The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 1 MOA rifle no longer acceptable? (Article by Boddingon)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Well, I think that having an exceptionally accurate rifle (>1"@100yds) is a real confidence builder, but after load developement and sighting in, I'm much better off practicing field positions where shooting technique, rifle balance, and a great trigger is more important. Had a gentlemen bench shooting a Blaser with a Zeiss Scope next to me the other day. Even though I don't think he will ever do this combo justice in the accuracy department, he will probably get his Elk! I fiddle a lot with my hunting rifles to try to optimise their performance, but once and if I hit that 1" mark, I'm done playing. | |||
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Only if you can hold dead +/- one inch at 300 yards. The more accurate the rifle, the greater the "wobble" area. With my most accurate rifles, I can honestly keep my groups less than 1 moa in the field (shooting sitting with a sling and a bipod). Today I fired two shoots at 710 yards that were only 3 inches apart. I can come damn close to 1 moa shooting with a sling from the sit with no rest. As for the CB comments, I have said it before and will say it again: I would like to hear more intl hunting stories by other authors. JudgeG would be excellent. But, what gets my goat even more are the plethora of writers without any hunting experience. I think I am going to vomit the next time I read about a guy on his first caribou hunt giving me advice like he is an expert. | |||
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A lot of companies are already producting MOA rifles right out of the box. Sako, Tikka, Savage and Remintgon all make the grade. Winchester lags behind, and Browning is spotty. I agree with Bod that those that are falling behind should improve themselves. But it is really not necessary to make every rifle at Wal Mart into a benchrest gun since a lot of the guys at the shooting range cannot even hit a 12" x 12" target at 100 yards. Yet there is another dimension to all of this. Boddington is a very prolific writer, producing 3-4 articles a month and a book per year. HE NEEDS SOMETHING TO WRITE ABOUT! This article probably filled in between some interesting ones he thought of doing. | |||
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Boddington has written far too long and is grasping for straws. The Steyr-Mannlichers of 1968-1996 vintage could do half an MOA out of the box, but production costs drove them off the market. If I can get one MOA out of a factory rifle today I am happy, and that still means plenty of big game accuracy to 400 yards, and how many of us really shoot past 300 anyway? (Okay, I'll allow for varmint hunting, but those rifles are usually fine tuned anyway.) LLS  | |||
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Seems to me that the important consideration is where the first bullet goes. I have always thought that it is much more important to have a gun that shoots to the same point of impact today as it did yesterday and will next week or next year. Some of my favorite hunting rifles are really only 1.5 MOA rifles, but that group lands in the same place on the target every time. What good does it do us to have a rifle that will consistently throw 1/2 MOA groups if the zero wanders all over the paper? We didn't inherit the land from our fathers, we're borrowing it from our children. | |||
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WOW! Didn't mean for this to become a pi$$ing contest. My interest in posting this thread was that Boddington seemed to be saying "We should raise the bar!" Now I want my rifles to be more accurate than I am for a lot of reasons, but I know that it won't matter to the deer this season. For my varmit guns, well there I am a bit more picky. | |||
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What I have noticed is with most folks, when their rifle shoots a one inch group one time its forever a MOA rifle.... A real MOA rifle will shoot a 1" group every time, and those are rare rifles indeed..the rest is BS......... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Standing ovation here sir!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Interesting thought. In my case, it is usually much more dependent on ME on any given day at the range. For example, yesterday I was at the range with two of my rifles that are generally accurate (right at 1 MOA). One is a Rem. 700 in .35 Whelen and the other a Win. Stainless M70 in .30-06 that has been accurized by Hill Country Rifles. Now yesterday, it was warm, around 85 degrees, but calm. In spite of my efforts, the best I could do was about 1 1/2 inches with the .35 and about 1 3/4 inches with the '06. I have targets from both of these rifles that have 3 shot groups of less than one inch, but I could not have proved it yesterday. I am sure it is just me, but that is the other quirk with really accurate guns, the guy behind the buttplate. Even the best guns are only as accurate as he is, on a given day. | |||
