After Googling a while looks as though everybody out there has had safety issues except Weatherby. I did not run across them in the gov buyer beware area. One that I never would have guessed was that nearly 5,000,000 of a particular rifle will fire accicentally in 3 different ways. It was corrected in 1992 and in all the years of production of this centerfire the safety mechanism was designed for a rimfire.
Any guesses who made it and which model?
Go google for a while.

I also prefer a side safety. I know the 3 position safety, especially with the firing pin lock, is safer. But I can't get over the awkwardness (for me) of having the gun sighted at an animal, and having to reach up with my shooting hand to switch off the safety.

I still like the Model 70, and have several.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:

How about sharing the details of your analysis with us?
What is the "exact problem" with the design?

quote:

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/Firearms.pdfhttp://www....m/view.cfm/Topic=523

From this link, "The page cannot be found."

quote:

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/digitaldiscovery/library/spoliation/lewy.html

From this Link, "I am not satisfied that it demonstrates the complete indifference to or conscious disregard for the safety of others so as to establish the predicate for punitive damages. Accordingly, I respectfully dissent from Part II A of the opinion as I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to support an award of punitive damages."

quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/02/07/eveningnews/main270170.shtml

From this Link, "the inside of the rifle to be heavily rusted, and the trigger engagement screw, safety lever and fire control mechanism all had been either adjusted or removed and reinstalled after the rifle left the factory."

Darn shame you didn't bother to read the Links, cause I get a different impression from your Google Search. Plus, quoting cbs news is no different than quoting directly from the idiots - belk and auggy.

But you totally neglected to answer the second question, "What is the "exact problem" with the design?" No need to Google anything, just tell us from your great and vast knowledge on Remington Triggers, what is wrong with them? Since you are so willing to BASH them, surely you know.

I didn't buy a Yugo either when they first came out. One need not have {sic} "vast knowledge" to avoid pitfalls so you can quit your trademark sarcasm. Thankfuly, I can research and draw my own conclusions.

My Remington experience was limited to ONE rifle that I quickly sold. It was a Remington Classic in 35 Wheelen that I waited for and wanted real bad. Unfortunately the locking lug slots had been overcut so the bolt would stick when rotated to the open position. I understand this could happen to any rifle, BUT when coupled with al the articles I read (plus I really dislike the looks of that hideous safety) I went to the site again http://www.consumerfed.org ( go to the safety section and it's apdf file) but here's the quote:

"Remington Model 700 Bolt-Action Rifles. The Remington 700 is the most popular bolt-action
hunting rifle. Yet the rifle contains two design defects, which cause the rifle to fire
unintentionally when the gun is jarred or when the bolt of the gun is moved. In 1994 a Texas
jury awarded $15 million in punitive damages to a hunter who shot himself in the foot when a
Remington Model 700 rifle discharged without the trigger being pulled. The plaintiff uncovered
company documents which revealed that Remington was aware the rifle contained a defect that
allowed it to fire without the trigger being pulled—but chose not to market a safer design it had
developed. Documents also showed that Remington refused to recall the gun even though its
own internal product safety committee determined that many pre-1975 Model 700s could fire
without the trigger being pulled."

Here's another one: http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=523 and the quote:

"Without much publicity, Remington has settled dozens of lawsuits arising from defects in its Model 700 Rifle. Many of these lawsuits blamed the gun's unusual safety and trigger mechanism, which could "trick" the weapon into firing without pulling the trigger.

A recent story by CBS News highlighted the Model 700's problem. The story chronicled the tragedy of a Montana family. Barb Barber accidentally shot her son in the stomach when her Model 700 rifle misfired. She simply pulled the gun's safety mechanism off and the gun unexpectedly discharged, killing her young son Gus.

A 1979 internal Remington corporate memo acknowledged that approximately 1% of the nearly 2 million Model 700 rifles could unexpectedly misfire."



That, coupled with the (ad nauseam) glued on bolt handle, puny sheet metal extractor was enough for me. jorge

quote:

Any guesses who made it and which model?

I couldn't find it. Could you please let us know!

Hey jorge, You have still not answered my question, "What is the "exact problem" with the design?"

