I have rifles chambered in the H&H and Ruger. I will not be getting rid of the H&H, but I will be hunting with the Ruger. Just a handier package with the same end result. And likely the forthcoming 416 Ruger will also have a use here also; and I will be keeping my 416 Rem. Even if I would achieve 100fps less with the shorter rounds, they would still be my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Mmaggi, you state that the .375 Ruger is flatter shooting and packs more punch. Where did you get that idea, Ruger marketing?

From previous post (Hornady .375 H&H magnum loads are hot with 270 grain bullets at 2870 FPS and .375 Ruger 270 grain loads at 2840 FPS are similar.)Same loading technique don't you know. This velocity number is stated on the Hornady ammunition boxes. This is not made up. They use the same powder and loading technology.
Do the research and you shall see.

JFM - my point is that it doesn't matter. They are both very good cartridges that will get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

"(my post)"

Only addresses the issue of prices, nothing about functioning of the rifle.

I have come to believe too many folks that don't really shoot that much, have fell into the hype about short actions being bettwer than long actions, yet I don't know if even any experts could tell if a elk or a cape buffalo was shot with the 375 Ruger or the 375 H&H if looking at the dead animal.

I thought it went unsaid, but I guess I'll spell it out...

All things being equal there is no functional difference between a short and long action.

So, all things being equal why would you pay $500+ more for a ruger or kimber action in .375 H&H, when for significantly less money you get basically the same action that does the same thing in .375 Ruger?

It all comes down to value for your money.

Now if you already own a 'magnum' length action, there's no reason to switch at all.

All the Holland and Holland owners can rest easy, because I highly doubt Mr. Shoemaker is going to break into your home and take away all your .375 H&H's.

.

Two observations:

1) What is this discussion doing in the Med Bore (.27-.366 as defined by Saeed) section?

2) I believe the 375 H&H will fall off the face of the earth at the same time that a majority of men give up booze and women

quote:

I thought it went unsaid, but I guess I'll spell it out...

All things being equal there is no functional difference between a short and long action.

So, all things being equal why would you pay $500+ more for a ruger or kimber action in .375 H&H, when for significantly less money you get basically the same action that does the same thing in .375 Ruger?

It all comes down to value for your money.

Now if you already own a 'magnum' length action, there's no reason to switch at all.

All the Holland and Holland owners can rest easy, because I highly doubt Mr. Shoemaker is going to break into your home and take away all your .375 H&H's.

Sorry that my opinion bothered you so much, but I paid about $700.00 for the used 375 H&H I use, can I get a 375 ruger, new or used for that much???

Price is immaterial, availability of ammo or loadinging supplies isn't.

Availabilty at the local gun shop is also a consideration, both guns and ammo.

You nor anyone else has came forth with a reason or any evidence as to why, the 375 H&H has outlived its usefullness and should be placed on the scrap heap.

Companies do not make money from nostalgic enthusiasts. Their money comes from regular folks who are looking for a fair deal on rifles and ammo that work.
Sure there are deals on used 375 H&H rifles but comparing used rifles to new ones is a fools game.

No one is taking away anyones choice of rifles. I certainly am not suggesting that anyone trade in their beloved 375 H&H for a new Ruger - but am simply predicting that in the long run the Ruger will prove to be the more popular round.

quote:

Originally posted by Abob:
FASTEEL, when I was a teenager, all I wanted was a fast motorcycle but couldn't afford it, now that I'm in my 50's I own both a pickup truck & mini van and could buy a motorcycle if I still wanted one

By young shooter I was referring to guys in their 30's. FS

I must disagree with Phil and this is the first time I have ever done so as he is my favourite gunwriter whose genuine knowledge I greatly respect.

My minor point here concerning his last post is that Ruger, HAS made money from ...nostalgic enthusiasts... and largely was founded on that premise. So, I suspect that his opinion here may be in error.

That said, I think that a LOT of guys here in BC ARE buying .375 Rugers over H&Hs and most of these are younger shooters who seem to buy more on contemporary marketing than nostalgia. I have two P-64s in .375H&H, one minty original in a Borden-Rimrock and one custom "shorty", much like Phil's working guns and even I have seriously pondered buying a Ruger "Alaskan".

