I would like anybodys opinion please. I am in the midst of working up a 180 grain partition load for a 30-06. This is to be a moose load only. Well this weekend I got to reading an articale by John Barsness about how much he uses the 200 grain partition in the 06 as an elk load. I have been wondering if this would be the better plan? I am no expert. What are the pros and cons with bigger bullet less speed/smaller bullet more speed. Go with most accurate bullet or something different. There are too many choices today. I know thats a good thing. Thanks for any help.

You do not need anything stoughter than a 180 Nosler partition in an 06 for elk. Most of the non premium 30cal. 180grain bullets from the major manufacturers are adequate if the shot is placed where it should be. Look at the Nosler 180 or 200 as a "little" insurance.

An 80 +year old Grand Junctin hunter has been pulling military 06 bullets and replaceing them with the common Speer or Hornady's 150 grainers all his life. He gets one or two Elk every year and claims he hasn't lost one. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Leo M:
I would like anybodys opinion please. I am in the midst of working up a 180 grain partition load for a 30-06. This is to be a moose load only. Well this weekend I got to reading an articale by John Barsness about how much he uses the 200 grain partition in the 06 as an elk load. I have been wondering if this would be the better plan? I am no expert. What are the pros and cons with bigger bullet less speed/smaller bullet more speed. Go with most accurate bullet or something different. There are too many choices today. I know thats a good thing. Thanks for any help.

Leo, when I was out west I used to use 180 grain FailSafes almost exclusively but the terrain is considerably more open than your neck of the woods. I'm assuming where you are that most shots would be under 250 yards, maybe less than 200. In that case I would probably go with a good 220 grain premium bullet. Good penetration and accuracy can be surprisingly good with the heavier weights. Some will disagree but I like to anchor them the first time.

Although I use the heavier bullets usually, I don't think the difference in 20 grains from a 200 grain to a 180 grain is going to make or break a hunt.

If I could pass on any advise, is quit taking gunwriters as gospel, on what THEY do. Their advise is for the novice or those who have no clue on what they should be doing. Do what feels right to YOU.

I only load a heavier bullet tho usually in the 30/06 when I am driving it at the velocity of a lighter bullet. I drive 200 grain bullets at 2800 fps or so, and then there is a substantial increase in performance as far as foot lbs and also in how flat a trajectory will be.

good luck with whatever you try.

Cheers
seafire

eh?

quote:

only load a heavier bullet tho usually in the 30/06 when I am driving it at the velocity of a lighter bullet. I drive 200 grain bullets at 2800 fps or so, and then there is a substantial increase in performance as far as foot lbs and also in how flat a trajectory will be.

?

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

I drive 200 grain bullets at 2800 fps or so,

Cheers
seafire

eh?

That's driving pretty fast!

No pressure signs? Coated bullet? What's your secret?


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Most .30 cal projectiles seem to be made with the 30/06 in mind and behave pretty well at its velocity. The 180gr Partition from a 30/06 is a superb load, I doubt you'll gain anything by going to the 200gr.
Cheers...
Con

Well, I figure the best thing to do is to find a fella that has shot a bunch of moose and ask him(or her). All I know about moose is that they're big, brown, and live up north. Other than that I don't know diddly. If the 180gr Partitions shoot good, I figure that's what I'd use as I've heard/read enough about people using them to have confidence in them. I can see where the 200gr. PTs might be a good idea, but they may not shoot well in your gun. Finding and talking to moose hunting folks should be easier where you are than where I am. I am sure that someone that has some moose under their belt can help you out. Good luck and don't forget to show us pics of your moose!

A moose load ? You will get the standard answers about an elk load,but most of your fellow country men,me included, will give quite a different answer.A bullet should dump all it's energy in the boiler room,preventing that trip to the pond.A partion from a 30.06 shouldn't get the front blown off.read pencil.Then you are up to your Royal Canadian in cold water.A better choice might be a 180 Accubond.And try to call them within a winch cable of the road.

