The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Elmer Keith: Why didn’t he ever write about / use the 9.3 x 62?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Elmer Keith: Why didn’t he ever write about / use the 9.3 x 62? | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Not sure where to put this. It’s just my observation- not based on specific research... In reading most of Elmer Keith’s books and articles on big game hunting, I don’t recall him referencing or mentioning the 1905-designed cartridge ( by Otto Bock). : the 9.3x62 mm . Keith wrote about the 35 Whelan, 333 OKH, 338 Win mag, 375 H&H, 400 Whelan, 458 Win mag, 470, 500 calibers, 280 and 300 mags / Hoffman’s, but never the 9.3x62. It was certainly around during his hunting/writing years. Was it just not that popular in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s? Seems like he would’ve LOVED the 9.3x62, and be a favored elk round for him. Anyone care to toss in their thoughts why Elmer never mentioned/ used the 9.3 x 62? -------------------------------------------------------- Behavior accepted, is behavior repeated. | ||
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| One of Us |
maybe lack of ammo/ bullets at that time? If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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One of Us |
Even in the 1960s, when I became interested in these things, I suspect the 9.3x62 was a reasonably rare bird in the Anglosphere. I knew it was the African workhorse and one of 21 calibres FN chambered in its elegant Mauser sporter - but that's all. Elmer liked to experiment with cartridges but usually used donor cases and bore sizes available nearby. In both metric and imperial measures 9.3 may have sounded a bit off-beat for American barrel makers. Perhaps for a westerner, maybe it was neither one thing or another in his book: not flat-shooting enough for cross-canyon shots; not quite heavy enough for woods and big, close-up bears. Also, while it is a high-pressure load these days, some of the old tropical loads were a bit ho-hum. Considering Elmer's steamy duplex loads in the 333 OKH etc, maybe he thought .30-06-based cartridges were just as good. | |||
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| One of Us |
it wouldn't have been bullets he was getting odd diameters for his other stuff. IMO it was too close to the 35 whelen, and possibly the velocity's just weren't that impressive back then. plus it was German. good luck getting a group of people that just got shot by another group of people to even consider buying anything gun related from the other country. | |||
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At the time it was definitely un-American. | |||
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I am not surprised. Ken Waters and other well known writers never mentioned it. Even as recently as 1990, 366 cal bullets were not common among American bullet makers. Speer probably made the 270 gr bullet. Norma & RWS would have been the most common European bullets in the US before that. Some years later Nosler came out with the 250 gr green Balistic tip and then changed it to the Accubond. They also made a 286gr Partition. Companies like Swift, Hornady etc started making bullets in this caliber only in the last 15 years or later. I am not sure if the average American rifle manufacturers offered the caliber in their standard models. If you look at the historical archives here on AR you will find few people knew much about it around 2008! I bought my pre 1912 Simson around 2000 and got into developing loads and collecting info such as articles and loads. I have shared that info with over 30 people here on AR and have always been surprised how uncommon the caliber was in the US. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
The first time I ever used one was about 1987 when the magazine I worked on got a new Sako Hunter in that calibre to test. (I had no problems with the calibre but by some paralysis of the intellect Sako had moved the bolt's gas port to bleed into the left lug runway, which pointed straight at the shooter's face - still unprotected by the skimpy boltshroud. I mentioned this in my review but the boss, worried about losing our best advertiser, scrubbed the five paragraphs concerned. Happily, I noticed the gas port had been moved back to the r/h side next time I saw one of those rifles, but I've never taken magazine reviews seriously since.) | |||
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| one of us |
It was not even thought of Elmer tried the 35 Whelen and it failed him in Alaska on bears and he changed to .333 with 300 grain bullets then changed to .338 when it was standardized instead of the .333.Osa Johnson used the 9.3x62 and loved it .Elmer wanted long range rifles with lots of power .His long range rifle was the 338-378 weatherby which is like the 338 lapua in power but shot a 250 grain bullet 3000 fps.His old 334okh became the 340 weatherby and the 333 okh belted mag became the 338 win mag the 333 okh became the 338-06.The 9.3 mm was not popular here at All in Elmers time .He liked the 375 h&k then liked the big couple rifles too . | |||