Seriously, for BC hunting and what little I have seen of Alaska, the Yukon and NWT, it is hard to envision a better setup than matched rifles in .300WSM and .375 Ruger...crf of course!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
You nor anyone else has came forth with a reason or any evidence as to why, the 375 H&H has outlived its usefullness and should be placed on the scrap heap.

This is the frustrating part of this ‘argument’.

No one has said the H&H is obsolete and should be placed on the scrap heap. No one is trying to make the case for that. Statements like that are just putting words into people’s mouths.

All we are saying, (and I’m taking the risk of speaking for others). Is that the .375 Ruger has a very good shot at having some real staying power in the marketplace. And if it stays around long enough, I think it can make some serious headway into the H&H’s market share.

Now it will take a many years to really see what happens, but I believe that the round has some serious traction. And I outlined the reasons why in my two previous posts.

Will it be the next .300 win mag? I don’t know. But even the .300 win didn’t kill off the .300H&H. You can still buy .300H&H guns and ammo, and no animal can tell the difference between the two when shot.

No animal will ever be able to tell the difference between the .375 H&H or Ruger either. And even if the .375 Rugers market share grows very large it will never ‘eliminate’ the H&H. No one is claiming that it will.

I and others just believe that the .375 Ruger has the potential to become a standard.

The H&H is a great round, I have 4 of them.I have to agree with 458 on the fact that the ruger is simply a better design, less case trimming, more compact etc.. I think the 375 ruger will over take the H&H in new rifle sales in areas like alaska, yukon, northern B.C and such.In africa because of ammo availability the H&H will reign.We should all embrace new cartridge designs as these are what drive the industry and give us something new to talk about and play with.The H&H will always be here, we won't! so hunt and shoot while you can.

I've thought long and hard about this discussion, weighed all the points and counterpoints, and here's what I've come up with that I think will settle the argument.

Who Cares!!!!

For as much as Phil thinks his prediction is right and is willing to put it in writing, there is an equal chance that he could actually be wrong! But again, who cares unless you are just practicing up on your internet debating skills.

Buy whichever caliber you want and be happy, the animals will be just as happy getting a free ride into town.

quote:

The .375 H&H got it's reputation of reliability in the hot African climates with it's mild, sloped shoulder and low pressure, which aids in feeding, and extraction of the fired case. The .375 Ruger has a sharp shoulder, and runs at very high pressure, which are both detrimental in African heat.

Not true. The .375 H & H was never low pressure. It's original standard maximum "pressure" was 19.5 tons (Base CUP, which isn't chamber pressure) which is quite high. Restated to piezo method chamber pressure by CIP (British & European standard), it's 62,366 PSI. SAAMI standard max pressure for the H & H is 62,000 PSI. SAAMI max pressure for the .375 Ruger is 62,000 PSI. The Ruger is larger, and was specifically designed to operate at the same pressure as the H & H.

For DG the 375 H&H tapered case is a nice design feature to ease extraction.

Ammo is easier to find around the world. It has history. And best of all it says "Holland & Holland" on it

quote:

375 H&H on the way out?

Oh come on. How could any intelligent person take this statement seriously?

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:

As long as there are romantics and dreamers, with a love of Africa, Safari, and fine Rifles in their hearts, there will be a place for the .375 H&H.

Well said Lee! That about sums up this argument.

quote:

No one has said the H&H is obsolete and should be placed on the scrap heap. No one is trying to make the case for that. Statements like that are just putting words into people’s mouths.

I disagree, because basically that is what this whole thread is about, the 375 Ruger replacing the 375 H&H.

This is not putting or trying to put words in anyones mouth, in your own words:

quote:

I and others just believe that the .375 Ruger has the potential to become a standard.

Some of those others are not saying anything about potential, they are saying the 375 H&H is dead and the Ruger is the heir apparent.

Will the Ruger enjoy popularity with some shooters/hunters, yes.

Will it still be around 10 or 15 yeqrs down the road, no one knows.

Does it really offer anything that the H&H does not?

The beauty lies in the fact that we are able to see companies try and create better cartridges and the guns to shoot them, and we have the fredom to have such discussions as this one.

Well, just to add fuel to the fire. If I had to limit myself to just three rifles (not counting rimfires), the 375H&H would be one of them. Took my Kodiak with one, and took one (#1 Ruger)to Africa, even thou I shot all my game w/7x57. Truely one of the greats along with 06, 30-30, 7x57, and 6.5x55's. Writers sell articles.
1Shirt!

