Been reloading for 30+ years and recently made the mistake of Goggling FL resizing and was promptly overwhelmed and confused by all the different versions of what persons claim to be the correct way to FL resize brass.

I have always used Lee Collet dies until it became even slightly difficult to chamber a reload and then FL resized all pieces of brass in that lot that had been fired and reloaded.

I am now a bit confused as to exactly what FL resizing does to my fired brass. Is a properly FL resizing of brass supposed to return the brass back to SAMMI spec, or only 0.002" under my rifle chambers dimensions?

Or am I getting partial FL resizing confused with FL resizing?

So for those who are master reloaders please clear this up for me as I am about to anneal and then FL resize 100 or so pieces of brass to be reloaded ASAP.

Thanks,
TMDJ/Art

I did some more research and pretty much figured out now, also discovered I had forgotten I owned a complete Stony Point Head Space gauge set as well.

Why not share with us what you've learned? I'd like to hear.

For hunting?

Exactly what the dimensions are of a "full length sized" case depends on a myriad of variables.

The first is the size and shape of the die. Although they are supposed to be sized to return a case to within the SAAMI standards for that particular cartridge, lots of "interpretations" are at work here. Some manufacturers make their dies smaller to compensate for brass springback. Others make them larger accounting for the typically oversized factory rifle chambers.

Another big variable is the thickness of the shell holder head. If you simply set the sizing die so that the shell holder head jams hard against the bottom of the die you may be reducing the base-shoulder dimension well below SAMMI specs simply because the thickness of the shell holder lip may be too thin for the way the die is cut, thus allowing the case to enter the die too far. Or, the opposite can occur with a shellholder with too thick lips (for a particular FL die).

I've even found dies which are largely incompatible with chambers -- they are too narrow at the shoulders, thus pushing the shoulder forward as the case is squeezed into the die and making the base-shoulder dimension longer than that of the chamber. It is impossible to "partial full length size" with such a die/chamber combination, so the die has to be set to push back the shoulder that it has just pushed forward -- all resulting in an undersized case compared to the chamber and excessive work hardening of the case brass.

Bottom line: When using FL dies you should set your sizing die so that the sized cartridge case enters the chamber and the bolt closes without undue resistance. Sizing any further is counterproductive. If you are attempting to resize fired cases so that they will work in ANY chamber, then you have to get them down to at least SAAMI maximum, which will require measuring several dimensions and may not be readily achievable with every FL sizing die.

Buy the Redding shellholder kit.

How is your FL die set up? The proper way is to run the ram with the shell holder all the way to the top. Then thread your die down until it touches the shell holder. Retract the ram and screw the die in an additional 1/4 turn. Now then, lube a fired case and run it into the die all the way. If there is any space showing between the die and the shell holder, then turn the die in another 1/4 turn. By over threading the die, you're taking out any play in the press. Once you've done this, if the re-sized case fits readidly into the chamber, you can forget your thingies and .0000002.5 measurments. You're good to go. And can use you neck die for the next resizing.

Vapo, good advice but only if Reloading for one gun and one headspacing. Otherwise I would buy the Redding shellholder kit.

The Redding shellholder kit also allows fine tuned headspacing for one gun when contact, then 1/4 turn in as you recommend.

If you've been reloading SATISFACTORILY, for 30 years I wouldn't get too worried about what is being said...forums are as full of bull pucky as a Texas stock yard or Liers convention and EVERYONE whether they've bee reloading for 60 years or 60 seconds is an expert.

Read all the new stuff and try what you think might help you...there has been a tremendous amount of innovation in those 30 years...lots of new and better tools and components and experimentation on new ways to think about reloading and how to achieve higher accuracy.

I started with a set of Lee dies and a Lyman 'Nutcracker" and killed everything I pointed at with those reloads and all that I DIDN'T know back then never hurt me a bit. All these years later I'm STILL using some of those tools with the additional ways of getting ALMOST the same accuracy as I do with some of my very expensive bits and pieces...and STILL killing everything I point at...maybe a little farther out.

All the posters have excellent information to use so "Try it, you'll like it".

