Friend of mine killed one by shooting it’s tail off with 180 gr silvertip with a 30-06.

Range about 100 yds.

BH63

Tell me the difference in a Texas Heart shot and a frontal shot..Ive seen move large animals wounded with a frontal shot that slide off the ribs and went between the outside of the rib cage and the inside of the shoulder, fairly common on Cape buffalo, but Ive seen it on Texas Hill country 90 lb deer...and what about the going away shot that's used more than any shot actually wherein you place the bullet behind the last rib..None of these shots are ideal, but all the nay sayers, if they actually hunt, have take all these shots..The bambi syndrome is rampant on AR today!

Sure if the situation is such I think I can wait for a broadside TV shot I will do it, but Im not letting a 6x6 elk just walk off, ain't happening, I want to keep a high rate of success, fill my freezer, and have 0 qualms about taking a Texas Heart shot..and its NEVER failed me, if I use enough gun..I would not take that shot on elk with a 250/3000, 243, or such, but my 06 or 338 with proper bullets will pack the mail..elk are not that hard to kill to start with, they consist of flesh, bone and blood, not steel..and a real elk hunt isn't Saturday morning television in a high fence over a tub of grain..My dad was a rancher, not much gun knowledge, and not the greatest shot in the world, always got his elk, some with a close shot in the keyster with a 30-30 in certain places he hunted, never wounded one..

His idea of elk hunting was said to be like masturbation, once you pulled the trigger, you had a terrible mess on your hands, Im sure he ment with any shot taken!! I couldn't agree more.

Ray,
Lot's of folks are high principled it seems. I can't speak to their honesty or their experience. I can question the facts however and as you state, with the right gun and bullet, it is a good shot and one that a long time hunter will run into having an opportunity for.
As you have also said, I too have seen about every shot muffed and the front end miss on slight angle has less chance of recovery that most shots.
Also, I would question as wisdom for all, might be for an individual guided by his freedom to choose, that it is "OK" for a 6x6 trophy on last day hunt but "wrong" on day one cow elk. If it is "Wrong" then it is "Wrong." "Wrong" is a moral statement.
The size of the elk nor the day of the hunt can't change a moral question. Now if your concerned about ruining meat, that is a different question. Again, I thank Elmer, his "eat right up to the Hole" explains all of my shots thus taken and referred to in previous posts.
I have said multiple times, we are all free to choose and free to deal with the consequences.

quote:

Ive seen move large animals wounded with a frontal shot that slide off the ribs and went between the outside of the rib cage and the inside of the shoulder, fairly common on Cape buffalo, but Ive seen it on Texas Hill country 90 lb deer...

Happened to a friend of mine using a 06 and 150gr bronze point on a 120lb deer.

When we killed it a half mile later and took the hide of we were surprised.

I'm not an advocate of shooting the bum but the 200 AB has about zero chance of reaching the vitals but it would probably anchor the animal.

I've shot 2 elk close range (under 75 yards) with that bullet and both lost all the core and the only thing left was about a quarter-size copper jacket.

Even though it's bonded, at close range it violently expands and looses penetrating abilities quickly.

It's fine for a chest shot but don't ask more from it than that at high-velocity, close-range impacts!

Zeke

For all readers: When I say "I thank Elmer" that means heavy for caliber bullets and moderate velocity. My 338 with 275 Semi spitzer Speer was going 2450-2500 at the muzzle. You can't take a cup and core and get violent expansion and expect good penetration. Mono's are different I know but I still trust lower impact velocities and a good heavy bullet. Velocity is not your friend on this shot unless your using Saeed's walterhog's at 2800 fps or the like. Like I testified to earlier, an original 180 X bullet at 2800 fps muzzle and a 425 yard shot worked just fine.

