Thanks tasunkawitko,

After reading your post, I looked up the Hornady SST and it does look like it might be a candidate.

BJ, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an eland with 260 AB .375. Knocked everything for a loop in Namibia, as Rusty said. Stem to stern penetration on an anchor shot on a Gemsbok. I'm sure it would kill a buffalo, but I'd go to 300 grain premium for that task. Bob

Brazos Jack,

Where did you hear that the Nosler BT was going away???
I have a direct line to Nosler and I can tell you that this is NOT true! The BT line is very effective on deer.

The AB is also an excellent choice on deer. I have used a 160 gr AB from a 280 AI and the 250 gr AB from a 338 RUM(3000 fps MV) on WT deer with nice exit wounds. Deer don't go far either.


JD338

The BT is not going away.

The AB is a bonded BT

Thanks Ted and JD,

I've been reading posts on every gun related forum out there including this one for over a year saying that the BT was going to be completely phased out. It didn't make sense to me either because the BT and AB are completely different animals optimized for completely different animals. But I'd seen too many gun companies do too many dumb things to ignor it. I'm glad to hear that there is nothing to it.

I doubt there is a better bullet made for deer size game, however at high velocity you will get a lot of blood shot meat. At the same time it turns the boiler room to mush

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
The BT is not going away.

actually, Ted, its been phased out for the larger guns already, and is being phased out over the next couple years, except for varmit calibers .. if thats what you mean be "is not going away" you are correct . if you mean there's no plan, already being acted on, to reduce the selection and calibers available, then you'd be incorrect ..

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
The BT is not going away.

actually, Ted, its been phased out for the larger guns already, and is being phased out over the next couple years, except for varmit calibers .. if thats what you mean be "is not going away" you are correct . if you mean there's no plan, already being acted on, to reduce the selection and calibers available, then you'd be incorrect ..

I'm not sure why any large bullet maker would switch to premium bullets only. They are going to lose a ton of business. I just can't see them phasing out the BT and losing a ton of market share to Hornady, Sierra and Speer. It makes no business sense unless they are planning to roll out a new cup and core bullet that is cheaper to manufacture. It make sense to phase out the over 30 cal to premium only since they are typically used to hunt larger animals than deer.

You don't throw away your core business of deer hunters and target shooters by going premium only. No company is that stupid.

Scott,
below is a rambling discussion -- in a nut shell, they already HAVE started this process .. and just like X vs TSX .. you can't get NEW X bullets today, the produce line is replaced

i don't know how to tell you this .. EVERY car maker makes a new car skin, eveery year, resuing the core technology, but selling a different car EACH YEAR ...

almost every other company and industry introduces product-line-replacement innovationgrade products, EVERY YEAR -- and willingly turns over bottom share to the not-top-players -- drug companies do this continuously ... and turn over the bottom segment of the market to bulk, not nieche players.. you don't think the generic brands of "prilosec" are made by the company that INVENTED it, do you? though they DO continue to make the full price product, for those niche markets that refuse all change -- though they can increase their prices!

you are right, about people not wanting to pay for newer bullets -- ABs are NOT "premium" bullets ,,, Nosler's premium bullet is the Part -- and costs more, for better performance. the AB is a new GRADE product..

there had been no real competition to the BTs until the tipped hornady cup and core bullets came out.. ONLY hornady compeats in a like replacement and price market .. so the others being added are distractors. besides, the BT isn't just a cup and core bulk bullet, is it? if it was, no one would care .. is a VERY accurate bullet shape and TIP .. there's only one player other in a VERY narrow market, which gives nosler a reason to leave its old/cheap bullt market, and charge MORE, making more money, for a better bullet.

loose a ton of business? doubtful, but frequently planned! lots of companies still make some profit on products that they choose to discontinue do to other market issues ... happens EVERY day ...

no one really thinks it costs 50% more to make these than BTs, do they? nor do they think the price will stay that high ... over time, BT's will be made less and less, AB more and more, and the AB price will decrease due to scale of manf .. and no one runs to hornady or barnes, due to brand loyalty ....

"no company is that stupid" is almost correct..only best companies in their fields are THAT smart...

The AB is nothing more than the BT with a glued in core. I bet the AB out sells the BT by a considerable margin

Here's the Nosler proshop prices for 165 gr .30 cal bullets.
( all prices per 50)
Custome competition: 13.47
Ballistic Tip 18.95
Accubond 27.95
Partition 33.95
e-tip 32.95

Accubond looks like a premium price to me!