Good Hunting

forster full length sizing die, redding competition shell holders and cartridge headspace gauge. adjust die to jam the shell holder with the proper thickness shell holder and do not set shoulder back for more than .002 of your chambers headspace. same with belted magnum cases.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
If you've been reloading SATISFACTORILY, for 30 years I wouldn't get too worried about what is being said...forums are as full of bull pucky as a Texas stock yard or Liers convention and EVERYONE whether they've bee reloading for 60 years or 60 seconds is an expert.

What if you want to reload for the 303 British?

What is your standard for a 3 shot hunting group?

How much brass do you go through?

Nothing is being said, I am typing.

in the forster die the expander starts into the neck before the cartridge neck clears the neck sizing portion of the die and this reduces or eliminates bending of the neck.

Full length with a little shoulder bump

.003 / .005

Going all the way until the shell holder hits the die is generaly not how the above happens

I have Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Redding bushing and C4HD dies

I used to follow the traditional FL sizing method I learned 25 years ago. I used to push the handle down fully and the ram & shell holder at its top most position. Screw in the FL die flush on the shell holder. Lower the ram just a bit and screw in the die another quarter turn and tighten the lock nut.

Now lube the case evenly taking care to cover the bottom web of the case as well as the shoulder and neck and not too much lube.

Push the case into die until the shell holder hits the bottom of the die.

This is the method described in many reloading manuals in those days.

What I do now is partial FL size but technically it is FL sizing.

Sounds ambiguous? Yes

I use the Hornady head space tool - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCxQJZ376gY

When screwing in the FL die I do not screw it in fully to the shell holder but back it off just a tiny bit. I then use the Hornady gauge and measure a once-fired case to get the exact dimensions of that particular rifle's chamber shoulder.

I then adjust the die to get the exact dimensions from a sized case. I lock the die in place. I then size every case to match those dimensions and get a Full length sized case that exactly fits the chamber every single time.

As all my dies are for just one rifle in each caliber, I just lock the setting in place and do not change it ever again. Each time I reload I just use the Hornady tool to check a few cases to make sure. The accuracy of the ammo I product is far more consistent now.

Technically you could call that a partial FL sizing.

Who cares!

Not quite sure what you've said, AR...I reload my 303 the same way I reload pretty much all my other calibers...My "Hunting loads" are less than 0.500" or one caliber or things start changing...I CAN'T hold that any more but the rifle WILL be capable of it anyway....and most of my brass go a minimum of 25 reloads INCLUDING belted and Lapua/Rigby size.

I didn't even begin to approach this level when I first started out reloading but over time I learned "what-the-he**-and why"...pretty much the hard way and all that "secret" info is available online now...too many flapping tongues. Just like sex...in the old days it was hidden...today it's like sand on the beach...EVERYWHERE, no mystique, gets into everything and just as scratchy.

Good Hunting

Non,

Thanks for the reply. My standard is 0.5" 3 shot group as well.

I believe in the Redding body die instead of partial full length sizing or bumping the shoulder. Sometimes lock screws loosen on dies or o-rings aren't as consistent as one might want.

The Redding shellholder kit is an essential kit in my opinion. The reason why I brought up the 303 British is because headspacing averages about 0.005" in the war rifles and the standard should be 0.002". The Redding shellholder kit achieves 0.002" easily, precisely and most important, consistently.

I like to use the Redding body die with the Lee Deluxe collet neck sizing die. Very cheap, very accurate and saves brass. Also more precise than partial full length sizing.

I don't recommend lubricating the neck or shoulder. That can V brass sometimes if too much lube is used. Just lubricant to the body is sufficient.

Even the cheap Lee red full length sizing die has a tapered expander button to eliminate neck shifting or miss-matched runout.

The don't call this the "Accurate reloading website" for nothing.
Thanks a great deal for the replies so far. I would LOVE to get a Redding body die as I have them for EVERY bottle neck cartridge I reload for, but much to my bitter sorrow Redding doesn't make on for 35 Remington. I also own a Redding shell holder kit for all my rifles EXCEPT my 35 Remingtons, but will get one.

I'm going to print this page out and use it to resize my brass.

FWIW I remembered I had a full set of SP head space gauges and researched how to use them to determine how I need to set up my FL sizing die to bump back my brass 0.002-0.003". The rifle is a JM stamped Marlin 336c.

Again thanks a great deal educating me.

TMD,

I don't know if Redding offers a custom build option for your 35 Remington such as Lee offers for a few dollars. They might.

You could always turn your 35 Remington into a 350 Magnum!!