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one of us |
The 8X57 probably never caught on here for the same reasoning. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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one of us |
He loved the .35 Whelen, and there's not an iota of difference between the Whelen and the 9,3x62. He certainly gave the other metric calibers praise (for their appropriate game), like the 6,5x54 M-S, 7x57 and even 8x57, so I'd guess that between the US widespread popularity at the time for the .35 Whelen and the lack of significant presence in the US at the time with the 9,3x62, he would probably have said something like: "Probably a great round, because it's just like the Whelen." | |||
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 I fail to see how it is possible for that cartridge or rifle to fail Elmer. Either he did something improper or wasn't using the right ammo ! JMHO  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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In that class of cartridges, Elmer was a .375 H&H guy all the way. Read his book, 'Big Game Rifles & Cartridges.' Yeah, it suffers from a mediocre writing style, but it's still quite informative once you've fought your way past Elmo's clunky prose to discern what the old coot is actually trying to tell you. Elmer definitely ain't Ernest H., but the book is still worth the read. All The Best ... | |||
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One of Us |
9.3mm was practically unknown in the US at that time. But the 35 caliber was used back to at least the 35 Winchester before 1900. As for any caliber failing, then, it was due entirely to the lack of good bullets for whatever purpose it was used for. I grew up reading Elmer, and still follow his guidance. | |||
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I think it was a matter of Americans being anti-metric. Look at Eisenhower's failed attempt to teach Americans metrics. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| one of us |
The question begs: but was the 9,3x62 popular anywhere else ? If Americans did not really have a connection with metrics and specifically the 9.3x62 did anyone else ? I grew up in South Africa and was for most of my conscious life something of a gun nut and I can say that no the 9.3x62 was not that numerous in number nor known or even popular ! Based on finite numbers of guns built by Mauser and later other commercial makers and specifically ammo sold it did not make the top 10 list for the longest time. It seeming rise popularity was for most a "modern" event. Like many other cartridges , especially of British origin more guns custom or otherwise were built, ammo loaded or sold post heyday of the African Safari than during the short lived "african hunting golden era". We tend to forget that modern smokeless is a relatively new invention, Further this the rise and fall of colonial rule in Africa is shorter still. The tenure in which use could have occurred is very short ! Rhodesia which by any estimate saw likely the greatest use of the 9.3x62 was in terms of timeline and population a mere blip on a calendar ! | |||
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| One of Us |
The 9.3X62 was a German development & was more common in German East Africa - Tanganyika - now Tanzania. It quickly spread in popularity to Kenya and other East African countries. It was particularly popular with farmers and similar average folks for meat hunting and protection against predators like lions. The rifles of that day were far less expensive than the British sporters & DRs. The most popular calibers in Africa for bolt rifles before 1945 were the 8X57 & 303 British (both were military calibers). This was followed later by the 7X57 - also a military caliber. South Africa would have seen plenty of the 8X57, 303 British & 7X57. I suspect that Rhodesia (North & South) along with Kenya would have seen plenty of 303 Br. Reading JA Hunter and other old white hunters, it seems that many of the British hunters in East Africa After 1905 or so were able to afford sporting rifles in sporting calibers like 318 WR, 404 Jeffery, 350 Rigby and many others including the BP & NE doubles. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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why? because 35 whelen opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Yup. That and he was an American living in the middle of the last century. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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There's that in it. This may have extended to scopes, too. Though he did have claw mounts on one rifle, I don't remember him mentioning a European scope. He must have used them and knew their quality, though, if only because of his naming Noske's scopes "the first good American glass". | |||
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| One of Us |
Was any US company making a 0.366" bullet in the inter-war years? | |||
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| one of us |