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Ray, I have to disagree.... I think there are far more Minute of Angle rifles by your definition than there are minute of angle shooters, to shoot them...I place more faith in the rifles and their quality than I do the shooters and their quality.... I don't compare with the mileage under your belt, but that is my observation after a year or two out there.... cheers seafire  | |||
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Ask Ross Seyfried.  You still read Guns & Ammo? | |||
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I USED to have Seiko with a Mickey Mouse dial. | |||
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I agree w/ Seafire, There are many more MOA rifles than there are MOA shooters. For instance, I can let some of my hunting friends shoot one of my rifles that consistently prints 1/2" groups and they will shoot groups in the 1.5" range. Does that mean the rifle is not a 1/2" shooter? Don't think so. Reloader | |||
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1" groups at 100yards do not normaly = 3" groups at 300 yrds. Ask any target shot. We have medium distance rifles 3-600m and long range rifles 800&900m. A decent long range rifle that will hold moa at 900m will often not do better than 2moa at 100. Half this forum are going to scream BS. Before you do, go and talk to the long range target boys and walk outside one night and fire a tracer round straight up. It starts off in a spiral which gets tighter... A .375 300grn bullet will penetrate alot further in a wooden baffel box at 50 yrds than at 10 - the bullet has begun to stabilise. A springy action like the Lee enfield always out shoots a mauser (with equal ammo) at long range and always looses to the mauser at short range. My 2 million zim Dollars worth? I like a rifle to shoot better than me. This is not as important as absolute reliability and nowhere near as important as not loosing it's zero after bouncing along in the back of the truck for a week, but it is still very nice to have, and confidence in ones equipment gives success. | |||
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That is the truth if I ever heard it. I could not have said it any better perfect. I know several rifles bone stock that will shoot minute of angle everytime but know shooters who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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_______________________________________________ Well said! For me 2 MOA is plenty good for field use unless you're a varmint hunter, which I'm not. The pie plate test is generally sufficient for deer and up. I train from field positions and don't use a benchrest very often unless dialing-in a scope or my irons. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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I quit buying gun magazines because I simply felt the writers were disonest. I'd like one writer to have the gumption to say a particular rifle is a piece of garbage, any writer, any rifle. They are not all great looking, super accurate, masterpieces until they reach the hands of the grubby writer. When you can logically explain to me why the most accurate rifles in my gun cabinet are all from the '70s and '80s I'll take the advertisements and writers seriously, not before. It's all about greed isn't it? Put a cheap piece of wood on it, better yet plastic, make the barrels ever thinner, get a greenhorn to put it all together, who in hell needs craftsmen or better yet gunsmiths. Can anyone tell me why I have to shell out an extra $250. to have every new rifle glass bedded, barrel floated and trigger work done to make it shoot like my older rifles from the '80s? We're getting screwed alright, and most of us just accept it like sheep. Man, this topic really hit on a sore point. Sorry for the rant. Best wishes. Cal - Montreal Cal Sibley | |||
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I must admit that I'm spoiled when it comes to MOA, I own Model 70s (Classic and Pre-64s) Weatherbys and Browning Safari grades and two Rugers MK-IIs (416 Rigby and 35 Wheelen). All but one, the M-77 MKII in 35 Wheelen are well under MOA and the Wheelen right at 1.25". I took my best bear with the Wheelen, but frankly the 1" MOA is my standard. Maybe Craig's on to something. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I am after much better than 1 MOA out of my hunting rifls, but that's me. I'm find only accurate rifles interesting (a quote from, I think, the late Col Townsend Whelan). However, much hunting has been done by very experienced hunters and riflemen who could not guarantee that their rifles would ALWAYS shoot 1 MOA. They usually came home with their hunting licences and their freezers filled. Whilst a very accurate rifle gives a hunter great confidence in it, a successful hunt will depend much more on bush craft and stalking skils, not to mention their riflemanship, than whether their rifles shoots 0.5 MOA or 1.5 MOA. Cheers & God bless, Magnum308 Only accurate rifles are interesting | |||