Go for the most accurate bullet, then practice a bunch. I agree with the guys, 20 grains difference in that caliber isn't worth worrying over.IMHO

I shot an elk twice, as fast as I could work the bolt at about forty yards with my 376 steyr (270grain hornady at 2400 fps). Both shots high, but passed through and got both lungs. The animal didn't make it to far but didn't fall in his tracks either. Same trip I watched my buddy shoot his elk with my 270 (130g sp at 3000fps) at about fifty yards. He shot elk...fell down...stood back up... he shot...fell back down...stayed down. I am not sure which combination is better, but don't let anyone tell you that light and fast has no knockdown power! (exluding game the size of a truck, or with claws and sharp teeth)

You don't need anything heavier or stouter than a premium 180 out of the .30-06 for moose. I've shot clear through moose with 180s out of the .300 Win. Mag. before, and I fail to see how a heavier bullet would have improved upon anything, especially a bullet that's only 20 grs. heavier. That's like expecting some minor miracle of performance merely by adding less than half the mass of a .224 caliber, 50 gr. varmint bullet to the equation........

AD

Have never seen much less shot a Moose but have shot a lot of Kudu and Wildebeest and Eland. My 30-06 preference for "AFRICA" is the 220gr Nosler Partition. Can't see where it would be less effective on Moose. It's very accurate in my rifle.

I agree with Allen... I watched a big AK moose take a 180 (Win PP) in the shoulder broadside from a 300 WM... bullet exited, moose died (58" rack). If you're concerned about penetration us an "X" or Failsafe... either will out-penetrate a 200 grain Partition, though a 180 NP will work fine.

You might try posting this in the Alaska or Canada hunting sections to get some feedback from few more folks that have taken a moose.

Smaller moose but, the folks in Europe take a lot of them with the 6.5 X 55

Like you I'm one of the gun nutz and worry over things like this, but I happen to live in BC amongst some rather large moose. Many of the locals use 30-06's or 270's quite happily with whatever ammo is on sale at the local store. Put almost any decent bullet in the lungs and the moose will tip over after standing there for a few seconds. It just takes a bit for those huge lungs to fill up with blood.

Personally, I've taken several with the 30-06 and never could find a moose large enough to stop a 165 X bullet started at 2880 fps.

Moose? Most times they are often taken down quite fast. You know that ole adage "practice - practice- practice makes perfect?" it does. Figuring how a bullet is going to work out is no different than asking yourself how can you get inclose to make the kill effeciently. I personally do not care for the famous "PARTITION" bullet as I always go for a bullet that truly holds together i.e., swift, bear claw or barnes. I see velocities in the super range, seemed to be favored this day and age and I shake my head wondering why? If you keep your range reasonable and within your abilities a well placed shot at modest velocities will do the job. Oh yea! we all say this -aim small hit small. 165 grain on up in the 30-06 works very well - some think heavy is better and then....... it goes on.

For a large animal moose are not really that hard to kill. If you are lucky enough to get a broadside shot and put a bullet in the lungs just about anything will work. Lots of the local natives swear by their old 30-30s and 303's. Unfortunantly you don't very often get that classic broadside shot. Or maybe I should say I haven't in over 30 years of hunting moose.I usually find themhalf covered in some dam willows,quartering towards you trying to get downwind to smell you. More often than not you are faced with a quartering shot. I used a 30-06 for quite a few years and found the 200 Speer bullet was very effective on moose with all the 4831 I could get in an 06 case. The 220 Hornady RN is good as well. Both would penetrate far better than a 180 gr bullet. If I were to use my 06 on moose again it would be with a 200 gr slug.

I too like the Speer 180 and 200 grain Hotcor spitzer bullets. I never took a Moose as tags are so hard to draw in Wyoming but I took many elk with those two bullets. I used the 200 in a 300 Win mag with a max load of H1000 and it sure seemed to have some advantages over the 180 in my 30-06 other than recoil. Superb penetration and bone breaking ability. The 30-06 also worked just fine but I never had to break heavy bone while hunting elk with it though I did smash a shoulder or two it was still a simple broadside shot in the brush.

seafire,

I am in no way disputing your 62.5 gr. of H4831Sc for a 200 gr. bullet. I use Federal cases, & if I fill it level to the top, tap it a little, I can then get 62.5 grs. Do you have problems seating the bullets ????

