The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Pac-Nor or Douglass?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I am getting ready to build a 338-06 this will be a hunting rifle not a bench rifle. Does anyone have an opinion as to which barrel to buy? I guess the real question is, does the extra money add up when used on a hunting gun? "Let God or be god". | ||
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I'm a real fan of Douglas.....darn things just work and reasonable priced Use a #3 contour. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Nothing wrong with a Douglas. I have an air gaged Douglas (I think it was an extra $10 for the air gage up grade) that shoots in the .3" every day. NRA Patron Life Member | |||
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2 questions guys, why the #3 contour and what does air-gauging do for you? "Let God or be god". | |||
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I know Douglas has been around for long time, but I have never used them. Pacnor, OTOH has impressed me. I just had a Model 70 Classic Featherweight rebarreld to 358 Win. and the did a great job. I will definitely use them again. They promised an 8 week turn around and they beat it by a week. Lou **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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I shunned Douglas for many years, because they messed up a barrel once, (my first custom barrel) and didn't make it right. However, lately (after 25 years) I've loosened up a bit, and now own one Douglas barrel, which I'm happy with. OTOH, I have several Pac Nor barrels, and I'm happy with all of them. The thing I don't understand about Douglas is when I call them and ask any thing close to a technical question, the best answer I have ever gotten is "we'll make what ever you want - it's up to you." I just gave up asking. They sound over the phone like they have had too much Jack Danials over their lifetime. However, when I call the pleasant folks at Pac-Nor, they actually return my call, and actually answer my questions - thoroughly. They make barrels quickly and I have had only good experience with them. I still don't understand why Douglas doesn't lapp their barrels, and almost every other top barrel maker does this procedure as a routine, and their barrels included this in the price. Douglas, however is close to the same price, yet no lapping. I think Shilen offeres their CM barrels at a price competitive with Douglas, and Shilen offers the lapping for an extra price. I don't think Douglas offers lapping at all. I do admit though that the one Douglas barrel I have is accurate, and easy to clean. It seems to be a very good barrel. I just don't understand the technical answer to this delima. Perhaps someone who knows more on the subject can offer some useful info. Whichever barrel you choose, I would recommend a 12" twist rate for the 338-06. My 338 WM has a Lilja 12" twist, and it's super accurate with 200, 210, and 225 gr bullets. The 10" twist is for the 270 gr and 300 gr bullets, which I don't use. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I have three Pac-Nors and they are awesome. My mauser project is getting a Douglas C/M. I just got my 338-06 done in the Spring. I got a Hart from Mid-way on sale for it. Penny at Pac-nor is awesome, if she does not know she will put you on with Chris. They get you the barrel when they say so. Lilja, Hart, Pac-Nor, Shilen in S/S are with in $50 bucks of each other. Customer service I doubt you can beat Pac_nor or Lilja. You can get a Shilen or Douglas off the shelf from Brownell's. In a sporter weight hunting rifle I doubt there is a lick of difference in any of them, the smith will make or break them most of the time IMHO | |||
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OtterBob, I can answer the air-gauge part. The barrelmaker push/pulls a carbide button that has a reverse profile to the rifling thru the barrel blank under tremendous air pressure. They have an air pressure gauge attached to the machine. If there are any hard or soft spots or inclusions in the blank the change in air pressure push/pulling the button thru will show on the gauge. One that has typically, less than 1% change in pressure is a sign of a very homogenous piece of barrel steel. That is a "premium air-gauged barrel" and will usually cost you more. The #3 contour is just a preference for a size and weight of barrel blank. Rich | |||
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Air Gage: variation of less than .0001" from one end of the bore to the other. And apparently it is a $35 option now. Here's the web page for Douglas, they describe the "Air Gage" criteria on the first page. http://www.benchrest.com/douglas/our_barrels.html Their standard contours are also provided on a table on the web page. Regarding lapping. If the barrel is uniform (.0001" seems uniform to me), shoots well and cleans easily, what's to be gained by lapping? NRA Patron Life Member | |||
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I have done the PacNor #3 contour in a .338-06-super match I believe. Broke in quickly. Shoots good.Having Timan doing a Douglas now on a Mauser 98-9.3 x 64 chambering. Take your pick, both are good. | |||
