El D, that being the case, you might want to try Retumbo, which is an "extreme" powder from Hodgdon and "not sensitive" to temperature extremes. Retumbo is much like Re25. Regards, AIU

thanks Ackley Improved User,

As closely as your program matched my MV, I doubt that it missed the pressure reading by much.

This is why I want a Pressure Trace System, If I had known actual pressure when using this load, I would have reduced it a little bit.

Based on brass life, primer appearance, and primer pocket expansion, I never believed this load to be over 65000.

I am sure that quick load is far more accurate than my "wild ass guess".

Thanks again for running the data.

I have hunted in north Quebec for caribou for a long time. Every year my friends up there kill trainloads of moose with Dominion 215 grain round nose 303's chugging along at about 2100fps.They do not consider themselves "undergunned" because, after all, it works just fine God only knows how many are shot with "turdy turdies". The 30-30 is the only rifle my guides wife can use and she does just fine with it on moose. Many very large brown bears are killed in Alaska every year with 300 Win mags and Reminton 180 Core Loks bought off the shelf at Fred Meyers or Three Bears and no one thinks that much about it. Moose are not all that hard to kill, the 180's will do just fine. The first time you shoot a moose you will walk up on it and go "Holy #$@&, what did I just do?" The real work now lies before you. Good luck.

Idaho Shooter, why not get Quick Load? Regards, AIU

Ackley Improved User,

I am now beginning to consider it. In the past, I had not expected good accuracy with its predictions, and I considered it overpriced at 149 dollars.

For less than twice that cost, one can set up several rifles with strain gages, using the Pressure Trace System, and get real data for the rifle in question.

Even as attractive as I find the PT, it still has not made it high enough on the priority list to order one yet. Having both would be an ideal situation and would lead to some interesting experiments. In particular, with the 264 Win mag using Retumbo and MagPro with 140 gr bullets, as well as the 7mmSTW with 162 gr bullets.

Idaho Shooter,

The PT systems have been a bit off-putting for me. Why? Those peculiar (unexplained) secondary spikes and the lack of an internal control are very troubling. If I got a PT system, I'd use QL as well to double check all findings.

If I had a 264 or 7mm STW, I'd try some 50BMG powders such as:

ADI AR 2218 (aka., Hodgdons 50BMG)
Hodgdon H870 (dirty stuff- ugh!)
Vihtavuori 20N29
Vihtavuori 24N41

These super slow burners might give superb performance with heavier bullets in these over-bore cartridges.

Regards, AIU

AIU

I am not familiar with the other three powders you mentioned, but H870 has been of no use in my rifles, with the bullets I use.

I have tried it in the 264 with 140's and the STW with 160's.

Just for giggles, would you mind running QL with this combination.

7mm STW, 26 in barrel, 160 gr Sierra SBT, and 99.0 gr of H870. This load gave me 3300 fps, with high velocity spread.

Do any of you think that there is any difference in 2800 FPS and 2700 FPS in the real world of hunting elk with a 200 gr. bullet in a 30-06??? If you do, then you need to shoot more elk...

quote:

AIU
Just for giggles, would you mind running QL with this combination.

7mm STW, 26 in barrel, 160 gr Sierra SBT, and 99.0 gr of H870. This load gave me 3300 fps, with high velocity spread.

99 grs/3580/99,400 PSI

92 grs/3300/72,128 PSI

89 grs/3200/65,000 PSI

You were likely HOT! at 3300 fps. 3200 fps is achievable staying within 65,000 PSI with 870.

Regards, AIU

I agree that's probably too hot a load. However, I have had different lots of H870 that were so different it's like they weren't even the same powder. One lot was so "cold" it took a boatload more of it to equal the same velocities in otherwise identical loads. It's very possible a batch like that might act "slower" or enough differently that higher velocities than Quickload predicts are possible.

Quickload's predictions can only be as good as the powder data. I wouldn't put much faith in them for H870 since I've seen it vary so wildly. Sort of a moot point anyway since the stuff is no longer made....