How did you get 66 grs. in the case. drop tube ???? Thanks

[/QUOTE]

My loads are with 62.5 grains of H 4831 SC and I got loosen primers at 66 grains, so I considered it safe. [/QUOTE]

Seafire: You need to check under the pan of your loading scale and clean out those half-dozen pieces of No. 6 shot rolling around on the pan platform. While you're at it, you should move the screens on your chronograph back to the factory spec spacing. After doing these two things, you'll find that your charge of 60 grains of 4831 is generating 2600 fps with a Nosler 200.

(No offense meant and hope you take this in the spirit of good humor in which it is intended!)

quote:

Originally posted by chestsprings:
seafire,

I am in no way disputing your 62.5 gr. of H4831Sc for a 200 gr. bullet. I use Federal cases, & if I fill it level to the top, tap it a little, I can then get 62.5 grs. Do you have problems seating the bullets ????

How did you get 66 grs. in the case. drop tube ???? Thanks

NO problems seating the bullet at all. Although that is a compressed load. 66 grains is really getting to be a compressed load. If bullet is not crimped it will walk out a little.

I also seat these bullets to magazine length. The throat seems to take them with no problem.


I should really point out to some of the guys in here also, that like to knock this sort of stuff.

Those that know me, know that I like to see where the limits of my rifles are at. What we all consider a safe load is our own judgement call, as we are the one's that have to shoot it.

I have played with H 4831 SC in the 30/06 after a question raised by one of the other forum members a while ago. I was really knocked when I first loaded this and reported it.

However one person did support it, and indicated that he worked in an environment that tested rifles and pressures every day. A few people really attacked him then, and so he gave out his phone number and told anyone who wanted to discuss this could call him about it. He had made the statement that in the lab he had access to, that they tested H 4831 SC in the 06 a lot and that in their opinion one could not get enough in a case to cause pressure problems.

I don't know how many people called him, but If you did, you found out the gentleman that everyone was attacking, was the ballistician at Nosler. I guess a few did call, because those with the condescending opinions sure shut up in hurry.

As far as what a rifle can do, one has to ask himself, why he needs it to do so. I can push a 200 grain bullet to 2850 fps in a 30/06. Some other guys knock that, and tell me they only get 2600. That is cool. What someone really has to ask himself, is what is that extra 250 fps really going to give him? People can quote foot pounds and flatter trajectory all day long. HOwever in the real world, foot pounds are not what ultimately kills. It is shot placement. I dont' think the extra foot pounds are going to make or break a hunt, except in extreme and rare situations. Heck I'd be just as happy with the 2600 fps as the 2850 in the real world.

The difference in a flatter trajectory at 250 more ft per second is also not going to make or break a hunt, because if it is that critical, my personal response is you maybe need to get closer.

If one needs max payload out of an 06, then that is why I want to know what the max limit really is. That is why I handload. If you only have an 06, then you know where that limit might be. Each one of us needs to work up our own loads in our own rifles. I just share how far out into the unknown I have gone, and what SEEMS to present no problems and what the results were.

But I think one of the best advise responses that is given and makes good logical sense: If you need a 300 Mag, then get one instead of trying to make your 30/06 into one.

Most guys that do know me will find, I am more likely to be out hunting with a 30/06 loaded with a 220 grain at 2200 to 2400 fps a lot more often than I will be out with an 06 loaded at 2850 fps.

I limit my shots to 200 yds on most deer hunting, and up to 250 yds, if the conditions warrant it.
Unlike in my youth, I don't think one needs 3500 fps to take down a deer, regardless of size.

There is a big difference between a 1000 yd target load and the need for the same velocity in a hunting load.