Zeke,
I have had a totally different experience with accubonds, never had one come apart and every one of them looked like a mushroom, about what Ive come to expect from a partition bullet..So far that would be on about half a dozen elk and a large number of culled Texas Hill contry whitetail. My impression is they work on small deer as well as elk, that's the no.1 reason I like them so much...I have used them in the 30-06 and the 225 gr. 338 primarily..and used the 250 gr. in the black timber once or twice?? for a Tex. heart shot and it plowed them both down on their chin..Not sure on the count, maybe one of them was with a 225 Accubond..anyway they have worked par excellent..Are you sure you weren't using Nosler Balistic tips...The Accubond is a Balistic tip with a soldered core. I don't recall ever seeing a soldered core bullet fail..at least not so far. I had a guy at the coffee shop passing a Nosler partition around calling it a failed bullet, It was in fact on close examination a 30 cal. Sierra of some unknown weight. He said "oh yeah, that's what it is!! duh!!

Fury1,
I have several boxes of those 275 gr. Speers that I picked up at the Twin Falls gun show last year...Loaded up 100 of them and put the others away for later use..Hard to find...I shot a big cow and a Bison with those bullets, they worked well, just like Elmer said they would, but I doubt they are any better than a good premium bullet of today, but Im just nostalgic enough to give them a try one of these elk seasons..We are going to have a depredation hunt in late July on a friends ranch for cow elk, Im getting one of the permits, I'll let you know how they worked..those cows will be large and fat on green alfalfa...and I'll still be elgible for a regular tag during the regular season,so I'll go for a bull.

I still have a full box and some loaded rounds, I think, along with some 300 Barnes solids loaded rounds. No 338 though. I let a beloved and now departed, buddy have my last one, Ruger #1. He had a bear problem he wanted to solve.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Zeke,
I have had a totally different experience with accubonds, never had one come apart and every one of them looked like a mushroom, about what Ive come to expect from a partition bullet..So far that would be on about half a dozen elk and a large number of culled Texas Hill contry whitetail. My impression is they work on small deer as well as elk, that's the no.1 reason I like them so much...I have used them in the 30-06 and the 225 gr. 338 primarily..and used the 250 gr. in the black timber once or twice?? for a Tex. heart shot and it plowed them both down on their chin..Not sure on the count, maybe one of them was with a 225 Accubond..anyway they have worked par excellent..Are you sure you weren't using Nosler Balistic tips...The Accubond is a Balistic tip with a soldered core. I don't recall ever seeing a soldered core bullet fail..at least not so far. I had a guy at the coffee shop passing a Nosler partition around calling it a failed bullet, It was in fact on close examination a 30 cal. Sierra of some unknown weight. He said "oh yeah, that's what it is!! duh!!

Yep, I'm sure of what I was using and of what I saw. Of that there is no doubt. I'm not looking for a wiener-measuring contest but we can have one if you want as the total count of critters felled by an Accubond in my various rifles is very high.

I still (and the whole damn family) use them since, according to me, this wasn't really considered a bullet "failure" because of the close ranges.

I shot the 200 Accubond until I went with the LR 210 accubond in my RUM. I also use the regular accubond in my 270 Win, 280 AI and 300 Win and 340 Wby, all with good results. Mostly, I don't find the bullets but I still have a bin in my office with those that were found. Some look like an advertisement but others do not but they all killed just fine.

I guess I don't consider it a failure because I want a projectile that will exhibit bullet upset at long(er) range too. There are always trade-offs and the Accubond is almost the best of both worlds for me.

If you want to shoot an elk from behind with an Accubond, have at it but if I had to do it my rifle would be loaded with Barnes TSX.

Respectfully,
Zeke

I respect your opinion, I just have had a different experience in that I feel the Accubond is as effective in every respect as the partition..and I base that on quite a number of kills..however I have not shot an elk with a Texas heart shot according to my book, but have shot several face on, and yet to recover but one bullet out of the hip, the other exited the flank, that suits me..

what more can I say other than that's what makes a horse race, and the diffence we have a lot of bullets to chose from. With the monolithic one can use a lighter bullet to get the same amount of penetration, that's fine, but its not the last word in bullets IMO.