Jon A, I think just from his velocity (3300 fps), he was hot. I've had the same experience as you with H870 - considerable lot-to-lot variation. I believe Idaho Hunter got 99 grs. in his case and fired, but he was still over 70,000 psi, when he got 3300 fps. It's probably best H870 is gone. Have you tried H50BMG?

Regards, AIU

I haven't tried H50BMG yet but I've been planning to. Retumbo is just a touch fast for the bullets I want to shoot.

What I'd really like to do right now is get my hands on some AR-2218 somehow and test it against H50BMG to see if they're really the same or if Quickload's powder data is correct. I'm really, really hoping Quickload's data is correct--just run a 300 RUM simulation with any somewhat heavy bullet and you'll see why.

99 gr of H870 was not a regular shooting load, but was one of a series which I shot to generate a charge weight vs velocity curve. A few years ago this was my standard method of load developement. I started with book loads and increased charge weights, while looking for high pressure signs, and recording velocities.

This is the reason A PT system is very high on my "things to buy list". Traditional pressure signs are simply too unreliable for serious load developement work. If this load was generating in excess of 72000 psi, CCI 250 primers are a lot harder than I would have expected. The primers were only begining to show a loss of radius at this point.

The Sierra manual shows 3250 fps attainable in the 7STW with 88.4 gr of H870. 88.5 gr of H870 only gave 2824 fps in my rifle. my further testing gave these results:

Gr H870 Velocity Bullet: Hornady 162 BTSP Primer: CCI250
88.5 2824
91.5 2864
93.0 3050
94.0 3150
95.0 3229
96.0 3221
97.0 3252
98.0 3260
99.0 3300

This rifle always requires higher than published charge weights to reach expected velocities. Examination of the velocity versus charge weight curve shows me that 95 gr and 3229 fps is the highest practicle load in this cartridge with my rifle.

I can easily match that velocity with 83 gr of H1000 and get more loads per pound as well as reduced recoil, H1000 at 3200 fps is the load I have been using for the last four years.

RL25 has given me too much deviation in velocity readings for me to be comfortable with it in either this rifle or the 264.

I have yet to experiment with Magnum or Retumbo.

Jon A,
I understand your excitement about AR2218, but it could be a quirk in QL. H50BMG is AR2218 - I called Hodgdon, and they confirmed it. H50BMG does not fair well in QL. But, you'll never get AR2218 in the USA, because Hodgdon has acquired exclusive rights to ditribute all ADI powders. In fact, most Hodgdons' powders are ADI-AR powders with new names. This has all been posted on this forum - you should be able to find it in the archives. In the meantime, I bought some H50BMG, but I'm having trouble getting the load density claimed. It might be worth a try. Let me know if you try it.
Regards, AIU

That's what I'd expect Hogdon to say. But the physical properties for the ADI powders in Quickload had to come from somewhere. In most cases they're close enough to the Hogdon equivalent to be ignored...but not in this case (hard to ignore that many fps!). Also note the difference in filling ratio.

In any case, I sure would like to test them for myself. Then I'd know for sure. I'll let you know if I succeed.

Jon A, where do plan to get AR2218?

If/when I ever find a source, I'll let you know.

Jon A, I'd love to get some too- let me know, if you find a source. In the meantime, try H50BMG. I am! But, thus far, I'm disappointed, because the load density is not as high as QL would indicate. Regards, AIU

Do you mean it isn't filling the case as much as you'd like or are you having trouble getting enough into the case?

Anyway, I just worked up a load with H50BMG today. Haven't shot it for accuracy yet but it's going to have to be pretty good to beat Retumbo. Hopefully it'll be at least as good as I'm expecting quite a bit better velocity.

JonA, yes, I'm not able to get as much H50BMG into a Lapua 300 WM case as I'd like - 93 grs. max. Hence, I may not be able to reach 65,000 psi. Regards, AIU

Given the large kernel size of this powder, and the fact that some of my mildly compressed loads (when I loaded them) would "shake" after a trip to the range and back, I think some vibration could help pack bunches of this powder into a case. Give it a try.