I will stand by my findings that 2850 fps is easily obtainable with a 200 grain bullet in the average 30/06. But then in most instants, I am going to ask you, do you really need it???

Only the shooter can answer that, and ultimately take responsibility for the safety leverl of that load in HIS rifle.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

My loads are with 62.5 grains of H 4831 SC and I got loosen primers at 66 grains, so I considered it safe. [/QUOTE]

Seafire: You need to check under the pan of your loading scale and clean out those half-dozen pieces of No. 6 shot rolling around on the pan platform. While you're at it, you should move the screens on your chronograph back to the factory spec spacing. After doing these two things, you'll find that your charge of 60 grains of 4831 is generating 2600 fps with a Nosler 200.

(No offense meant and hope you take this in the spirit of good humor in which it is intended!)[/QUOTE]

Stoney:

Checked my load pan and did remove all of that Number 6 shot you were talking about. Since I don't handload shotgun when did you sneak it into that load pan???? Darn it next time you do that let me know!

Secondly I did set the chronograph back to factory spacing and darn thing is still giving me the same readings!

And as far as a Nosler partition ( 200 grains) getting 2600 fps with 60 grains of H 4831; well, I am using the 4831 SC so I don't know if that makes a difference. I am also too cheap to burn up the Nosler Partitions for testing velocity when I can get Speer bullets for so much more cheaper.

I can't say if it has to do with the load bearing surface or some techno jargon like that.

My chronograph has been pretty spot on, with the spendy ones several guys I know who own them.

I can only speculate that it might be from me seating the bullets out as far as the magazine lenght will allow or how far the lands will allow after making a dummy round.

Recently on trying the old 220 grain round nose load testing, in making a dummy round, I was surprised on how far from the cannelure on the Hornady 220 grainer, that the throats on my Model 70 ( factory barrel), my Springfield, and My 1917 Enfield ( original WW 1 barrel) would swallow.

That will give me more case capacity and less load baring surface which will increase velocity and do so at lower pressure.

So some of my critics might want to try that in their rifles. They may be surprised at what they find. Just hope they have the good sense to work up.

I just share what I find; not quote it as gospel.
Some guys need to know the difference.

Everyone should learn to work up if they don't already know that. I have some rifles with some powders don't even get within 2 to 4 grains of what reload manuals call max load, before mine are popping primers, with one powder and then they can go past max load with another powder with no problems.

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by chestsprings:
seafire,

I am in no way disputing your 62.5 gr. of H4831Sc for a 200 gr. bullet. I use Federal cases, & if I fill it level to the top, tap it a little, I can then get 62.5 grs. Do you have problems seating the bullets ????

How did you get 66 grs. in the case. drop tube ???? Thanks

CS:

I have found also Federal brass to be thicker and have less case capacity than say Winchester and Remington brass. I was loading 223 ammo to go Sage rat shooting again and have a hot load with RL 7. The Federal Brass will only hold 26 grains of RL 7, while the Remington, LaKe City and the Winchester brass will all hold 28 grains of RL 7.

So that might explain some of the difficulty of 66 grains of H 4831 SC in the 06 Federal Cases.

Cheers
seafire

Guys, below are the veloocity/pressure predictions from QL for many of the "best" powders in a 30-06 Spring, with 24" barrel, 200 gr. Nosler Accubond, & OAL 3.34." Norma MRP is the "best" performer, but you can't buy it in the USA anymore. That Re25 load looks promising - it's the one I'd try to workup to, and I think it's doable. Also, the VVn560 looks good, and Retumbo might work well, especially if one could get a bit more powder in the case than 63 grs. H4831sc is respectable, but not the best; and, at 62.5 grs. you're at 77,000 PSI - "primer poppin' country."

