quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
Seafire,
What is the magazine length on your Enfield? I have a Browning A-bolt that I'm going to re-barrel with 24" or 26" Pac-nor stainless. I'd like to have a little more powder capacity and can modify the clip by moving the feed ramp forward if necessary. I assume your bullets must be seated pretty far out to load as much powder as you are. I'm looking far a ballpark figure so I can send a dummy round to Pac-nor.

Thanks again,
Victor

Victor,

Unless you are going to use your A Bolt as a single shot, I would recommend considering the 30/06 Ackley Improved ( I am sure Ackley Improved User here can give you great advise.)

I went out in the garage and loaded up some dummy rounds to check the OAL of the Enfield. I also own an A Bolt, a Model 70 a Model 700 and a Springfield in 30/06. I usually use MMs myself in measurements, but I also did the conversion length in American for you also.These are 180 grain bullets except the last two.

1. Remington Corelokt: 85.09 mms/ 3.3500 inches

2. Hornady SP: 84.72mms/ 3.3355 inches

3. Nosler Ballistic tip: 86.26 mm/ 3.3965 inches

4. Speer Round Nose: 83.22 mm/ 3.2765 inches

5. Sierra 190 grain Match: 86.64 mms/ 3.3715 inch

6. Speer 200 grain: 85.21mm/ 3.3545 inches

All of these lengths are touching the lands in the Enfield. It is based on pushing a partially seated round into the chamber and then shoving the bolt close. Therefore if the load was hot I'd back the bullet off a partial part of a MM.

Once again the Enfield has a 26 inch barrel on it. ( if not longer, as it is the original 1918 barrel. The action has been sporterized.

Finally I'd test a round seated to magazine length. When I have a barrel done or a barrel throated I always make a dummy round and tell the gunsmith to have him make it where the throat fits the dummy round I have made up, or at times I will make up several of them in different bullets. The overall length limitations is based on the ogive placement on each of the bullets listed. The magazine will swallow the Nosler Ballistic Tip which is the longest.

Hope this helps and good luck with the project.

Also welcome to the forum, since I noticed you are a new member.

Cheers
seafire

Seafire,
Thanks for going to so much trouble to measure your AOL. I was considering a 30 Gibbs until I saw the results you got with H4831SC. Your results are so close to what I'd expect from a 30 Gibbs to make that project questionable. I had a 270 Gibbs built last year and am very happy with it. It's the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. While fireforming with 150gr SST's it shot cloverleafs. With 150gr NP's it shot less than 1/2" with the 4 loads I tried so far. I sent Pac-nor a dummy round w/150 gr NP that was longer that my clip (another A-Bolt) and then modified the feed ramp when I got the rifle and found the actual AOL. I had to modify the feed ramp anyway for the Gibbs shoulder. It was a lot of trouble but I enjoyed doing it. I'm an old hotrodder(62) and I like the idea of a smaller capacity catridge "outrunning" a larger capacity cartridge. I'm a new member but I've been reading Accuratereloading for a while and always enjoy your posts. I'll let you know how everything turns out.

Thanks,
Victor

guys
63 gns of H 4831 S/C gives a vel of 2783 fps and a pressure of 67800 psi in a 24 inch pressure barrel these figures were obtained from a fully blown pressre lab ...no expense spared
i hate to think what PRESSURE 66 gn of H 4831 S/C would produce behind a 200 gn proj even taking into account the possibility of a large loose chamber seated out proj bit of free bore etc etc ...close to 80,000 PSI ...FACT!!!!!!!!!!!

just hang on a few more mounths and i will have completed my pressure testing of the 06 with 180 gn and 200 gn proj with a variety of powders and let me say this , it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 2900 fps with a 180 gn proj in the 06 no matter what any computer programe says once you hit 2900 fps with a 180 gn proj you are getting over 70,000 psi
regards daniel

guys
that 63 gn load was with a 180 gn proj
regards daniel

M98, have you tried all the powders and loads below with a 24" barrel? If not, how can you say it's impossible to achieve these velocities and stay within a max average PSI of 65,000?