Osa johnson was the only famous person I have found using it .She used it in the 1920s-37 in Africa .She liked the 405 Winchester better for rhinos and lions .There is someone that bought her rifle who is on 35hourcampfire.Elmer almost got eaten up shooting that coastal best with the 35 whelen he liked the 400 Whelen better but had troubles with headspace .He jumped that coastal grizzly which was almost on top of him and he emptied his 35 whelen on it and it.almost got him after that he liked the 333okh belted mag then the 338 win mag for Alaska then even bigger the 338-378kt which is equal to the 338 lapua. HE was always making bigger and better rifles .I have his 333okh belted mag it's half way between a 338-06 and a 338 win mag he liked 300 grain.bullets in it .He had lots of bullet failure in those early days when he made those bullets speed up they blew up .He liked nosler partitions when they came out bad Barnes bonded core bullets .I have a bunch of his bonded 300-grain.Barnes bullets Fred Barnes made for his .333 okh belted mag.He made the 334okh after that which is close to the 340 weatherby mag.He was really into.long range hunting .He had a 285okh that was close to the 7mm set.He was awesome way ahead of his time ! | |||
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He lived through the war, I bet he wanted nothing to do with anything of German invention. | |||
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| One of Us |
Not the 9.3 x 62 but in his June 1969 article in Gun Notes, Elmer discusses the 9.3x74R and says "One of the finest rimmed cartridges for all our American game is the German 9.3x74R." | |||
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He was too proud. | |||
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| One of Us |
"Whelan"???? I don't get you 9.63x62 fanboys at all... Sure, who needs any rationale to buy another rifle, but aside from the "5 instead of 3 (or 2) in the magazine" and the "it's legal for Big 5", where's the attraction? Maybe in the 10yrs, (or is it 15?), that this ctg has been building a following; maybe there are more bullets available? But so what? Buy one of these and then you gotta go to the Dark Continent because you paid some dough? Almost any other bore has a better bullet selection. Probably even more .319s out there than 9.63s. Maybe more .266/7s? Then there are the 7.65s. Still no reason to own one, unless you get nostalgic or are willed a Wesley Richards Best Grade so chambered. Not like producing a round at Harry's Kenya will get you a free martini. Keith? Why sully his name with your wonderings? There was the .333 OKH back then, and he was the K... He also liked double rifles... Can't even spell Whelen correctly... You slovenly rifleman... Were it not for some silly mystique you fanboys all seem to subscribe to, you might have considered a .375 Whelen... Least ways you'd have a greatly improved bullet selection; but oh wait! No correct headstamp at affordable prices!!! Have fun with your hobby horses, but I suspect Keith is bemused by the crowd that favors this round over so many much more capable and available rifles and ammunition. | |||
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Damn sure reeled me in. If anyone feels the need, I have a nice package (rifle, scope , dies , brass & bullets) for sale . Very accurate, even by my anal accuracy requirment/needs ! | |||
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One of Us |
He must have been an extremely inept reloader to bugger up the 400 Whelen, if you have correct dies for your chamber it is foolproof. The perceived notion of the 400 having headspace problems is based more in someones head than in reality. I'll stop there, I must fully disclose I was never an Elmer Keith fan and his writing persona and opinions rubbed me the wrong way. Still do. | |||
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| one of us |
To start with the 9.3x62 loaded up to its full potential compares more to the 375 H&H than to the 35 Whelen, again internet BS keeps bringing that up by those who have not reloaded the 9.3x62 or 64 for that matter, most of which never killed a head of game with one... The 9.3x62 will push a 320 gr. bullet to near 2500 FPS in a 26 inch tube and good handloads. A 375 H&H normally shoots a 300 gr. bullet at 2500 to perhaps 2600 FPS in the real world...20 grs. of lead in favor of the 9.3 and 100 to perhaps a 150 FPS in favor of the .375 H&H. Folks that's a push anyway you look at it. The 9.3x62 was used primarily in Namibia and in German comunitees..BTW when Kenya concocted there game laws, they out of pressure from the locals and PHs, allowed the 375 Was the lightest caliber one could use on DG, BUT a add was that those that used the 9.3x62 would be allowed to continue its use..and so it has been..and even though the books in most countries call for the 375 as base caliber, the 9.3x62 has continued to be used and never has a complaint been filed on those who use it that I know of and I have researched that tidbit..The 9.3x62 is being used today in all the African countries without being challenged. I first used the 9.3x62, after being lent an old fine Mauser and shot quit a number of PG and a few DG animals with it, and like Finn Aaggard and one of his friends over the years claimed in writing, that neither of them could tell any difference in the killing effect between the 375 and the 9.3x62, and that is general consences of all the the African people I know including a large number of PHs, as well as those who have used it on this side of the world. It is what it is, so lets get it right and then carry on with facts not fiction..and as Pierre Van der Walt says the 9.3x64 is just more of the same on steroids or something on that order..