Dewey, you are correct that Ruger has made plenty of money off of nostalgia - no one does it better - but even they decided the 375 H&H could use some improvements.

And Wes I am glad to see someone gets it - thanks for tying to explain it to all the others.

I just recently got a 375Ruger Alaskan and love it.

Personally I find it hard to get nostalgic about the h&h - after all in Africa they are like a**holes - everyones got one

I guess I just like something different......

I am a huge fan of the 375 H&H, and currently have three rifles so chambered. I seriously doubt this grand old cartridge is anywhere near going out.

That being said, I also think that the .375 Ruger cartridge has merit. It's a powerful little package. But unless other gun manufacturers pick up this chammbering, it will probably be the one going out. The Ruger rifles are fine for the money (except for that terrible Hogue stock!), but unless Remington, Winchester and others begin offering rifles in .375 Ruger, the cartridge will never achieve what it might otherwise accomplish.

I think the 375 Ruger is a fine cartridge, but I don't see it replacing the 375 H&H any time soon.

Does anyone see the 450 Marlin replacing the 45-70? Old favorites have some staying power for a reason, IMO.

Cheers,

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Timberline:
I am a huge fan of the 375 H&H, and currently have three rifles so chambered. I seriously doubt this grand old cartridge is anywhere near going out.

That being said, I also think that the .375 Ruger cartridge has merit. It's a powerful little package. But unless other gun manufacturers pick up this chammbering, it will probably be the one going out. The Ruger rifles are fine for the money (except for that terrible Hogue stock!), but unless Remington, Winchester and others begin offering rifles in .375 Ruger, the cartridge will never achieve what it might otherwise accomplish.

Maybe it's my age or just general "orneryness", but, I am inclined to agree with Timberline. The superb 7x64 and .280 Remington rounds have not replaced the 7mm Mauser and I think that a similar situation will happen here.....could be wrong, JMO.

It's been a long time since I posted on here but I just had to weigh in on this one.

A new line of "magnum" cartridges made W/a case that is based on the .532" head sans the useless (in a bolt action rifle) belt makes a lot more sense than the RUM, SAUM & WSM renderings. After all, if you are going to take up magazine space W/the .532 diameter of the belted case head, why not make the case itself the same diameter?

It may be unfortunate that this common sense "fat" magnum did not hit the market before all of the aformentioned "fat" magnums.

Now that the market is diluted it will be a bit more difficult for the "Ruger" based magnums to gain a significant foothold.

It would make perfect sense to have a whole line of "Ruger" magnums ranging from 7mm to .458 including an 8mm version.

If I had not already purchased a set of dies for the 8X68S, I wuld seriously consider an 8MM Ruger wildcat.

Anyone in the market for some slightly used Redding 8X68S dies used only for mocking up dummy rounds along W/20 unfired HP cases?

Looking at the Ruger website, http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/....x=18&imagefield.y=8 it says the 375 Ruger has a three round capacity.

Is that two in the magazine and one in the chamber?

If one of the advantages, as mentioned in the article is a compact action, easy to wrap your hand around, I can do that with a 35 Whelen, and have five rounds in the magazine, one in the chamber.

Three rounds versus six. Which would you pick?

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Looking at the Ruger website, http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/....x=18&imagefield.y=8 it says the 375 Ruger has a three round capacity.

Is that two in the magazine and one in the chamber?

If one of the advantages, as mentioned in the article is a compact action, easy to wrap your hand around, I can do that with a 35 Whelen, and have five rounds in the magazine, one in the chamber.

Three rounds versus six. Which would you pick?

I hardly think that the 35 Whelen compares to the 375 Ruger.

I would think that the 3 round capacity would be the magazine capacity anyway, the 30-06 is listed as 4 round capacity. So, W/1 in the chamber, it would be 4 compared to 5 shot capacity.



.473" X 3.5 = 1.656" magazine stack hieght stacked @ 60*

.532" X 3 = 1.596" magazine stack hieght stacked @ 60*

If you can't get em W/4, will 5 make a difference?

One thing I've always loved about my 375 H&H is no matter what bullet I load (235 to 300 solid), the POI is very, very close, can't remember the last time I had to make an adjustment to my scope

I was wondering if those shooting the 375 Ruger are have the same results?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Dewey, you are correct that Ruger has made plenty of money off of nostalgia - no one does it better - but even they decided the 375 H&H could use some improvements.