Re25/120.5/66.6/2979/65000
N560/111.5/64.6/2967/65000
MAGPRO/114.5/67.4/2954/65000
Re22/114.3/64.2/2953/65000
WXR/113.0/64.5/2952/65000
I7828SSC/111.8/63.7/2936/65000

M98, I was excited to read your post and learn about the testing your doing. Now, as you do your testing, would it be too much to ask you to compare your pressure-barrel findings with the NECO QL predictions, given your specific conditions and post the results here. If you don't have the program, I'll be glad to run the program, if you'll feed me your conditions, loads, barrel length, OAL, powder, bullet wt & type, etc.

Also, at what pressures do you begin to see extracter markes, significanly loosened primer pockets, and outright blown primers, when using a brand new (never fired before) case? This information would be most helpful to all of us, who don't have access to a first-rate ballistics lab with a piezo-electric transducer pressure barrel set up.

ackley
i will send you a P.M
in my testing i use lapua brass and we cant destroy the stuff because i run my loads at pretty high pressures i usually fire the new cases twice to work harden the case head with about a three quater load ...after that i can run it at pretty much full throttle with no loose primer pockets
i can run at pressures of 70,000psi with no real signs of high pressure ...an example is 57 gn of h 4350 behing a 200 gn nosler partition pressure of 70,000 mv 2700 fps and after 10 shots primer pockets are still tight
the only sign that the pressures are high is primers are so very slightley flattened
in the comming mounths as i said i will post the results of all my results
regards daniel

ackley
you hit a new unfired case with 70-75,000 psi straight of and you will loose n your primer pocket real quick the same case you fire two or three time at three quater throttle
to harden the case head and then you can run it pretty hard and the lapua brass still holds up REAL well
you will start finding marks on your case head once you start getting well over 70,000 psi
stan watson put out a really good manual get hold of it if you can its worth its weight in gold he used a stress gauge which is not as accurate as the transducer method ....a lot of his loads gave lower pressures for higher velocaties when compared to mine data which tells me the stress gauge is not as sensative as the transducer but still an excellent guide and excellent manual
regards daniel

M98,

I was hoping that you'd pick up on this thread. Since H 4831Sc is an Australian made powder anyway, you should be able to get it tested thoroughly.

I do think Silverado's best bet is looking at a 06 Ackley, but it will be interesting to see what your results are. I did speak at length with a gentleman over at Nosler about their testings with that powder .

Cheers
seafire

M98, I need to know the barrel length of the test barrel you're using. AIU

I like exit holes so tend to shoot the heavier bullets.....however in the old '06 there's not a lot of difference in the 180 verses the 200 grainers

70000 is high pressure and is to be avoided in my opinion. It doesn't matter if you can somehow keep the cases together at that pressure it is still too high. But hey knock yourself out.

JMHO

Ackley,

This weekend I worked up some loads in my .30-06 Featherweight with a 22" barrel. I loaded 57, 58, 59 grains H4350 behind 180 gn. Nosler Accubonds. I got 2810 fps at 57 gns. 2830fps at 58 gns. and 2850 at 59 gns. My new Winchester cases did not show any signs of excess pressure and the 57 and 58 grain loads were very accurate, shooting into .500 to .700 groups. According to your computer model, are these loads within pressure limits?

Thanks,
Chet

Chet, I can share some REAL ballistics lab data (piezo-electric transducer) with you and do a QL analysis for you.

First, the REAL data - it was kindly provided by M98 and I'm most thankful. We should all be thankful. It is not 180 gr. Nosler Accubond data, but 180 gr. Nosler Partition data with a 24" barrel.

The data is arranged to show grs. of H4350 with laboratory measured velocity and PSI, followed by the QL predictions for velocity and presure from actual powder grs. of H4350, and finally followed by QL predicted PSI from the laboratory measured velocity.