Jeffeosso, Nosler sells alot of their Ballistic tip varmit bullets, are you suggesting they are going to replace these with a premium bonded bullet? I haven't seen a prarie dog yet that needed a bonded bullet to kill it.

JWP, In addition to the AB's jacket being glued on, they also have a slightly thicker jacket.

Ford started with just the Model T. Now look at how many differnet cars they offer. Just because a company offers something new, doesn't mean the have to discontinue something old. Especially if that something old is a cash cow, loved by your customers, and covers your single largest market segment. On this forum we talk alot about hunting Africa, Moose, Elk, ect, but at heart, America is still a deer hunting nation, so it would be unwise to discontinue your deer hunting bullet.

sniper, please try to take emotion out of a business factual discussion ..try to keep your facts straight, as they WILL be verified (see note below on price and bullet weights(

premium means top, not second from the bottom or "middle" grade ... as your \price for the custom comp is wrong .. it lists for 32.10, for the 168gr, no 165 listed -- and it's not a hunting bullet anyway


and yes, i expect the HUNTING BTs to be entirely replaced. as HUNTING bullets . it will be easy to know "AB is a hunting bullet" and "BT is a varmit bullet" - which leaves you right there for varmit bullets

you are just dead wrong onin the ditch on your model t thing ... they ALWAYS discontinue the old, every time, and so will nosler .. your "love" for th product clouds reason

deer hunting can be done with cast bullet, and probably leave less lead fragments in the meat .. and ABs are bonded, not glued ... and yes ,there's a HUGE difference, chemically and metalurically.

we don't drive model Ts because, by todays standards, they are not up to CUSTOMER EXPECTATIONS ..

and, of course, they are now no longer (BTs) offered in the larger medium bores, when they had been offered all the way to 375 ... and the range of HUNTING bt's offered will go DOWN, every period, while the prices of the midgrade AB goes down...

and, by the time there's no longer a 308 HUNTING BT available, you'll only be paying 5cents more per bullet anyway, due to volume...

you'll never care, for HUNTING bullets, and wonder why you didn't switch sooner.

i'll be blunt .. even GM found out compeating with YOURSELF is just plain STUPID .. which is why there aren't 5 house brands of siular pickup trucks .. the lux market is another thing .. ford doesn't offer an WORK TRUCK L-150, just a rebadged F150 under the lincoln name, either

there's more hunting ABs weight and caliber offered on nosler's site than HUNTING bts --- you can go count for yourself ...

that's a pretty clear indicator, aint it?

quote:

JWP, In addition to the AB's jacket being glued on, they also have a slightly thicker jacket.

Do you have the AB and BT of the same weigth and caliber and production period sectioned for comparison?

The BT's jackets have been thickened over the years

jeff....calm down, you have made more than just a couple good points in your last two or three post but reading them leaves me feeling like you are about 1 notch above cool....emotional a bit maybee.

Thank you for your information.

Unfortunately, Jeff is probably right. But I for one will not migrate to a bonded core bullet for whitetails.

A few years back South Carolina did a satistical study of how far deer traveled after being hit with a variety of calibers, bullet types, and shot placement.

They determined that deer ran significantly less frequently (42%), less distance (27 yds.) and left sign more often (88%) when struck with soft type bullets (simple cup & core) than when struck with hard style bullets (bonded, partition, monometal) (60%,43 yds., and 81%).

So when hit with premiums deer ran 50% more often, ran almost twice as far, and left no sign almost twice as often (no sign 19% of time versus 12% of time).

We argue about which cartridge for deer but they found no statistically significant difference when hit with calibers from 6mm to .30 cal.

I may go to AB's for elk and the larger African antelope (kudu, wildebeast, etc.) instead of PT's

quote:

you are just dead wrong onin the ditch on your model t thing ... they ALWAYS discontinue the old, every time, and so will nosler .. your "love" for th product clouds reason

Why are bullets better then cars?
I can't buy a new model T, but I can still buy new cast lead bullets.

Jeff, sorry about the Varmit bullet reference. I knew what you ment, but just had to poke you a little bit
The thread started out: "The sky is falling, Nosler is going to discontinue the BT tomorrow and I need to find a new bullet"... The sky is not falling, BT's are not going away tomorrow. I do expect Nosler, to continue making adjustment to their product line every year. Since Big Bore shooters are some of the most demanding hunters, it makes sence to give those customers what they want. If I had to choose between a .375 Ballistic tip, or Accubond for Africa, I think we both know how that would play out. Even in the .338 caliber, it's a minority of us that like the Ballistic Tip for elk. Sometime's the adjustments go the other way. Earlier this year they discontinues .458 300gr Partition protected point for the 45-70, and replaced it with a new 300 gr CT ballistic tip. I suspect the new bullet was at the request of Winchester, and with limited production resources, the "customer" got what he wanted.