Powder/%fill/grs. powder/velocity fps/PSI

MRP/113.0/60.7/2822/65000
Re25/120.0/62.1/2810/64789
N560/111.1/60.3/2803/65000
MAGPRO/114.1/62.9/2793/65000
Re22/113.9/59.9/2788/65000
WXR/112.6/60.2/2787/65000
RamMag/114.9/64.0/2778/65000
I7828SSC/111.3/59.5/2774/65000
RamHun/102.2/56.6/2742/65000
Retumbo/120.0/62.8/2738/58468
H4831SC/111.8/60.0/2731/65000
H4831sc/116.4/62.5/2862/77000

I ran the program again but allowed for 125% case filling. I was able to get 66.5 grs. of Retumbo in a Lapua 30-06 Springfield unfired case. These slow-burner loads are very doable! - you can get 2800 fps + in a 24" barreled '06!

MRP/113.0/60.7/2822/65000
Retumbo/123.1/64.4/2820/65000
MRP-2/123.0/64.0/2818/65000
Re25/120.1/62.1/2813/65000
N560/111.1/60.3/2803/65000

Seafire-Did you try any h4832sc with 180gr bullets and if you did what were the results?

Thanks,
Victor

Here are some doable loads for 180 gr. NBT in a std. 30-06 with 24" barrel. Staying at 65,000 psi or less would be safe. All these would be tap-in + compression loads - but all within reason. The std '06 is underloaded and, thus, underrated. It's a great cartridge, when loaded to the same pressures as the latest-and-greatest "magnums." The manufacturers need to sell guns - new guns - to stay in business.

Re25/120.5/66.6/2979/65000
N560/111.5/64.6/2967/65000
MAGPRO/114.5/67.4/2954/65000
Re22/114.3/64.2/2953/65000
WXR/113.0/64.5/2952/65000
I7828SSC/111.8/63.7/2936/65000

H4831SC/112.1/64.3/2890/65000

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
Seafire-Did you try any h4832sc with 180gr bullets and if you did what were the results?

Thanks,
Victor

Victor:
I did try the 180 grain bullets also, but they did not show the velocity increase results that the heavier bullets showed. 60 grains of H 4831 SC that is shown in a lot of reloading books, do not seem to have the pressure as high as max.

Instead of 50K PSI range, I have seen info that the pressure was only about 46K PSI range. Of course I have also seen where they claimed it as 50K in other reload manuals. So that is why I test my own loads for my own rifles.

As I have pointed out, in some of my rifles, they will pop primers several grains below what a reload manual lists as max. Then the same rifle will take a fair percentage over max, or will be take 4 or more grains of powder to give me the velocity claimed in the manual.

cheers
seafire

Ackley;

YOu make a good point that the 30/06 is under rated.

I don't understand why some guys claim that pressure in one cartridge is fine, and the same pressure in a nother cartridge is over loaded when both are in the same action. Such as the WSMs in a model 70 action vs a 30/06 in the same action.

I am sure they do not make the WSM actions stronger than the regular actions.

The other point is the brass and its pressure potential, but we all know the effect of lawyers on the rifle industry. They would have us shooting 30K PSI loads if they had their ways, or even worse, ban us from shooting all together.

This is said with respect. while I look at a reload manual as a source of reference, they even high light that it is just a reference. Sure they have pressure testing equipment that I don't have, but they also have lawyers breathing down their necks which I don't have to deal with.

If I can load a piece of brass, 5 times with the same load and still have a tight primer pocket, then I am not concerned about the pressure being too high in that load.

Consult some 1960s reload manuals, and those loads are at times really hot by today's standards.

But when a new cartridge comes out like these dopey short mags, no one questions their pressures being sky high. Everyone is too interested in velocity. Yet the same guys will knock a load in a round that has been around a long time, because its performance is better than rated in reload manuals. Sort of negates their big interest in the new Magnum Cartridges, so they criticize the load in a 30/06 that shows it s potential and sing the praises of the same pressure level loads in a 300 Short Mag.

cheers
seafire

I agree the new short mags are all hype with little added value. But, the gun manufacturers need to sell guns, so they hype the PSIs in the new cartridges and downgrade the PSIs in the old. This makes the new short mags look better than they are. By the way Nosler has some hot loads, especially for the 308, which they apparently like. Finally, the '06 case is as strong as any other case - brass is brass, and if it'g good brass it'll take a pounding - PO Ackley compared belted mag brass to '06 brass and found them equally strong. Also, modern bolt-action rifles are all equally strong and able to withstand 150,000+ psi. However, some of the old military guns and automatics are not as strong, and that is why '06 is not loaded as hot.

good to see so much interest in the 30-06. Seems like in recent times it has been passed over for the short/ultra mag

The '06 will continue to go on-and-on like the EverReady Bunny.