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray, I respect your experience. You take care mate. I would be careful making such claims, particularly on the web.  Check 24hrcampfire & probably your old post in 2001 - https://www.24hourcampfire.com...for_the_320_gr_woodl - With a stiff charge of RL-15 and in my long 26 inch tube I can get 2407 FPS in my Brno M-21, 9.3x62...I can get 2457 FPS with a 300 gr. Swift bullet, and 2553 FPS with a 286 Nosler.. My tests with my Simson Mauser 98 & its 23 inch (585mm) barrel gave me 2215 fps with the Woodleigh 320 gr. I could have gone up another 2 grains to get max another 85 fps. 375 H&H & 24 inch barrel & 300 gr bullets shooting at more than 2650 fps is not rare - https://www.loaddata.com/Cartr...loader-Issue-97/1411 Barnes even goes up to 2766 fps! https://www.loaddata.com/Cartr...oading-Manual-4/4672 My guess is that a 375H&H & 24 inch with 300gr will shoot 350fps to 450 fps faster than a 9.3X62 & 24 inch with 320gr bullets. That is a BIG difference. The Whelan is a great elk & bear rifle that is not in the same league.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
Just found this. Sharing it https://www.tapatalk.com/topic/33382-70536 "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
No. I've another theory. American powders compared, at the time, to European powders were poor. In that the x57mm and larger bore x62mm worked perfectly with European powders but not enough American powder could be got into the case to give that same performance. Don't forget that in WWI German 7.92mm Mauser ammunition was, with the then standard 154 grain bullet, getting near on 3,000 fps out of the Gewehr 98. WITH A 57mm CASE. So, OK, it's barrel was longer than the US Sprinfield and Model of 1917. BUT THE '06 EVEN SO USED A 63mm CASE. But still not enough to narrow the velocity difference between the standard US M1906 150 grain ball at 2,700 fps and the German's 154 grain bullet at 2,950 fps. The fact is that German and European powders were better than US powders. And I suspect that with what was available at the time the European cartridges just didn't have enough internal powder capacity. | |||
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| One of Us |
As a PS to what I've written above. IMHO the second best medium bore cartridge of any is that marriage of German efficiency with American "can do" solution finding to what to do with bring back military Mausers. The 8mm-06. A better performing cartridge with weight for weight at 150 grains and above than the .30-06 and opening the reloader up to all the semi-exotic European TIG and TUG bullets in 8mm. But the best medium bore IMHO...and one of those I did have...was the German answer to the 1919 Versailles military calibre ban. The factory made 8x60S. Especially in its Magnum Bombe loading. In fact I'd rate it as the best balanced medium bore of all. Reasonable length with 2mm extra in the body over the 8x57S and 1mm extra in the neck. It out performs IN REAL WORLD USE with proper powders any of the other similar exotics like the .318 Westley Richards too. And easier to source the bullets for! | |||
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enfield, sage words indeed. The Germans were ahead of the US in cartridge, bullet and powder development from the 1880's forward until the mid to late 1920's when the US started to catch up pretty quick. I have an 8 X 60 but it is not a complete rifle yet. I am anxious to get it going. Kinda like the 45-90 over the 45-70, just more of a good thing. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6 | |||
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8x60S is just one of those cartridges that just "looks right". Like the 6mm Remington vs the .243 Winchester or the .280 Remington vs the .270 Winchester. It's just unfortunate that neither of Remington's offerings ever were able to break the market dominance of Winchester's product. Same with the .308 Norma Magnum and the .300 Winchester Magnum alas. | |||
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One of Us |
Ray, I was challenged in TZ when wanting an African rifle for my Lady. I was looking at trying to find a Tikka 9.3-62. A Ph and Game Officer said--no, get a 375. Yes, I am sure that after-the-fact we could have hunted together and both gotten a buffalo license, but the challenge had been made. Meanwhile, we found a Ruger 375Ruger Alaskan LAMINATE stock, left-hand, for under $600. Done. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| one of us |