You make a good point about expanding customer expectations. As you probably recall, the Ballistic Tip replaced the old Solid Base (which nosler still sells from time-to-time, as a private label product). When someone runs across the old solid base, and doesn't know that they are, the questions usually go like this:

Are these things any good?
Can ya kill a deer with them?
Oh, I dunno if I believe you, they have that exposed lead, and no plastic tip, I don't know if they would shoot in my gun, and with out the plastic tip, I just don't know if they will kill a deer. Should I go with the Partitions instead???

Yes, Jeff, today you can't kill a deer with a bullet that doesn't have a plactic tip, and there may come a day when you cannot kill them with out a bonded core. As the attitudes of hunters shift, so will the production lines, it's just not all going to happen tomorrow.

I'd be shocked if NBT Hunting bullets are not Nolser's "cash cow" and their most popular bullet line. I seriously doubt they will discontinue them. Accubonds do cost about 40% more than plain NBT.

Not everyone replaces their bullet lines like Barnes. I believe Nosler still makes the Partition which was introduced in 1948. The Nosler Ballistic Tip is an icon just like the Partition. Sierra Gamekings and Hornady Interlocks are still around. I don't think either company will be replacing their most popular bullets just because they release a premium bullet.

I know speer did it but they did it because the DeepCurl is cheaper to produce (copper plated) than the hot-cor and is a better performer.

140gr BT recovered out of the far shoulder on a quartering away shot. 200yd shot with a .280 AI and a MV of 3150.

I will not be using BT's this year on the same hunt and instead will be returning to the AB's which I had previously been using. (None of which I have ever recovered as all were pass throughs.)

JC

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
jeff....calm down, you have made more than just a couple good points in your last two or three post but reading them leaves me feeling like you are about 1 notch above cool....emotional a bit maybee.

Thank you for your information.

ted. its sometimes difficult to answer all the distractors and not appear to be involved .. frustrated? certainly, that people will say silly things to support their bias ...

but its plain as grass, nosler is gearing to replace all hunting BTs with ABs -- in fact, when one looks at the population of available nosler hunting tipped bullets,

they already have

past tense

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

but its plain as grass, nosler is gearing to replace all hunting BTs with ABs -- in fact, when one looks at the population of available nosler hunting tipped bullets,

they already have

past tense

Where are you looking? Certainly some local gun shops may be low on stock but the large internet wholesalers like Midway have them in stock. I checked 30, 7mm & 277 and they have all the bullet weights in stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Jcchartboy:
140gr BT recovered out of the far shoulder on a quartering away shot. 200yd shot with a .280 AI and a MV of 3150.

I will not be using BT's this year on the same hunt and instead will be returning to the AB's which I had previously been using. (None of which I have ever recovered as all were pass throughs.)

JC

JC,

How far did it travel after being hit?

I just e-mailed Nosler with a link to this thread and a list of questions on the future of the B-Tip. We will now wait.

Scott,
wh, i went to the nosler site, and simply counted the available bullets diameter and weight for AB and for BT Hunting bullets ... facts being what they are, the AB bullets outnumber the models available for BT Hunting bullets -- iirc, 22 to 18

There is absolutely no science to what I am about to post, but from my observations of my families experiences, I won't use ballistic tips under 150 gr on deer size game. On the other hand, I will use Accubonds under 150 gr on deer size game.

dont let anyone tell you premium bullets are needed for deer. Ive killed a truck load of deer with ballistic tips and sierra spitzers and they work just fine. In fact ive killed three deer in the last two days with a 300 mag shooting 165 ballistic tips. Sure if you hit a shoulder there going to mess up some meat but what high velocity round shot into a shoulder wont. I wouldnt hesitate to use ballistic tips on anything under 600 lbs.

Confirmed by Nosler....

"The Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting line of bullets are not being discontinued or phased out. Rest assured they will be around for a very long time."


JD338

Personally I think the Ballistic Tip IS a premium bullet. It is a very high quality product. One just needs to understand how it is constructed and intended to function. It is a cup-n-core bullet designed to fragment on impact and create multiple wound channels. Great for deer. Wouldn't be my first choice for elk.

I use a 100 grain BT in my 257 Rbts. and it works dandy on deer and pronghorn. Some would say it is a varmint load. I say not so fast if you want to save the pelt from a nice January coyote. I'd choose the Accubond or similar. I doubt I would use this combo to hunt deer in grizzly country. Might be a better choice far that situation too.

quote:

Originally posted by JD338:
Confirmed by Nosler....