I suspect the main difference is my velocity is somewhat lower than yours. I use the 200 gr Accubond in the 30-06 and the 225 Accubond in my .338 Win..for elk..

I was hunting with a friend and he shot the tail off a bull elk at about 100 yds. Elk piled up deader than a doornail.

He was shooting a 30-06 with 180 gr Corelocts.

BH63

I brining this thread back because I got to test this on a 440 pound filed dressed Red Stag.

In keeping with my own advice it was not the first shot.

The first shot was right above the heart. The Stag turned unable to put weight on either foreleg.

He stopped, visibly wobbling at 100 yards. I would bet my Wife if I had not shot he would have collapsed where he stood, but the guide said shot again. He was straight away from me.

I placed the bullet right in the ball joint on the left side.

The Stag fell to the right to the ground and did not get back up.

The bullet crushed the ball joint the rear quarter of the spine. It made it through the diagram, but did not make it through one lung.

The cartridge was a 7mm STW, bullet 160 grain accubond, muzzle velocity 3207. I had a very solid rest, and the animal was statutory. I still would not do it for a first shot, particularly on a running animal.

I have had two experiences with shooting game from the rear, neither with a unwounded animal.

The first was with a black rhino, which had absorbed three broadside hits from my .505 SRE (570 grain FMJ bullet at 2150 fps). I managed to reload and deliver a parting shot as he vanished into the underbrush. Neither that shot, nor the two fired by my PH with his .470 NE had any effect.

It was later determined that one of the .470 bullets grazed the horn from rear to front and the other keyholed in the left ham. My bullet went into the right ham, but did not penetrate the body cavity. We found the rhino piled up and very dead about 100 yards away from where last seen.

The second was with an eland, who had been crossing from right to left in front of me at about 100 yards. I shot, aiming for the heart, with my Krieghoff .375 H&H O/U DR, and at the shot he swerved quartering away from me, so I let him have the other barrel, causing him to go down instantly.

A post mortem revealed that the first shot had gone where aimed and that he was dead on his feet after it and the second shot had ended up in the hip joint, shattering the ball and resulting in the perfectly expanded 300 grain Silvertip still lodged in the socket.

Given the circumstances, if faced with the same situation, I would have done the same thing and in the case of the rhino, hoped for better results. I don't think I would have taken either shot at an unwounded animal.

Never at any distance.

if yuo hunt nilgai in South Texas, you will be presented with MANY TES opportunities .. just saying

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if yuo hunt nilgai in South Texas, you will be presented with MANY TES opportunities .. just saying

But "presented" doesn't mean you have to take them. This is also true of any animal hunted in thick brush or forest regardless of locale.

I guess I've never been so desperate to feel the need to shoot an unwounded animal from behind.

Not elk.

But I have shot many Cape buffalo with the Texas heart shot.

Worked every time, using my 375/404 and either Barnes X or our own Walterhog bullets in 300 grains.

The most important factor is penetration.

This year I shot 3 buffalo from one herd one morning, the last of which was running away and the classic Te as heart shot anchored him in his place.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if yuo hunt nilgai in South Texas, you will be presented with MANY TES opportunities .. just saying

But "presented" doesn't mean you have to take them. This is also true of any animal hunted in thick brush or forest regardless of locale.

I guess I've never been so desperate to feel the need to shoot an unwounded animal from behind.

everyone hunts their own ethics - my first nilgai hunt, i didn't pull the trigger -- the ONLY animal that I could have given a clean shot to was a very nice bull, but we were hunting cows. Nilgai run at about 40 MPH, and don't slow/stop when they hit the brush .. and seeing how they cross UNDER barb wire is a sight to behold .. they run at the fence, throw themselves at the ground, SLIDE under it, and are back on their feet in about a second, and back at 40 MPH before you could close your mouth in wonder.

not to mention they are tough as tanks, fast as motorcycles, and seem to be born running -- they run EVERYWHERE - one rarely sees them ambling along.