30-06 H4350 180 gr. Nosler Partition 24†barrel

Lab grs/vel/PSI.....QL-vel/QL-PSI.....QL-PSI

56/2715/59,500 ….2663/50,607 ….53,600
57/2766/62,300 ….2712/53,586 ….56,800
58/2805/63,800 ….2761/56,760 ….59,800
58.5/2818/63,900….2786/58,425 ….60,500
59/2835/63,600 ….2811/60,143 ….61,900

Note: For H4350, QL continues to perform reasonably well. QL is best at predicting PSI from lab velocity. For a PSI of 65,000 with 180 NosPart, QL predicts vel=2877 with 60.3 grs. of H4350. In my opinion, this is M98's best load - I believe he could increase it by 0.5 grs and still be OK. Also, it is worth noting that Hodgdons gets 2796 fps with 57.5 grs. of H4350 in a 24" barrel with a 180 gr. Sierra BT and claims ~48,700 CUP (~58,700 PSI).

Now for an QL analysis of your data - that is, 30-06 180 gr Accubond Nosler with 22" barrel (although it would be best if I knew your cartridge OAL - OAL makes a difference - I assume 3.4").

QL velocity/PSI predictions from grs. of H4350

57/2700/57,266
58/2749/60,788
59/2800/64,560

QL PSI predictions from your actual chronographed velocities

2810/65,348
2830/66,951
2850/68,603

Note: You're getting great performance from your load (esp. with a 22" barrel), but you're on the hot side. I wouldn't go beyond the 57 grs of H4350 at 2800 fps. However, please note that lot-to-lot variations in powder can be significant making it impossible to predict with absolute precision. But then, not all of us have access to a ballistics laboratory, hence I'll stay with the QL estimates for now.

Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

quote:

I can share some REAL ballistics lab data

Thank you, AIU. I do enjoy this sort of data. In comparing QL to load book data, such as Lyman 48 or Hodgdon's annuals, I see the same trend. QL is better at matching pressure to fps than charge to either fps or P. (Of course, so is the 40+ year old Powley Computer.)

One thing I find curious about the data here is that for a given fps, the QL P is 5 to 10 % low, whereas with load book data, QL P is often more like 12 to 15% low. That is, if I use QL's suggestion to reduce the target pressue by 12.5% from the industry spec, QL always seems to find a fps which is near that in the load book. It doesn't often agree with which powder to use, but it seems to always find the correct fps. I don't know what to make of it all.

Anyway, it's nice to see the match to H4350 is pretty decent.

asdf, interesting commets - thanks. Something worth doing would be to go to the most recent Hodgdons manual and correlate their velocity/pressure data with what QL predicts - both from grs. of powder and from measured velocity. Pick a few calibers, and I'll pick some as well and post the comparisons.

For example, the Hodgdons load I mention above - 180 SierraBT/57.5 grs H4350/24" barrel/2796 fps/58,700 PSI - is very accurately matched by QL predictions. In fact, from velocity (2796), QL predicts a PSI = 58,931 (but wth 58.6 grs of H4350). From grs. (57.5) QL predicts vel = 2740 and PSI of 55,298. Amazingly close! It would most interesting how QL predicts many other Hodgdons loads, which I'm told come from a piezo-electric transducer system.

PS. CUP is usually ~10,000 below PSI.

If you believe in "paper ballistics" the 165 will have more energy the 165 gr will carrry more energy at long range, and drop less.
Probably not a nickles difference at normal hunting range.
Good luck!

I also use the 30-06 and have been pleased on the few elk and moose i have had the opportunity to shoot. For moose I used the old Rem Core Lokt 180 grains. It has worked fine on board side and facing moose. For elk I went to 165 gr Partitions as I was wanting a bit more range if needed. Again the load did all I could ask but in one case the bullet must have sheared off the front immediately on impact as the entrance had every appearance of an exit wound.
The one time I tried 220 gr was the one time I had a long shot and believe me there is a great difference. I' stick with 165 or 180's from now and see no great advantage in the premiums at 30-06 velocities.

For Moose I would opt for a 200 gr. Nosler...but most of my shooting with the 06 is with the 180 gr. Nosler since I have a 300 H&H that shoots only 200 gr. Noslers..

I like a 180 gr. premium bullet such as the Nosler, NorthFork or woodliegh in a 30-06...I reserve the 200 and 220 for my 300 H&H, where the case capacity is more suitable.

thought I had better clearify the above...