"The Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting line of bullets are not being discontinued or phased out. Rest assured they will be around for a very long time."


JD338

2 years, tops

The BT has a place in a hunting rifle...Just the rifle need to propel the Bt are the correct velocity for it to perform as intended...I honestly dont think that bullet is designed to be propelled out of something like a 7mm Mag, just to fast for the tinner style jacket on the bullet. A bonded bullet will just perform better with that much velocity.

I like AB out of my 308 but that is just me, I like to get pass throughs with as little meat damage as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by JD338:
Confirmed by Nosler....

"The Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting line of bullets are not being discontinued or phased out. Rest assured they will be around for a very long time."


JD338

2 years, tops

I would like to ask you to call Nosler directly and ask the question. 800 285 3701
I can assure you that Nosler is NOT going to phase out the BT line.

JD338

and omaba said we'd close gitmo, and no more government bailouts.

A simple solution, buy enough now to last, or plan your work and work your plan. If you purchased $100 worth per month, you could own quite a few in 24 months.
GWB

Gentlemen ----- I have three grandsons in Tennessee that I furnish rifles and Deer hunting reloads. The can take three per day, thus they shoot a lot of bullets. I also have a grandson and grandaughter in Kentucky that are just starting the hunting game and I am planning for their future. They shoot a .243 WSSM, 25 WSSM, .257 Wby, two .270 WSM's, .300 Winny, 7mm STW. The last three years I have accumulated Nosler Hunting Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, and Partitions in the above calibers to the tune of 250 sacs of cosmetic blems for approximately a third of their retail price. I have never found any difference from their first line bullets in performance or accuracy. You can do the same if you get aware of what they have to offer. Good shooting.

Go to www.shootersproshop.com and click on factory 2nds and you will find what you can buy at this time. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and omaba said we'd close gitmo, and no more government bailouts.

Not a true comparison, we all know Obama is a liar.

If you call Nosler, you will hear it directly from them. The Nosler Ballistic Tip line is not going to be phased out.

JD338

quote:

Originally posted by JD338:
Confirmed by Nosler....

"The Nosler Ballistic Tip Hunting line of bullets are not being discontinued or phased out. Rest assured they will be around for a very long time."


JD338

Here is the response I received.

"Hey Scott,

I appreciate you bringing this thread to our attention. This unfounded rumor is a mystery to us here at Nosler as we have zero intention to discontinue, phase out or replace the Ballistic Tip bullet with the AccuBond. The Ballistic Tip bullet continues to be one of Nosler’s best selling bullets, has a worldwide following and will continue to be offered as one of our most successful product lines. I hope this clears things up.

Thanks again and please take care,

Zach Waterman
Public Relations Director
Nosler, Inc.
800-285-3701 ext 1006"

quote:

Originally posted by Brando:
The BT has a place in a hunting rifle...Just the rifle need to propel the Bt are the correct velocity for it to perform as intended...I honestly dont think that bullet is designed to be propelled out of something like a 7mm Mag, just to fast for the tinner style jacket on the bullet. A bonded bullet will just perform better with that much velocity..

Brando,
I don't know if you consider 3040 fps. @ 15' from the muzzle (avg. out of a 7mm mag.) too fast, but I have personally seen two instances of a 140 gr. Ballistic Tips have the lead core "totally" seperate from the jacket. One of the bullets was recovered from a 6'X 5' hay bale, the other from a deer's front ankle (pastern -I believe). The copper jacket was embedded just above the hoof. Looked like someone took a drill, made a hole and stuck the jacket in the hole. Don't ask me how that happened, I can't explain it, but the point is there was absolutely no sign of lead attachment to the copper jacket in either instance, just like the picture posted further up the thread.

I later warned a friend about his BTips in his 7mag. @ 3040 fps., two weeks later he shot at a large boar hog at appox. 100 yards. By his own words, " the bullet exploded on the front shoulder and the hog ran off". He said he saw a red cavity on the front shoulder but the hog still had use of the front leg.

I never considered the BT as a deer bullet. Seen too many of them disintegrate on impact. One entry hole......... 5 exit wounds (.270 Win and .300 Win). Only experience I've had with the AccuBang on whitetails was a 175-ish yard shot with a 140 grainer from a 7-STW. 3605 fps at the muzzle failed to expand the AB 175 yards downrange. 7mm hole in........7mm hole out. You tell me.............. ???????

I shoot Speer Grand Slams now and just go gut stuff after the bang.