And Wes I am glad to see someone gets it - thanks for tying to explain it to all the others.

Phil, I think it is a good enough cartridge, but I am surprised you buy into Rugers's supposed bringing out the .375 Ruger cartridge because they feel the .375 H&H needs improvement.

I would find a statement that they brought it out because at least temporarioly it gives them a market niche advantage to be much more credible.

As I remember, the 375 WBY was an improvement of the H&H, more velocity. The 378 WBY was an improvement on the 375 WBY, even more velocity. Now the improvement is virtually the same velocity in a smaller package. Different take on improvement.

The Ruger package is an affordable dangerous-game rifle. The cartridge is beltless, and the gun has the correct sights. It has the short barrel option for PH's and others who appreciate the superior balance and handling. The action length is correct for hunters whose other rifles are built on standard-length actions. No need to mention the wing safety and CRF.

Why all the pissin' and moanin'? Can anyone say Luddite? There's an alternate available. I'll be interested to see how it fares in Africa, where the action length may or may not be an advantage.

Phil, I don't subscribe to Successful Hunter so I don't get to read many of your articles. I always look forward to seeing something of yours in Rifle and HandLoader, and have greatly appreciated your work over the years. You have an influential perspective.

quote:

\an affordable dangerous-game rifle.

Unless you are one of the very lucky (and statistically irrelevant from a gun sales point of view) few that live in dg country, the words affordable and dg rifle in the same sentence is laughable. That this is part of the marketing strategy is evidence that the cartridge/rifles are more about marketing than performance. Having said that, I'm sure the Ruger is an excellent cartridge. But the improvements over the H&H are small enough to be meaningless in the field. I can't remember which AR poster said it first, and I paraphrase a bit, but "if an inch of action length and a few ounces of gun weight matter to you, you need a gym membership, not a new rifle."

As to whether the Ruger takes over from the H&H, well, that depends. It depends on the effectiveness of the marketing and whether the global sporting arms market is driven by riflemen and dreamers or hunters who just want something proven to work every time. In good economic times I'd bet on the former, but today I'd bet on hunters, the hardest of hard core fanatics. When the depression is over, there will be a new line of techincally excellent and operationally redundant cartridges for the riflemen and dreamers. I guess in the long run my money will be on the H&H.

Dean

I wish the .375ruger success, but if its aimed at a market of guys who cannot afford anything more than a ruger,
chances are they wont be able to afford much DG hunting either.

At age 66, I firmly believe that I will come to my end long before my H&H does. Back to Africa one more time, with ultimate confidence in my Model 70 .375 H&H.

Perhaps we are addressing the needs of different market segments. Ganyana, African PH and chief examiner on the PH's proficiency test, made the following observation in an article in November's Rifle:

"Over the year's, I have seen a wide variety of aspirant PHs choices of their ideal dangerous game rifles, and more to the point, I have seen what doesn't work. A quick look at a candidate's rifle listed on the proficiency test will quickly reveal just how much dangerous game experience he actually has, much more so than his log book. The biggest problem facing many of the of the learner PHs is that they simply cannot afford a top-of-the-line rifle, but it's interesting to see the modifications made to transform an over-the-counter rifle into a proper working rifle suitable for dangerous game."

Does anyone see a market niche here? Wonder how it could influence the buying predilections of customer hunters?

In the January issue of Rifle, our author, in an article adjacent to the subject article by Phil Shoemaker, offered this opinion:

"But the reality is, the .375 H&H and .450/400 are still the best choices for a client coming to Africa for big game - the same as they were 100 years ago."

Ganyana's personal carry choice (not his back-up rifle, a .500/416) is a standard-length action 9.3 x 62. The two articles quoted here are Choosing A Dangerous Game Rifle and Calibers for Dangerous Game. Desirable features noted among others in the articles are a beltless cartridge, a short barrel for balance and handling, and action length. I see the standard-length Ruger facing off against the magnum-length CZ (H&H). It should come down to product availability, and common action-length in a rifle battery.

Why is the .375 H&H better than the .375 Ruger?


Because the .375 H&H can be rechambered to .375 Wby!!


....and still use .375 H&H factory ammo if your bag gets lost.