To those who abhor the Texas Heart Shot, when questioned will praise the frontal shot on game, and that's the same shot but much more inclined to fail, but they all declare its a great shot..On large game I have seen that bullet slide to one side and go between the shoulder and the rib cage, ant then you have one hell of a tracking job Or your bouncing bullets off a cape buffalos skull..

I ask every holier than me, to answer that question?? I would much rather take a going away shot than a buff staring me down, the only buffalo I ever wounded were both frontal shots!! One Saeed found the next day was shot by me and the PH, both the same shot placement, The other was lost and on both of those bulls the bullet slipped to one side or the other took the right passthru on one bull and the other bull is thought to have servived as the bullet allegedly went in the front of the shoulder and out the rear of the shoulder doing little damage and left no blood at all..He was healthy and meaan according to a herder who saw him a week later..

I have seen that frontal shot do likewise on two maybe three elk, but none were lost as the follow up shots put them down.

Ray,
Could not agree more. When one uses only facts, there is little to object to about this shot for Killing Game.
Each can decide for their selves on what shot to take. It's a free country.

Thank you Ray, Saeed and others. Killing animals is not for snowflakes!

Texas heart shot on an escaping elk at 110 yards; .338 with Noslers.

There comes a time when the hunter has to just do it!

Other examples - fleeing Nilgai bull in heavy mesquite cover; only shot was a 5 yard gap= gut shot with .405 WCF; Nilgai lie down fast with a .405 tummy ache (within 5 yards) and then you can walk up and get it over with.
Escaping buff with head and shoulders already in the bush - .405 WCF broke pelvis and ended the parade.

Killing is not always pretty, but it is part of the sport.

Ive hunted Nilgai on the KIng Ranch on two or three occasions, Nilgai are damn tough to kill and when I hear some yahoo bragging about killing his NIlgai with one shot from a .308, I don't doubt he did, but I know he has not shot very many Nilgai, just that one...My favorite Nilgai gun is a 375 H&H but Ive shot most with a .338 Win with 300 gr. Woodleihs, 285 gr. Speer Grand slam and 250 gr. Noslers, some took more than one hit, in fact most did, because I don't quit shooting until they are down for the count...They do eat good.

Dropped a Kudu running away at 250 yds with a 416 Remington / 370 gr North Fork in the right hip. DRT.
Took him to the skipping shed so I do not know the damage.

First of all, the frontal shot is more of a wounding shot than the Texas Heart Shot, but the holier than thou will take that shot every time, those that declare only a broadside shot watch too much TV..

Also if you miss the anus, a 300 wby or a 30-06 with a heavy bullet will bust the hell out of the hip bone or whatever else it hits and drive into the vitals if you use enough gun..

Some comments are assumptions on this thread and they are just wrong...Sometimes the T.H. shot may not kill instantly but it will anchor and elk every time it it shatters the hip, if it doesn't the bullet will go to the heart and lungs...The broadside perfect shot kills slower as a rule than the Texas heart shot as it destroys less tissue, blood vessels etc and results in short to long runs..

Sometimes I get the impression that some folks have never shot an elk or perhaps few..not comdeming just seem to have some unreasonable expectations on this subject..but at this point its run its course and the option is yours.

A Texas heart shot is deadly and quick. tears up more vitals than any broadside shot, the only down side is its a little messy if your squimish..My best bull a 389 monster took a Texas heart shot and went 10 yards down hill so was dead at the hit..A 338 with a 300 gr. Woodligh RN blew a 3 inch hole out behind the ear, that's penetration deluxe, over 5 ft is my guess....I have used the texas heart shot on a few deer, and on more than a few elk, and I always use enough gun if I take the shot.