Just gonna throw some data in here.
I just did some load developing for a new remy '06 barrel.My 24" factory tube with 3.48 COAL 180gr Baltips gets 2800fps with 57.5 grains of H4350.My chrony had 57gr loads getting 2770-2780fps.These loads were both well under MOA 3 shot groups,I wanted the extra fps for longer distance shooting.
The 165gr baltips grouped equally as well with the same powder loads, but the COAL length when close to the land was'nt leaving enough bullet inside the brass.Thought I should error on the side of safety.RB

Ruttinbuck, that looks like a good load, but you could probably take it up to 2850 fps without going over 65,000 psi. Either 58 or 58.5 grs. will likely get you there. Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

Thanks Ackley.I may try the hotter loads with some partitions I have here.I am content at 2800fps with baltips,my '06 is a 400yd candidate.

I don't hunt much in US so can't speak to Elk/Moose loads, but I do hunt Africa with the 30-06 and my load for years has been 220gr Nosler Partitions in front of 51grs of IMR4350 for about 2375fps. Have had no problems in Africa for anything from Duiker to Wildebeest. I have to admit that most of my shots are under 200yds but have taken Wildebeest out to 375 yds with this load. I would have no hesitation taking Eland should the opportunity preseent itself. I have to admit also that this load shoots to about .750 in my rifle which is a custom 39 Mdl 70 with a Krieger barrel. I started using 220gr Noslers when I started to go to Africa 9 years ago. In 8 straight trips it has not failed to do the job on plains game and cannot believe it would not be more than adequate for Moose/Elk.

Zimbabwe, I thought you might like to see what QL predicts for an '06 with a 24" barrel with a 220 gr. Nosler partition bullet. Here are the top performing powders, when limited to 115% fill capacity and 65,000 PSI - amazing.

Norma MRP/61.1/2720
N560/60.8/2710
MAGPRO/63.4/2703
RamshotMag/64.8/2701
Re25/62.3/2697/63424 psi (best load)
Re22/60.3/2689
I7828SSC/60.1/2689

You can do better with some of the slower burning powders. Indeed, that Re25 load looks SUPER - it's not even reaching 65,000 PSI and getting 2700 fps and 3560 ft# energy (lions beware).

Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

NOW AIU,

That is some useful information!

I have to agree with Zimbabwe, that the 220 grain Partition is my favorite 30 caliber partition!

Cheers
seafire

I chrongraphed my 30-06 shooting 180 grain accubond nad 57.5 grains of H-4350 out of a 26-1/4"barrel and recorded 2905 fps I am quite happy with this performance

quote:

I would recommend considering the 30/06 Ackley Improved

WHY????? It offers virtually nothing over the standard .30-06

Vapodog, you comment is unfair to the '06 AI - it'll get ~100 fps more for the same bullets with the same powders and pressures. No a huge improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

DISCLAIMER....The following was worked up in my rifle. It exceeds any published data. Do not use as data for your rifle. Work up loads for your rifles using published data.

What would you fellows with QL predict as a peak chamber pressure for my favorite "heavy game" 06 load. It consists of a Hornady 190 BTSP over 60 gr of IMR 4831 and a CCI250 primer in a Rem Ni case. Chrony says 2800 fps. Trajectory out to 400 yds says the Chrony is right on.

This is out of a Win 670 with 22 in barrel.

When doing load developement, I took the load to 3000 fps, with severely flattened primers. At 2800 fps the primers showed only the slightest bit of radius loss, and primer pockets were still tight after six and seven reloads.

I found that my rifle gave much more serious signs of high pressure at velocities below 2800 fps when I was doing load developement using the 180 gr Partition, the old Barnes X 180, and the 180 Win Fail Safe. The heavier Hornady boattail with its minimal bearing surface allowed me to reach higher velocities.

This would be the load I would choose to knock down a large bull elk or moose, if I still hunted with an 06.

Were I a dedicated fan of the 06, I would buy a Ruger #1B with it's 26 in barrel and see if this load didn't clock up to 2900 fps. If not it could certainly be brought there with an AI rechamber job.

