Remington and Smith & Wesson. He tells how he shot the first head of game with it, a goshawk off a tree at 100 yards ! Then himself and a friend located some mule deer on another occasion and his friend had a crack at 500 yards with his 300 magnum but missed. Elmer then kicked in with the 44 magnum and on the third shot struck the deer in the upper jaw, anyway after some chasing around they got their quarry. Its a long way to be shooting at game with a side-arm, but I guess he knew what he was doing. Craig Boddington says he was one of the finest shots with rifle, shotgun and handgun. I understand he was also responsible for the developement of the .333 which led to the .338 magnum. In recognition of his contrubtion to firearms and hunting in American a sculpture should be erected in his honour, he must have been a great character. As regards the bison did you ever get a crack at one yourself or are the tags too difficult to draw ? Best of luck for now. Joe | |||
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A few years back when beef prices tanked and ranch raised bison prices tanked as well the bison ranchers were selling bison real reasonable and you had to or got to shoot em yerself depending on your viewpoint. No kinda hunt but not a heck of a lot different from gassing a park elk in a late season hunt. I paid $500.00 and shot a 2 year old heifer, delicious! For the $500.00 along with the fantastic meat the guy gutted it and dropped it in my pickup with a Bobcat forklift, now I know how a bonafide dude feels on a paid for hunt . No I didn't use a .243 , instead I used a Remington Classic in .350 Mag shooting 250grain Hornadys. One shot in the neck at about 90 yards, kinda like shooting a cow after a short hike. All I wanted was the meat so shooting it just meant having a rifle to clean. The same shot I took with that .350 would have been just as effective had it been shot in the same place with a 100 grain Partition out of a .243 (playing devils advocate here ). P.S. If ya look at Kieth with today's 20-20 politically correct hind sight he was a real Cretin. If everyone still hunted just like he did there wouldn't be an animal left in the mountains. Interesting guy but his time has past. He was a big "Medium Bore" proponent though. Seen him once at a gun show in Idaho, he was a little dude with a great big hat and bigger attitude. Be that as it may he did a lot for medium bores and magnum handguns as well. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Well, if it must be done, then do it right, and use the Winchester supreme 55 grain ballistic tips. Gonna need an aweful lot of speed to get through them critters MoMike | |||
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LOL Mike, I knew you would come over to the dark side. | |||
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A friend of mine from New Zealand used his for culling both deer and elk. He routinely made head shots, off hand, at 300 yards, but of course he had been killing 2 to 300 animals annually for a long time. Just goes to show that the old adage is correct, "beware the one gun hunter". Jim | |||
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I shot one deer with the 55 gr ballistic tip in 243. By the grace of god, 1 piece of shrapnel went beyond the pothole and tore the heart. Too close for comfort. Mike73 | |||
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I gotta think the law of averages caught up with him, whether he told you or not. I'm sure doing that stunt, that some were not "bang/flop" kills. I spend alot of time down there on the south island around Christchurch, canterbury region. Where is your friend located? Does he guide? Thanks, Mike73 | |||
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Are you sure the shots were not uphill, both ways, in the dark while snowing, while standing on a moving horse? | |||
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I think a minimum should be a 260 Remington, 25-06, or 6.5x55. I'm taking my wife elk hunting next fall; we will be using her .308 winchester with 168 grain bullets. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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Then the actual Target Area would be "smaller" than the end of a dressed 2"x4" board(maybe a 1.4"x3.5"), with varying wind and uneven footing. No doubt he is ready to make a clean-sweep of the Olympic Trophys, the Whittington Center Shoots and every other shoot he enters. Amazing(and I don't mean the shooting)! | |||
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I was wondering about that myself. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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