Time line gentlemen Time line ! There are two refrains that pop up constantly ! "You can hand load a 9.3x62 to outshoot a 375 H&H " and this or that was used in "German parts of Africa " First and foremost ! Handloading: this or that was not a option when this and that cartridge were conceived, introduced and used ! You shot what was offered by way of factory load and here is the kicker! WHAT WAS OFFERED BY WAY OF FACTORY LOAD WAS REGULATED BY LAW IN TERMS OF PRESSURE ! Factories pushed the envelope to the limit of what was allowed by law and you could not claim this or that velocity it had to be verified by way of Testing by a independent body ! This applied to both GB and Europe ! So this constant refrain of my ( untested and vetted ) load outshoots your ( untested and vetted) load is moot as far as timeline at the time of inception and early use goes. The regulation of hunting at the time was done based on what was legally allowed by way of factory load ! Not by what some on the internet push as Safe loading practice ! Oh i forget..... the internet was a dude running with a forked stick holding a letter or a dude on a bicycle being chased by a lion ! Then the timeline of who owned what, who used what and more importantly when was a cartridge introduced and when did actual use become mainstream ! Bock's 9,3 was introduced conceived only in 1904 and by all accounts Mauser only offered and actually produced it by 1905. ( the Last German territories ceded was circa 1918 ) Something about Mauser sporting rifle production. They did not produce sporting rifles like factories do today. Production was done to order. So if Rigby, Stoeger or Taucher put in a order Mauser assembled / built the order and then shipped it. ( we have evidence of this based on the Mauser factory archives ) We see from the sales inventories that pre WW1 the 9mm Mauser was way more numerous than the 9.3 x 62 and based on superficial scrutiny of the sales lists the 10,75 was also more called for in orders than the 9.3 If we look for instance at ammo imports from German South West Africa Gustav Rosenthal in Windhoek imported only 250 rounds of 9,3 x 62 in 1913 and as per his orders he did so under a specific clients name. The 9.3x62 was not widely used at all ! Not if we look at Truesdell's lists of who used what and when. This then augmented by lists put forth by others. I would argue that the 9.3 only became popular only after WW2 and only when FN and Brno Rifles became available in the 1950's ! it is my contention that the 9,3x62 was/ is in fact a post 1950 phenomenon and not in "Former German colonies" as often cited. The 9,3 was primarily a "Rhodesian thing" and it became a South African thing due to its use in Rhodesia ( South Africa was the port of entry for these rifles ) | |||
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| one of us |
I have pretty thoroughly researched anything Elmer ever wrote about the 400 Whelen that I could find. To include a full length article on the 400W he did in the mid 1920s. I don't recall ever reading anything about him having issues with headspace on his own rifle. "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson | |||
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| One of Us |
While a lot of what you say might be true, there is some error in it and a lot of omissions. The 9.3X62 was a German caliber and very popular in German East Africa (today's Tanzania) which was a far bigger colony than today's Namibia. Mauser were not the only ones to make sporting rifles in this caliber. Simson, Sauer and other Suhl gunmakers built rifles in this caliber, from Mauser military actions. My Simson was made before 1912 as it does not have the proof marks introduced in 1912, as confirmed by members of the Mauser collectors club in Germany & the German gun collectors association of the US. The folks there are very helpful with information. Lots of research articles on their websites. They could probably shed more accurate light on the matter rather than just our guess work and opinions. Rhodesia was British - both Southern Zimbabwe & Northern Zambia. The 303 was the most commonly used rifle caliber.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Nakihunter: Yes German East Africa (GEA) was big but only had about 5300 europeans living there under Imperial German rule ! That was men, women and children ! We must not lose sight of the fact that the 9.3 was designed and 1904 and only released commercially in 1905 ! The war in the GEA started in 1914 and the Germans lost it to the Brits in 1918. | |||
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The only problem I recall him mentioning in regard to the 400 Whelen was that he stopped carrying it as his favorite saddle rifle after Western Tool & Copper stopped making the bullets he wanted for it. I can't find the reference at the moment - perhaps I'm confusing it with the 405 WCF and might even have the bullet maker wrong. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Elmer Keith: Why didn’t he ever write about / use the 9.3 x 62?
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