QL prediction for 22†barrel, 30-06, 60 grs. IMR4350, 190 Horn. BTSP

– 2916 fps, 78,000 psi. (way too hot).

QL prediction for 22†barrel, 30-06, 57.5 grss. IMR4350, 190 Horn BTST

– 2800 fps, 67,358 psi. (a bit too hot).

QL predicts the following as the best powders for the 190 gr. Horn. in the ’06 when loaded to 120% capacity (ie., tapped in powder with compressed loads) and 65,000 psi limit with a 22†barrel:

Powder/grs/vel/pressure
Norma MRP/64.3/2863/65000 (not available, although = Re22)
Re25/65.9/2857/65000 (BEST LOAD!! – you can get 66 grs. in Lapua ’06 brass)
N560/63.9/2844/65000 (Great load)
MAGPRO/66.6/2833/65000
Re22/63.5/2830/65000 (Should try for certain!!)
WXR/63.8/2828/65000
RamMag/67.9/2823/65000
PCL 517/67.9/2822/65000
IMR7828 SSC/63.1/2818/65000 (Should try for certain!!)
Retumbo/67.2/2809/60718 (Potential BEST LOAD!! – look at PSI)

You can do much better than you’re getting with IMR4350, which is a fairly fast powder. Go with a slow burner, especially Re25 – it works great in my ’06 AI (3100 fps/180 gr. NBT, 26†barrel).

Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

Ackley Improved User,

Thanks for the answers from quick load. I agree IMR 4350 would be way hot for this bullet at high velocity.

Perhaps you misread my post, I used IMR 4831 with the 190 Horn BTSP.

Based on my experience with RL25 in the 264 Win and 7mm STW, I am not sure that I could have gotten enough in a 30-06 case to reach 2800 fps with this bullet. That point is moot anyway, as at the time I was working up this load RL22 was a fairly new powder and RL25 was unheard of.

I really expected H4831 to be the powder of choice when I started this project, but inexplicably it flattened primers at lower muzzle velocities than the typically faster IMR4831.

There simply was not much available in a burn rate slower than H4831 without dropping all the way down to H870. And H870 was of no use in the 06, even with 220gr Sierra Matchkings.

I have since sold this Winchester rifle, which always was my "freezer filler", to make way for a Ruger #1 7mmSTW. But am still curious what QL says about the pressure values.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Vapodog, you comment is unfair to the '06 AI - it'll get ~100 fps more for the same bullets with the same powders and pressures. No a huge improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

Allow me to quote directly from the Hornady reloading manual:

"Our .30-06 Improved did not live up to better performance expectations; it only succeeded in using more powder to reach the same velocities possible with the standard .30-06."

This is from a company that publishes loads for their bullets and those loads are fired in pressure barrels.
Please don't argue with me.....call Hornady and argue with them... 1-800-338-3220

Idaho Shooter,

I apologize - I did misread your post. Here's the data for H4831.

22" barrel, 60 grs. H4831, Horn 190 -2600/52,700 psi.
22" barrel, 64 grs. H4831, Horn 190 - 2800 fps/67,400 psi (likely where you were).

Vapodog,

I don't know about Hornady, but I own and shoot both and have compared them extensively. Also, you might check out QL, which shows '06 AI getting ~75 fps more all else equal. Also, let me share some data with you for the '06 AI with a sundry of bullets using Re25 and 180 gr. bullets (26" barrel). If you don't believe this, get an '06 AI and try it.

powder/grs/bullet/velocity/comments

R25… 67.5 /180 LRB 3064/3037 Lapua/great pocks
R25… 68.0 /180 LRB 3078/3102 Lapua/great pocks
R25… 68.0 /180 NBT 3100 Lapua.
R25… 68.5/180 LRB 3051/3114 Lapua/great pocks
R25… 68.5/180 SWI 3149 Lapua/great pocks
R25… 68.5/180 NBT 3113/3131 Lapua Max/pocksOK
R25… 69.0 /180 NBT 3094 (aver)Win/Ok pocks
R25… 69.0 180 SWIFT 3090/3050/3075 Lapua Brass
R25… 69.0/180 Accubond 3106/3123/3078
R25… 69.5 /180 NBT 3169 Win Brass/ pockets OK
R25… 69.5 /180 Swift 3032 New 06 AI (Oehler)
R25… 70.0 /180 NBT 3084/3083/3098 (Oehler)
R25… 70.0 /180 NBT 3111/3091/3118 (Oehler)

According to QL, I'm just getting to 65,000 psi - but the cases are packed.

Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

Vapodog,

Please tell me, which Hornady manual discusses the 30-06 AI. I could find no data for it in the #3 or #6.

The Nosler #4 does have data for this cartridge. In this manual Steve Timm says its performance "lies right in the middle of the big void that exists between the 30-06 Springfield and the 300 Winchester Magnum".

The Nosler manual shows the 180 gr balistic tip and 180 gr Partitions (2 of them) at 2985 fps with 62 gr of RL22, and the 200 gr partition at 2768 fps with 59.5 gr of RL22.

"This is from a company that publishes loads for their bullets and those loads are fired in pressure barrels.
Please don't argue with me....."

Sierra # V says that the AI is only capable of 40 to 50 FPS additional velocity over the 30-06 at equivalent pressures, "making this a questionable conversion at best."

My evaluation is that the truth lies about halfway between the statement from Steve Timm and that from Sierra. I have certainly never seen any published data for the 30-06 Springfield as optimistic as this published for the AI in Nosler.

When I was shooting and developing loads for my 30-06AI, I searched the local libraries for data to use with this cartridge. Several sources stated that this cartridge had no performance gains over the 30-06 Springfield until one got to bullet weights of 180 gr and higher, and then only with the slowest powders available in the day. Read that as H4831. My Mauser conversion with a 22 inch barrel showed this statement to be true. It performed well with 180 and 190 gr bullets over H4831.


AIU,
One hit to left of bullseye, one hit to right of bullseye, try IMR4831 in QL, though the data provided for 4350 and H4831 is interesting. I imagine it will also predict 67000 psi for 2800 fps.

quote:

According to QL, I'm just getting to 65,000 psi - but the cases are packed

IMO the standard .30-06 is loaded to about 58,000 PSI I would suspect that one would increase the velocity a little more than the 75'/sec simply by loading the standard cartridge to 65,000 and no AI dimensional changes at all. There's no reason why this can't be done.

quote:

Vapodog,

Please tell me, which Hornady manual discusses the 30-06 AI. I could find no data for it in the #3 or #6.

My fifth edition manual no longer shows this loading but my (much older) manual called volume II does show this cartridge. It was printed in 1973.

In all fairness one must assume that some gains are possible and this has been discussed at length as well. I'd easily agree that 25% of the powder increase will be seen in velocity gains on a typical rifle. some more and some less. By this I mean that if one can increase the powder capacity by 10% then .25 X 10 is approximately the velocity gain to be expected.

The .30-06 just isn't as good a candidate for the AI changes as such tapered cartridges as the .22-250/.250-3000 case.

Idaho Shooter, I doubly apologize; I'm just glancing at the posts. But, here's the data for IMR4831. QL hit your velocity right on the money!

190 H/22"bar/60 grs.IMR4831/2808 fps/69,500 (HOT!)

Vapodog, when compared to the std '06, QL gives the '06 AI ~ 75fps more velocity for just about every bullet/powder combination - WITH THE STD '06 AND '06 AI BOTH LOADED TO 65,000 PSI and using the same length barrels (all else equal). More powder translates to more velocity, but you're correct in that it's only a modest ~3% increased in velocity and ~9% increase in kinetic energy. But, the '06 AI looks "sexier."

Regards and safe/happy shooting, AIU

Thanks for the feedback.....I'm going to start another thread on the reloading forum and the subject is to be Quick-load...please join me there for a good hashing of the product and it's true usefulness.
Thanks again.....Vapo

quote:

Seafire: ...."After doing these two things, you'll find that your charge of 60 grains of 4831 is generating 2600 fps with a Nosler 200."

Both of my present .30/'06's give 2680 FPS @ 10' from the muzzle with 59 grains of H4831..... I have not tried to increase this load!