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YOU shouldn't go wrong with either.. I pick PacNor for my past rebarrels... basically them being 100 miles or so, over the mountain range from here.... I have one on order tho from ER Shaw right now.. and was looking at doing a Walther Lothar in the near future.... | |||
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Have not used PacNor ... Douglas is local. Met the son of the owner (now running the business) while shooting IPSC years ago. Very knowledgeable folks who do very, very good work. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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PacNor would be my choice,...I have 4 and all are competition worthy. They do break in quickly and clean very easily. Lapping has nothing at all to do with land/groove variations from one end to the other. The air guage machine simply shows which ones are the tightest in tolerances,..nothing more. Lapping smooths out the internal polish and allows the barrel to break in faster as well as clean up easier. ANY barrel offered as top quality SHOULD be lapped as part of the production,..any company not doing so would not get my money. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Ditto. Haven't had a bad barrel or a bad installation job in over 20 years! http://www.itdcustomgun.com/   | |||
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Twer it me it would slam dunk no doubt about it be heading to PN. I've more than a few buds that have nothing but excellent things to say about Chris and Penny. I've not much good to say about Douglas and or their tubes. Long story short I've had 3 of them. All three of them were rough and very shoddy accuracy for the first 150 rounds. Then they shot well for the next 900, and by 1K rounds they were done for. For cals I had one 25/06 tube and 2 7 Mashburn Super tubes. I tend to be very anal about cleaning and how I take care of a tube. But, I do do more than a fair amount of shooting each year. I did call Douglas to say hey I've always heard good things about you but what do you think about how these tubes went for me? I was honestly not trying to get into a match to see who could pee the farthest. And I honestly wanted to hear their thoughts on this! I was met with hostility and attitude and with a feeling that the fella was for sure PMS'n. He basically did not want to listen to what I had to say at all and told me "hell I've burned out STW tubes in 75 rounds". 3 strikes and you're out with me, I had three bad tubes and then the I had the conversation with the fella that obviously flunked Dale's courses. No mas for me. I honestly believe that for the casual shooter,(one who doesn't run many rounds a year thru them) that they will do just fine with either. I've also heard many good stories about Douglas but I've yet to find a shooting fanatic that runs thru a tube every 2-3 years who uses Douglas. I like to treat people in a certain way and pretty much demand to be treated with equal respect. Douglas is IME clueless when it comes to the concept of customer service. Make it your best day and good luck with your project. Mark D | |||
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Mark, Not looking for a quarrel, but perhaps your anal cleaning and/or hot loads ruined your barrels? The 26-06 and 7mm Mashburn!!! Several major gunsmiths recommend them? And he did say HUNTING barrel! I agree that were I looking for a benchrest barrel, I'd probably go Krieger, and stainless at that. Now don't get me wrong, I have two PacNor barrels and can't tell the difference between them and my Douglas barrels. I.T.&D. did all the work. I DON'T DEAL DIRECTLY WITH DOUGLAS!Or any other barrel maker. Dave at I.T.&D.is too easy to work with for that!  | |||
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Don-I've treated tubes from other makers in the same manner, I've yet to experience from any of the others (Lilja, Hart, Krieger, Schneider, Shilen and a couple of more)anything like what I did with Douglas. No perhaps I got the only 3 bad tubes that they've ever made but somehow I seriously doubt it. When I said "anal about cleaning" I mainly state that so someone wouldn't pop up and say. hey if you knew how to clean the darn things...blah blah blah. I've also used the similar rounds in other tubes and have had no issues. Most of the rounds that I work with have some zip to them, no doubt about it. I do keep the loads within what I feel is acceptable working limits so in all honesty I do not buy into the you use hot rock rounds and that is why you had issues. These tubes have all been on hunting rigs, I just like to get close to 1K rounds a year thru a couple of these rigs yearly so as to keep in shape and intimate with the rifles. Lastly I do understand that some of the bigger makers like NULA do use Douglas tubes. I say good for them, I also believe that the majority of the fellas with a rig like that are not running 1K rounds a year thru the tube. They get them sighted in and take them hunting. If they get 1K rounds every 7 or 8 years they are most likely doing well. I like the NULA but I would not order one from him if he would not use a tube of my choice. And obviously Doulgas aint in the game for me. Gotta run make it your best day guys. I am only trying to let others know what I experienced with the Douglas brand. People are empowered to make up their own mind. Mark D | |||