The only long tracking jobs Ive had were frontal shots, two on buffalo and one on and eland, long tracking jobs. Ive lost a couple of animals in my life but never with a THS..It happens..considering the number of animals Ive killed that's pretty good record. One was a buffalo and recovered the next day by Saeed and PIerre eaten buy Lions, the other was a buffalo with a broken foreleg that got away..bothersome for sure.

To the experts who say you can wait until the animal turns to give you a perfect shot, you need to hunt more or get out of your blind or cut the BS...

I just finished Elmer Keith’s Big Game Rifles. He reports with heavy cup and core bullet no calibers under 35 would reach the vitals from the rump of an elk.

The book is littered with elk that are shot up the rump with 220-225 grain 308 bullets only to be found “soured” weeks later or having to tracked down much alive, or lost.

I did it once as a anchoring shot. But I would not do it as a first shot.

I see how the rump shot would cause more damage if it reaches and penetrates the chest cavity. Everything from stem to stern is destroyed turned into jelly. The septic shock alone would be hell. There in little if any difference between a frontal that transverses the length of a Bull or the rear. The difference is only on a frontal the heart and lungs if the shot is not screwed up will make it to the lungs/heart. In the rump shot the bullet may make it to the vitals.

But if the bullet does not get there, severe a major artery, or brake the bull down in the socket or spine. One has no exit wound and the lungs and heart are still pumping.

The shot is a tall ask, is all I am saying.

Of course, Keith reported his 35 Whelen got 2500 FPS with 275 grain bullet and would reach the vitals. I think that velocity was impossible in 1930 and nigh impossible today.

I think that what the experts are saying about letting the animal turn are saying on any given animal on any given day, I would rather let him walk and win that day than risk the rump shot. At least, that is what I am saying. Now, if wounded all bets are in the middle of the table.

I am not calling Mr. Atkinson wring, a lier, or unethical. I am just saying for me putting all the weight on the scale this is how I balance it.

Each shall work about their own salvation in fear and trembling.

I think Elmer said that only one rifle/load had actually done the deed for him on a Bull elk and that a 45/70 120 55C which was a 550 grain lead at about 1200 fps.
He opined that the 35 whelen with the 275 grain would do "the jot" as well "if it didn't expand too much or break up sooner from the higher velocity."
And as you said, he had no faith that lessor rounds would do the task without a solid.
Elmer had no Barnes Tsx on hand to try it with a 300 Weatherby or any other rifle. I have never found fault in Elmers logic with the rifles, loads, bullets that he had to comment on. One of my favorite authors. Much respect.

He said the 45-550-120 at 1500 would always did it and had done it once with 35. Hence how a phrased the post 35 and above.

Elmer Keith was a minor god in my home. I doubt his veil claims on the 35 that is all.

All too often we see on these threads folks posting about heavy weight cup and core 220-30/06 or 220 300 loads penetrating like a freight train. I believe Elmer proved way back when that was not the case.

Construction beats raw weight.

If you are going to believe everything he wrote, you have to believe a heavy weight lead core cup and core expanding bullet under 35 caliber (before the 338) is not a good bet for the rump shot. The Accubond is a great bullet. The rump shot is still a hard ask.

He did have the 280 and 276 Dubie Mags which he gives high praise.

The Branes mono expanders are amazing from a penetration test.

He also did not like the Partition.

I knew Elmer, he was an interesting person, and I liked reading is stuff, but I base much of what he said as an overactive imagination..such as riding a bronc until he was bleeding out his nose and ears, wounding elk with a 30-06 and blaming the caliber although he was using GI ball!! and on and on..

If I wanted fact I read Jack O'Conner, I knew him, I guided him, he was indeed wise, humorous, and the best off hand rifle shot Ive ever known.

According to his book and articles he wounded more game than anyone I know or have heard of..if he didn't like a caliber he wounded game with it and it came out in print..He wounded elk with multiple shot with a 250-3000, then killed them with his 38-40 colt while this 13 year old killed elk with a 25-35 and 250-3000, and still can should I decide to..