You must have a commercial 303, AR...all the SMLE 303's I've ever dealt with needed a bolt head change or a THICK Redding shell holder, on the order of 0.015" +/- half that...0.005"...I wouldn't even bother. Look at the SAAMI specs or Military specs for the generous, allowable headspace gapitis.


The problem ISN'T the headspace per se in my SMLE's, it's the oversized chambers that produce way too much brass working during the cycle...the brass cracks or separates from overworking BEFORE the slight shoulder sizing causes the redazz...and the fact that most reloaders NEVER match their sizing dies to the rifles chamber.

I've found that there is a 10/90 rule in many areas of endeavor...10% hard work will get you 90% of the way, THEN it takes 90% more HARDER work to get you that extra 10%...and many spend their time trying to get that extra 10% that doesn't really mean anything anyway.

There are several good "benchrest" reloading/Accurate Rifle/How to books/DVD's out that cover every aspect completely, not piecemeal.

I learned most of my "tricks" from bench resting way back in the day and I pretty much follow those "rules" today...This is where that 10/90 comes in...10% hard work, measuring, sorting, optimizing the rifle system etc, gives you 90% of the rifles accuracy potential...that last 10% is where the boys get separated out...they don't want to do whats required and it's not needed to poke a once a year deer, or even a rat way out there.

Good Hunting

Yes you are correct concerning the SMLE chamber, thanks.

I actually don't handload for the 303 British, it is my Father's rifle.

I use the Redding Competition shell holders, or at least I do on every caliber that I can cover with three sets. They even allow the use of the same dies for rifles of the same caliber without adjusting,

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I use the Redding Competition shell holders, or at least I do on every caliber that I can cover with three sets. They even allow the use of the same dies for rifles of the same caliber without adjusting,

Yes agreed.

Once you get the die in place, 1/4 turn past ram maximum
Extension, you rely on shellholder's to fine tune headspacing. Dies can be locked down.

Ted if you were commenting on my reply the comp shell holders come in .002 incremental thicknesses enabling you to jam the shell holder against the die and set the shoulder back the desired amount.

I bump the shoulder back .002; allows rounds to be chambered easily and extends case life. Bumping them back too far and you end up trimming a lot and eventually start to see the case head separation ring.

One die is as good as another, Reddings are very good quality, so is RCBS and Forrester for instance..Its knowing whatcha are doing..

Every chamber is difference so going by thousands is a waste of time...Reload to a bump will usually work on any gun that passed inspection at the factory..

All my rounds are custom fitted to my particular gun for accuracy purposes..I back the die off a good bit, and resize a smoked case down a tad at a time until it fits in my rifles chamber, then back off just a tad and call it good..Partial resizeing to fit the chamber or neck sizing is the other word accepted..If I want full length I screw the die down until I get a bump to the shoulder junction on a new case. I do use full length resizing for DG and expensive hunts as function is first and foremost, and I try them for feeding and accuracy..In fact for a hunt I use new brass 90% of the time, and the other 10% is only once fired.

Its not complicated it just sounds like it, please its not rocket science..Whenb all else fails read the directions that come with every die set as to full length resizing.

The main thing is do not over work your brass or it won't last very long..

Ray

Your suggestion (the red bit below) will result in your case shoulder being pushed forward and a tight fit in the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
....

All my rounds are custom fitted to my particular gun for accuracy purposes..I back the die off a good bit, and resize a smoked case down a tad at a time until it fits in my rifles chamber, then back off just a tad and call it good. ........

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Brousseau:
Ted if you were commenting on my reply the comp shell holders come in .002 incremental thicknesses enabling you to jam the shell holder against the die and set the shoulder back the desired amount.

You must know what your shoulder measures before sized vs after sized at the shoulder datum.

Most hand loaders don't check this....they just guess

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Brousseau:
Ted if you were commenting on my reply the comp shell holders come in .002 incremental thicknesses enabling you to jam the shell holder against the die and set the shoulder back the desired amount.

You must know what your shoulder measures before sized vs after sized at the shoulder datum.

Most hand loaders don't check this....they just guess

Not necessarily. If you use the Competition Shellholders you can confidently know you are sizing back .002 or .004 or nothing back without ever knowing or caring what the measurement is. Besides, the tool measures to a datum line that is arbitrary not necessarily where the case contacts the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Brousseau:
Ted if you were commenting on my reply the comp shell holders come in .002 incremental thicknesses enabling you to jam the shell holder against the die and set the shoulder back the desired amount.