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Oops that I know of none of the major gunsmiths out there (Simillian, Echols, Miller etc) recommend the Douglas brand. If my smith wanted me to use a Douglas I would either convince him that I am the customer and or I would find another smith. Mark D | |||
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I don't doubt you one bit, Mark! And would never question your abilities, even at cleaning the barrel. I was just making suggestions to be considered as possible explanations. And I must confess, a thousand rounds in one particular rifle is a lifetime of shooting for me! Regards, Don | |||
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i found customer service at pac nor to be great. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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No sweat Don, this gun gack gets to be a bit much from time to time don't it. Mark D (on a side note my old 700 Mashburn is on its 8th tube now and will be retubed in the 1st qtr of 07 or perhaps 2nd qtr | |||
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Nah! It's the variety of experiences that allow for "informed" decisions. And we all seem to value information differently. All of us owning the same rifle with the same ammo would be quite boring! I just like to see differences in experiences, and thus differing conclusions discussed in a gentlemanly manner. We can disagree without being rude! Since I shoot each of my rifles a whole lot less than others here, I value learned opinions. But, I'm afraid, like many others, I don't take good advice sometimes!   | |||
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Mark, what load are you running in your Mashburn now? I am still using Hagel's load of 7828 and the 160 partition. Craig | |||
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What I found amusing about Douglas barrels is that they charge extra for their air guaging and extra for a particularly straight barrel, while other makers (Hart, Lilja, Krieger) will destroy barrels that don't meet those standards. At the moment the only aftermarket barrel I have is a Hart (26" #5 profile) in 7mm Rem Mag on a remington 700. As for PacNor? I'd love to try one of their 5R rifled barrels or one of their polygon barrels, but so many choices, so little money.... AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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I wasn't aware that some companies destroy their barrels that are not straight to 1/10,000" Not to argue but I'm not at all sure it's important about all these specs.....what's important is how it performs..... The two most impressive factory built rifles (in terms of accuracy) in my life have been the Savage 110 series of bolt actions and the Remington 788 rifles. Both of these rifles sold for less than the cost of an uninstalled FTC Douglas XX grade blank!!!!! It really makes me wonder how important the barrel is to the system's accuracy! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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 FWIW! The best shooting rifle I ever had was a 22 Varminter with a Douglas supreme barrel. Have had a number since than that would serve adequately in hunting rifles but than so would many of the ABs I've got. Many would consider me a Utilitarian ( That's not a religion ,John) and perhaps they are correct. If a barrel does a job I really don't care if it does it standing on its head or not.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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IMHO Pac-Nor is THE way to go They took VERY good care of me recenlty on a bad barrel, they replaced it and it now shoots like gang busters  This speaks volumes of them.You can't kill them setting on the couch. | |||
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My smith prefers douglas, and has built me rifles in 25,06 and .257 roberts , with standard Douglas barrels. The Roberts is on an 03 springfield, and I laughed like hell when i finaly found a bullet it would not shoot well, Its very very accurate but is a little slow on the velocity, My 25,06 is 26 inch on a MK 10. It took me awhile to find a load for it , but when i went to IMR-4350 and RL-19 it started shooting very well. My only Pac-Nor is a .270 on a pre 64 featherweight action, its been a dissapointment. But the folks at pac nor are real nice indeed and I think I was just unlucky...tj3006...