Jon A, when I pack, I use a long drop tube (Sinclair) to incrementally add powder, all the while I tap the case against the loading table. After that, I tap the case with a steel spoon, and I'm willing to pack powder to the absolute brim of the neck followed by seating the bullet. These are not compressed loads; they're crushed-powder loads. Trust me, I'm getting the MAXIMUM amount of powder in the cases. The large kernel size of H50BMG limits the load density. Let me know what you get - I'll do likewise.

FWIW I just returned from the range having shot a decent group (sorry, no pics) with a Hornady 180 Gr interloack boattail and 56 grains of H-414 (two grains over max per Hodgdon's book).(.30-06 M-70 Fwt)

The load chrono'd 2825'/sec from the 22" barrel.

One of the three shot groups was the typical all touching cloverleaf. Actual five shot groups run slightly over an inch.

This is very decent medicine for most big (not dangerous) game on the planet. Recoil is a very sharp rap and indeed unpleasant from the light rifle.

When I get more swift A-Frames I'll substitute the swift for the current bullet and work up again.

VapoDog;

I have also found that H 414 is a good powder. I loaded some recently testing loads in a 6mm Remington....All 14 other powders each gave real acceptable prairie dog accuracy with a 75 grain HP Hornady bullet....

However, the last one I tried was 47 grains of H 414. I could not believe the 3 shot group! So I loaded up some more and next time at the range, and got the same results! This time I chronographed them out of a 24 inch heavy barreled Remington 700,Long Action. Chronograph speeds varied from 3650 to 3750! 100 fps velocity spread... YOU'D think that would not tend to be that accurate when some of the other powders only has SD of 10 fps or less....

However if I did this measuring right... a 3 shot group measured.0.0505 according to the calculator! ON both trips! Needless to say, one can guess what load that rifle will be packing for prairie dogs in Montana at the end of June!

Cheers
seafire

vapodog, QL predicts ~69,000 psi for the 414/180 Horn load. moving at 2825. That's toasty.

AIU...thanks....can you redo it with 55 grains H-414 instead?

Cartridge: .30-06 Spring.
Bullet: .308, 180, HDY InterBond
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length: 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder: Hodgdon H414

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum recommended loads!

Charge/Vel./Pmax

52.44/2557/50585
53.58/2613/53975
54.72/2669/57600
55.86/2725/61480
57.00/2781/65637
58.14/2837/70095
59.28/2893/74884

Howdy,
Last year I loaded 220 grain Nosler Partitions over IMR 4350 for Africa. My Mannlicher-Schoenauer MCA shoots those into an inch at 100 yards, allowing me to take Wildebeest, Zebra, Bontebok, Kudu, and Steenbok with one shot each. The Kudo was 125 yards, Wildebeest at 220, Zebra at 150 and the Steenbok at point blank (30 yards?). Heavy bullets provide an added edge for that anchoring shot, if and when you may need it. In reality, 180 should handle everything in North America. On the other hand, I would swear all the game in Africa is armor plated.
Larry

If you want to use a 200 gr. Nosler on Moose then do so, it will sure work, but so will the 180 and the 180 will give you a little more range theoritcally....I doubt if it makes much difference one way or the other....

I use 180 Nosler almost exclusively in my 30-06 and 200 gr. Nosler almost exclusively in my 300 H&H.......

Ackley Improved User,

I think our dreams have come true:



http://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/New%20Powder%20From%20Hodgdon.pdf

A ball powder (so you can stuff much more into the case) with a burning rate around H870 or a hair slower, and it's temperature stable!

It should be just what the doctor ordered for heavy bullets in the RUM.

If the 180gr won't do the job,you need to step up in bore size to at least the .338".There is nothing that a 200gr -.308" bullet can do that a 180gr-.308" bullet can't do.

My 30/06 has a 26" barrel also. That gives me about 100 fps more then what the books say. My action is Rem. 700.