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
Seafire-Did you try any h4832sc with 180gr bullets and if you did what were the results?

Thanks,
Victor

Victor:

I answered your question once below, but going thru some of my loading and chronographing records, from last September when I was playing with H 4831SC in the 30/06, I did find a reading that might be of interest or not.

NO pressure problems were observed and the brass was reloaded several times testing this load with no primer pocket loosening. This was also done in a 1917 Enfield with a 26 inch barrel. It has the original factory 1918 barrel date stamp. The throat is long and the bullet was seated out to magazine length. The bullet is a Remington 180 grain SP, Case was a Remington ( used before) Primer was a CCI large rifle. this of course is a compressed load.

65.0 grains of H 4831SC, 5 shot chronograph average was 3046 fps.

If you load up to this, please work up from 60 grains to start.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

quote:

65.0 grains of H 4831SC, 5 shot chronograph average was 3046 fps.

Seafire, QL predicts ~78,000 psi for a 180 gr. bullet fired from an '06 with a 24" barrel and H4831sc and 3046 fps. That is REALLY HOT! 2900 fps is a more reasonable expection - that is, limiting PSI to ~65,000. If you want more velocity at reasonable pressure use a slower burning powder.

Well what do the load books say? I have about 12 to 15 of them and I don't have to do all this testing because they have already done it. I know all rifles aren't the same but the load books are close enought for me. I like my rifles
to stay together!!

Hey someone asked a question so I answered it.

I point out the parameters as seating the bullet long and let them work up, as pointed out. Everyone has to be responsible for their own use.

If jro45 is fine using reloading book data, then he is exercising his own personal responsibility.

I may not see a need for a 3000 fps/ 180 grain load in an 06 when I also own a 300 Mag.

At the same time, I think you guys put too little faith in the quality of a rifle and its steel.

I reload a case five times and make sure the primer pocket is still tight on the sixth use, before I call a load safe for my personal use.
I do that with 4 to 5 pieces of brass in my final testing, and then log it in my load book.

The 3050 fps 180 grain load showed me that, seated to magazine length in the Enfield. And it was worked up.

And jro45< I love doing all of this testing. I love to know where the limits of my rifles and those calibers are, both high and low.

If I criticize something, It is because I have tested it and made my own conclusions, not passed on what I read, that has to be done under the scrutiny of some attorney ( who is probably anti gun anyway). Too many guys criticize something without personally testing it to see if maybe the posting person has a valid point or result.

Load books have to publish stuff that is suppose to work in ANYONE's rifle. Well I have had load books give me a load that has popped primers at 2 to 4 grains below what was listed as max. So, what does that tell me? Work up in your own rifle's there seafire and then you know what does work.

AI:
Thanks for the Ouick Load data. Actually if I hunt with a 30/06 usually my MV with 180 or 220 grain bullets, are in the neighborhood of 2200 to 2400 fps. Round Noses and zeroed for 200 yds.

cheers
seafire

Is the barrel length in an Enfield 26" or 24"?

Seafire,
What is the magazine length on your Enfield? I have a Browning A-bolt that I'm going to re-barrel with 24" or 26" Pac-nor stainless. I'd like to have a little more powder capacity and can modify the clip by moving the feed ramp forward if necessary. I assume your bullets must be seated pretty far out to load as much powder as you are. I'm looking far a ballpark figure so I can send a dummy round to Pac-nor.

Thanks again,
Victor

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Is the barrel length in an Enfield 26" or 24"?

The Enfield has a 26 inch barrel on it.

seafire