.375 H&H is the preferred rifle by PH's in the Republic of South Africa. Not only because of easy reloading of reliable ammo, but because it finishes off anything that may or may not change direction.......

I seem to recollect that not many years ago that the .416 Rigby, the .404 Jeffery, and many if not most of the NE cartridges were virtually unavailable in Africa or any other country for that matter so I’d not discount the usefulness of .375 Ruger rifles and cartridges solely due to their current availability in Africa - that may also change in the next few years as it has for the aforementioned cartridges.

The .375 H&H cartridge is the entrenched chambering in Africa for minimum DG caliber cartridge except for those exceptions allowing the 9,3mm’s usage. I perceive this entrenchment has much to do with the availability of both old and new rifles chambered in this cartridge as well as purchasable ammunition being somewhat “readily” available for purchase. It does have a 96-year track record of usage, ‘twas introduced in 1912 though not readily available to the shooting public that first year, though one must remember that it had a blemished reputation for use against larger DG due primarily to deforming and fragmenting solid bullets that were factory loaded during its early years. Its early reputation is not totally dissimilar from the tarnished reputation of the .458 WinMag due to ammunition issues during its early years though the .375 H&H’s reputation was completely repaired with factories use of quality brass and bullets – seems Winchester is its own worst enemy with regards to the .458 WinMag.

One area of strength the .375 Ruger cartridges has over the .375 H&H for some of us is that standard length M98 Mauser actions can be easily modified to use it without the potentially hazardous cut to the lower bolt lug recess that is required for use of the .375 H&H cartridge. Myself, were I to submit one of my M98 Mauser actions for 3.6” COAL modification I’d opt for the .404 Jeffery rather than the .375 H&H and have a bit more history and oomph a the bullet end to boot.

To each their own...I prefer many choices rather than only a select few!

Merry Christmas to all!

I don't have even a wildass guess as to which .375 rifle is the most popular in 10 years.

On the long range shooting, I think Phil NAILED IT! This guy has been in the field watching shoorers for umpteen hours over the past few years. Members of his family have been watching bazillion hours of guidees (guide-ees; maybe guidi or ii?) over the past many years. This man has experiences that only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has seen. If he says this is so, then I am inclined to believe him!

I am a Gen-X'r who is not "old", but even I greew up reading that only the most advanced marksman should shoot at non-wounded at 300 yards. Now true, true, technology has improved DRAMATICALLY over the years, but if anything the shooter variable in the equation has not. Or mightt have gotter worse. People read some stories about long range hunting, buy said equipment, and expect to be an accurate shot at insane ranges. Few ranges exist today, hours of work are considerably longer, and society has come up with a lot of new things to do wit ha family man's spare time, further reducing range time.

All of this is true, and Phil's ideas jive with that. I generally defer to the man who says,"last time I did thins..." to a person who says,"Last time I read this...)

Let's see if we can all agree on a few facts:

.375H&H:

- The .375H&H is a great all around large game cartridge combining terminal effectiveness with manageable recoil.

- Hundreds of thousands of serviceable rifles are in the field.

- Every major manufacturer chambers for the .375H&H today.

- Cartridges are available everywhere you'd likely take a .375H&H, and most places you never would.

Conclusion: The .375H&H will likely be around as long as you can buy firearms and ammo.


.375 Ruger:

- The .375 Ruger does what the .375H&H can do in a shorter (.30-06 length) action.

- It's standard magnum base size makes it easy to chamber in standard magnum bolt actions, an advantage for other manufacturers and wildcatters building their own rifles.

- It's case capacity, coupled with the above, make it a great starting point for wildcatters to develop in other calibers.

- Not many manufacturers, other than Ruger, chamber for it.

Conclusion: Size advantage and ease of chambering give it a shot at long-term commercial success. Adaptability for wildcatters gives it a shot as a long-term "niche" cartridge with limited but steady component availability.

Seems to me that Mr. Shoemaker, achieved the "Holy Grail" of writing - lots of folks talking about the Article.

Like it or Lump it - doesn't matter as long as people began discussing it. I quit buying the Gun Rags because they didn't have enough Articles that made me think about what was written.

The last time I saw this much discussion about an Article was when "an unknown" was assigned the task of Trash Talking the venerable, time-proven 30-06.

Congratulations Mr. Shoemaker, agree or not, your article is what it is all about.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

I think that the 375 H&H will be around forever.

It can still hold its own in Africa.