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I know of only a few fools who frequent this Board that believe "accuracy isn't all that important". Otherwise, I've NEVER heard of anyone complaining about a rifle being too accurate. If any of you folks who think having the factories (and the GunSmiths as well) strive to produce more accurate rifles is a "bad thing", I sure would be interested in "WHY" you think that way. Do you also believe going past the Second Grade is a waste of time? I guess you support Ebonics too. | |||
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I don't think the current bar is 1 MOA. I think only Weatherby has said they will meet any bar and that is 1.5 MOA. All the manufacturers make some rifles which are MOA but it's the luck of the draw. Try taking one back that shoots 2.5 MOA and see what kind of dumb looks you get. Unfortunately economics will enter into this. I'm sure it is more expensive to make a .75 MOA rifle than a 1.5 MOA one. I don’t want to go broke buying a rifle, the sport of hunting is expensive enough already. The current manufactures have more problems with their products then just accuratecy. If a manufacturer could get to consistent 1 MOA maybe they could put a guarantee on it so the occasional bummer is not just a shaft job for the one unlucky enough to pick it up. Once they reach 1 MOA I would prefer they’d make the rifle ready to shoot out of the box without a trip to the gunsmith to fix the feeding mechanism and trigger. These 2 items are commonly wrong. Once those goals are met maybe they could try to make it less than 1 MOA. | |||
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Hot Core
I beg to differ with you. One, I do no consider myself a fool. Two, I like rifles that shoot tiny groups just as much as the next guy. Three, I prefer rifles that shoot consistant groups to the same place. Point in fact. I had a nice 30-06 butlt up on a commercial FN Mauser action. The piece of walnut was absolutely gorgeous. After getting the rifle sighted in with a serious hunting load, the first group was .375". After cooling down, the next group was even smaller, but located about six inches away from the first group. To make a long a sad story short, ther rifle would give great groups, but it was inconsistant as hell. In fact, the worst I'd ever seen. It was rebedded twice, glass bedded a couple of times, new scopes trie to no avail. Finally, I said to hell with it, bought a McMillan classic synthetic stock, glass bedded it and went out to see how it would shoot. The rifle now only does 1.25", but it is a consistant 1.25" and that is at it's worst. Most of the time groups nudge the one inch mark. I know to some, that would never be acceptable. Frankly, I don't give a damn! I know that rifle will perform as expected and is accurate enough that I can take any game animal I want at the ranges I'm comfortable shooting. I have several rifles that will outshoot that old 06 for accuracy, and I have a few that won't come close. (YET!) I used to read in the gun rags where John Q. Gunwriter got 0.5" accuracy from the Remchester .292 Tornado at 500 yards. So, I dutifully ran out and bought the .292 Tornado, figuring all my accuracy problem would now be gone. Big surprise at the range when it didn't come close. After sevral such happenings, I wrote the gun rag asking why my results didn't come anywhere near what the writer got? The answer was that John Q. Gunwriter has been shooting for many years and has learned every trick there is to wring out the best accuracy from a rifle. Let's see here. I was, at the time, almost 20 years older than the writer in question, so have a minimum of ten years more bench time that said writer. The editor of that gun rag never responded to that fact when I told him I was already shootin guns while he was still sucking on mama's tit! Either the writers were getting tuned up rifles or they were shooting those targets from a much closer range and saying it was 100 yards. My guess is they were just liars. Paul B. | |||
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Given two rifles of reasonably similar features, one guaranteed to shoot 1/2" groups and one guaranteed to shoot 1" groups and the one with the better accuracy warranty was double the price, I'd buy the one with the lesser accuracy warranty. BTW...what rifle company warrantees 1 MOA accuracy today??? Some of you that buy custom rifles.....does your smith warranty 1 MOA????? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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A consistant 1.5 inch deer rifle is plenty accurate enough. The last time I looked the deer hadn't shrunk, the vital area is as big as ever. | |||
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I know of only a few fools who frequent this Board that believe "accuracy isn't all that important". Otherwise, [/QUOTE] Wow! No wonder you think that scout style rifles are only good for tomatoe stakes! Keep stiren HC.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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H-S Precision guarantees 3 shots in .5" @ 100yd for calibers up to and including .30, 1" for larger. In my limited experience (one 7mm-08 pistol), they deliver.