You must know what your shoulder measures before sized vs after sized at the shoulder datum.

Most hand loaders don't check this....they just guess

Not necessarily. If you use the Competition Shellholders you can confidently know you are sizing back .002 or .004 or nothing back without ever knowing or caring what the measurement is. Besides, the tool measures to a datum line that is arbitrary not necessarily where the case contacts the chamber.

As I suspected as most hand loaders do not know how to measure brass.....most guess.

I can pick up a loaded round or a resized case and with my calipers and one of my datum gauges I can tell if its is long, short or anything in between.

But in reality and to be honest.......I couldn't care less how anybody else loads

I mostly neck size now but when I do FL size, I just set it up per the die manufacturers instructions. I figure they know better than the internet experts anyway. Never had problem doing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCxQJZ376gY

Why not just use this and know for certain?

Why all this pissing around?

Good Lord, how were we ever able to reload ammo using a Lee Loader?
Some folks reload to shoot; some folks shoot to reload. Neither is wrong; neither is right.

Wanting to achieve 1/2 MOA can't be wrong.

My current favorite way to FL size is with a die made from a grade 8 bolt cut with a resize reamer ordered with the chamber reamer. The reamer pair takes care of all the various dimensions and I get a load that fits the chamber just right and doesn't over work the brass.

$0.02

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Wanting to achieve 1/2 MOA can't be wrong.

It depends on what cost. And too, if you're a competitive rifle shooter, then your .5MOA will be laughed at. If you're interesting in killing something, then your .5MOA is (pardon the pun) overkill.
If you're sacrificing hunting time or shooting time whilst chasing the holy grail, then the cost is too high IMO.
I do believe that if more folks spent more time shooting and practicing, instead of dicking around with their thingies and worrying whether they should have a .002 or a .004 jump to the lands, they'd be much better shooters.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Wanting to achieve 1/2 MOA can't be wrong.

It depends on what cost. And too, if you're a competitive rifle shooter, then your .5MOA will be laughed at. If you're interesting in killing something, then your .5MOA is (pardon the pun) overkill.
If you're sacrificing hunting time or shooting time whilst chasing the holy grail, then the cost is too high IMO.
I do believe that if more folks spent more time shooting and practicing, instead of dicking around with their thingies and worrying whether they should have a .002 or a .004 jump to the lands, they'd be much better shooters.

Lots of truth there. I'll add that compromising on bullet performance to shave a bit off groups isn't much of a plan in a hunting rifle.

I have been reloading for hunting rifles for about 24 years. Not high volume but keen enough to do very detailed load development for a few wildcats, measuring case head expansion etc.

In the early days I used to load ammo with bullets close to the lands, touching the lands etc so that I could get good accuracy. Yes i got some good groups with a few rifles but then I got into trouble with blown primers in the original Barnes X bullets.

Over the years I learned that concentric ammo was a more important factor in determining accuracy. Therefore sizing cases to fit the chamber is very important.

I also found that seating hunting ammo 30 thou off lands still gave me 1 inch 5 shot groups with most of my rifles.

Here are the key conclusions I have come to

1 The bullet is the 1st key - it either likes the barrel or it does not. Some bullets will not shoot accurately in a particular rifle.
2 If a bullet can give me 2 inches or less group with random loads, I can get it to do better - 1,5 inch groups or less at 100 meters
3 A correctly sized case to match the chamber - partial FL is my preference - produced concentric ammo with minimal run out. (Note - ammo wobble over 15 thoug can be seen with naked eye)
4 As already stated, using the Hornady gauge has made life a lot easier and my ammo a lot more uniform & consistent in the last 6 to 8 years.

Not so Nakihunter, your getting to technical, once your marked case allows you to close the bolt, its stiff and rather hard to close, so you take a quarter turn on the die and it will have ever so slightly allow the shoulder to mark the case and allow you to close the bolt easy as one would want with a DG rifle..your still making 80% to 90% contact. I might go with your post on bench rest shooting, but never hunting..maybe on a varmint hunt wherein I don't mind if a round won't chamber on occasion...Perhaps I should have cleared that up on my post, but didn't think explanation would be necessary..