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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I'll stop at Douglas and shoot the bull on occasion (seen a couple of fellow poster's rifles in for a tube job  ). They know a lot about putting a hole thru a piece of steel.Everyone has bad days, that's why the millitary orders bunches of barrels from all the major makers and then selects the best one for precision rifles. No one get's it right all the time. I've learned that making good barrels is 50% science and 50% voodoo. The "airguage" bit is so simple you go "duh!" the first time you see it done. They push air thru the barrel and run a probe of know diameter thru the bore which allows air to pass between the probe's end and the bore. The inner bore diameter can vary from one end to another due to uneven stress relief and bad juju. By monitoring the amount of air that makes it thru you can how consistent the barrel's bore diameter is. Your $35.00 pays for someone to got thru barrels looking for one that is true to 0.0001". They actually have very few that aren't, if you don't pay for "airguaged" you'll probably get one anyway as they won't hold your order waiting for a non-airworthy one to be made. It wasn't that way in the old days but QC has gotten better over the years. Their biggest cash crop is selling unfinished barrel blanks, they can control the dimensions until it leaves the shop, then the fellow who cuts away everything that doesn't look like a barrel has to do it right or things go awry. As to making recommendations, it's a damned if you do and damned of you don't thing, they'll make what you want and they get some strange requests... I've heard good things about Pac-Nor, but all my barrels are factory or Douglas and you just have to push a cleaning patch thru one to feel the difference. | |||
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I've owned krieger ,lilja,douglas,pac-nor and shilen. In a sporter weight rifle. You won't see jackshit for a differance in performance. Krieger tends to have the best quality control,but thats a non issue in most cases. You'd have to be a smith installing thousands of barrels,before you came across one that needed to be sent back,from any of the major brands. Rechambering an exsisting factory barrel,often does wonders,along with lapping the barrel. | |||
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IME for the heavy user you will see a difference, for the casual shooter you're right you won't notice "Jack". Mark D | |||
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FWIW, my gunsmith builds a few really high end rifles a year & switched from Douglas Match to PacNor after build two for me. He feels they are better finished inside & out. I have 4 PN bbl. rifles now & have nothing but good things to say about them all. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Yep Fred I always kind of thought you to be the intelligent sort....grins Mark D | |||
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Of the smiths I've used,shilen has been mentioned more times as being hit or miss in quality. Personally,I use nothing but krieger anymore. I don't believe douglas is that great,but as far as wear goes. I've seen douglas produce the same accuracy and barrel life in AR's being used in High Power,as I've seen from krieger and others. High power runs more center fire rounds then even the most active bolt gun user. | |||
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Sledder-if you have a moment take and read my initial post on this subject a ways up and you will see why I am no fan of the Douglas. Some say friends don't let friends drink and I drive. I say friends don't let friends run Douglas tubes.... At any rate pay for what you like and I will do the same. Make it your best day! Mark D | |||
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Forbes will supply any barrel on the NULA that you want - he just won't guarantee it the way he will a Douglas. The reason, Forbes relates, is that the other barrels are his from blank onwards after he orders it, regardless of how they turn out. He can reject "bad" Douglases and not have to eat the price. As for lapping, again according to Forbes, Dougls believes that "if you know how to build a barrel, you don't have to lap it." Personally, I have no opinion. I have a NULA with a Douglas; it's accurate enough for my purposes and easy enough to clean. I expect Mark's right that I won't get 1000 rounds through this particular rifle for several years. Jaywalker | |||
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I've read your original post Mark. As for forbes and Nula. I would imagine that relationship with douglas,is nice to have. Cooper at one time had a similar relationship with shilen. Rifle smithing is like most business. You have guys like Miller and Echols who no doubt have talent and play a client base into paying idiotic prices for reworked M70's with krieger barrels. Then you have guys like forbes,running his own actions and douglas barrels for a fraction of the cost and achieving the same performance. | |||
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No not in direct proportionAn AB or a Shaw may do you just fine in a hunting rifle. The Sophisticates may say neigh but they have trouble relating to anything that will not give them pin point accuracy at unreasonable distances. This ain't all bad but you will have to answer the question ," is it needed?" Most times it is not.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Yeah, that's why I am moving to Montana sooner than later.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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In my experience the Pac Nor will have better (faster turnaround time) service and seem to shoot as well as any, a lot of custom smiths have switched to them. This is partly due to quicker delivery times; A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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