It would seem so. | |||
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I like Craig, I think he is the best gun writer still in the craft today. But I don't understand why he gives marketing support to Surefire, Dakota, Rigby, and Swarovski. I wouldn't want to be tied to a brand, especially if I lived in Paso Robes and had Weatherby as a neighbor. I would hope that I was as neutral as I could be. It's hard to say that since I am not in Craigs position. There are a lot of gun writers that are not worth their salt writing today. So it pisses me off when Craig who's a great writer is doing product endorsements. I don't remember Elmer Kieth or Jack O'Conner doing the same. | |||
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Maybe we should ask Craig? I do want to say one thing. Craig isn't responsable to us. We buy magazines that he writes in, and we buy rifles, scopes, hunts, and flashlights he writes about. But I don't remember anywhere where Craig Boddington had to sign anything that said he was acountable for what he wrote or did in the hunting world. The only person who is responsable for what we do is us! | |||
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D99 said,
IIRC, Jack O'Connor sure did stump for the pre-64 Model 70 Winchester. I think the majority of his custom rifles were built on Model 70s. I think Elmer Keith was also pretty fond of the Model 70. Paul B. | |||
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In the good/bad old days the standard was ten shot groups, not even fives. With national match ammunition the NM and NRA sporter Springfield 1903s would easily shoot 3" ten shot groups at 200 yards from machine rest. The heavy Type Ts were close to 2". I am skeptical that any of our so-called half minute rifles would do much better. The first rifle that Townsend Whelen owned that shoot into a minute of angle for ten shots was a Savage 99 with Niedner barrel and Griffin & Howe stocks, this was in 1922. That rifle now belongs to the Rifled Arms Historical Association, it was obtained a few years ago from Creighton Audette who was given it by Whelen. Russell Gilmore has recently shot it from rest with a 5X scope (Belding & Mull) and on his first attempt got five shots into 1 1/2" at 40 rods, i.e., 220 yards. Says he will frame the group and not shoot the rifle again. | |||
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I want my varmint rigs to be under 1" at 100 yards 5 shot groups. With all other rifle applications it depends on the intended purpose. | |||
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We have to dig up a five year old thread to say that? | |||
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OOPS .......didn't realize the date. I guess if the dating offends you .....don't read it!!!!!!! | |||
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 Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Rasie the bar as much as you like, but until shooters / hunters practice and take out a whole load of variables created by themselves, the majority of shooters / hunters will never be able to take advantage of the rifles better accuracy. That's not to say it's not a good thing that rifles are more accurate than they used to be, and have less faulty rifles but the people need to step up as well. . | |||
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The effects of varying amounts of windrift and/or human error, could take it outside the zone, an .5moa rifle might better help keep the bullet in the vital zone. | |||
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Exactly. It's hard to hit stuff at/over 300 yards without an adequate rest and a consideration for the wind. Our success in varmint hunting is due to the bench type portable rests from MTM that we use on the tailgate or hood of the truck. With those rests and on a calm day a good .5" rifle and make the difference on those very long shots. All the accuracy is a great help and I'll take those one hole groupers all the time. We made some 400-500 yard shots on some rockchucks this last spring that would not have been possible without some good shooters. | |||
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Interesting thread. The .30-.30 has, I suspect, dispatched more deer than any other calibre, maybe more than all other calibres combined. Who here has seen, or heard of, an MOA .30-.30? Just a thought. | |||
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I guess one needs a .25moa rifle as much as they need near flawless inletting. People strive for the best accuracy like others strive for the best wood to metal fit. I kinda glad its in peoples nature to strive to improve, I prefer todays less invasive keyhole surgery techniques compared to how they used to slice you wide open for some procedures. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 1 MOA rifle no longer acceptable? (Article by Boddingon)
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