Since I've asked two times now and you have ignored the question, are we to surmise that you are bashing something you really don't know anything about?

Never mind, that is another question and it does not appear you are doing real well at answering questions about your position.

quote:

Originally posted by jnemmers:

quote:

Any guesses who made it and which model?

I couldn't find it. Could you please let us know!

The model 94 Win.

Gee Hot Core, it's so simple, even a caveman can understand it. The rifle can GO OFF when taken off safe, but here it is again: "The Remington 700 is the most popular bolt-action
hunting rifle. Yet the rifle contains two design defects, which cause the rifle to fire
unintentionally when the gun is jarred or when the bolt of the gun is moved."

Hope that clears it for you and I'm done here. My apologies to cavemen. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gee Hot Core, it's so simple, even a caveman can understand it. The rifle can GO OFF when taken off safe, but here it is again: "The Remington 700 is the most popular bolt-action
hunting rifle. Yet the rifle contains two design defects, which cause the rifle to fire
unintentionally when the gun is jarred or when the bolt of the gun is moved."

Hope that clears it for you and I'm done here. My apologies to cavemen. jorge

nothing is idiot proof. who the hell would point a rifle at someone when they knew they it was fully loaded. thats just asking for trouble.

I wouldnt trust mine or anyone elses life on a rifle safety no matter what make it was.

As a matter of interest, on another Forum called Outdoors Best or something, a newbe asked about the Rem 700. Last I read about 20 replies said how wonderful, reliable, accurate popular,etc. they were.

I don't think they're allowed to be negitive over there.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
...the rifle contains two design defects, which cause the rifle to fire unintentionally when the gun is jarred or when the bolt of the gun is moved." Hope that clears it for you...

Hey jorge, I'll agree that it must have been the way I worded the question. At the risk of not writing this sophisticated enough for you, What are the two design defects?

Are the "design defects":
1. Broken or worn parts.
2. Improper adjustment.
3. Dirt, trash or rust in the mechanism.

nothing is fool prufe given a suficiently talented fool.

ok all you swing safty experts if you put a rubber band around the trigger to hold it down simulating dirt rust wd-40 residue or mis adjustment by home gunsmith. when you flip the safty to the off position does your rifle fire ?
I think it does. just like the remington. so you have the ability to unlock and open the bolt without taking the rifle off safe that is an advantage but if your rifle fires when safty is turned off what is the difference?
it is not and never will be any more safe than the person holding it. the safty on a rifle is between the shooters ears not under the shooters thumb.

I still hate the safty on the m70. but am no big fan of the 700 either but you did not ask me that.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
...the rifle contains two design defects, which cause the rifle to fire unintentionally when the gun is jarred or when the bolt of the gun is moved." Hope that clears it for you...

Hey jorge, I'll agree that it must have been the way I worded the question. At the risk of not writing this sophisticated enough for you, What are the two design defects?

Are the "design defects":
1. Broken or worn parts.
2. Improper adjustment.
3. Dirt, trash or rust in the mechanism.

IIRC, it's a geometry thing, as well as poor workmanship (stamped parts, sloppy fit etc). but it's not really important what the technical reason(s) are. The trigger is obviously unsafe. The rem 700 family of guns has had more reported AD's than all other rifles. As I understand it, it's one of the reasons, Dupont got rid of Remington. (All the liability hanging over them from the 700).
The entire action is designed for cheap manufacture & has a lot more design flaws than just the trigger, IMO. Of course that's just my opinion as a gunsmith. I realize it must be a favorite of yours & you feel obligated to defend it and that's fine, as long as you allow other viewpoints as well ). They are (in their favor) usually very accurate rifles out of the box. FWIW, it's not Remington bashing. I like their shotguns & some of the 22's they've made in the past. The CF autos & 700 family, I don't like at all.

Greg, I've seen you post about Remington 700s before and you are obviously against them. I'd like you to point out you source or show us the data that backs up this statement:

quote:

The rem 700 family of guns has had more reported AD's than all other rifles

I disagree as their are many rifles that have had their fair share of ADs. Matter of fact I've personally heard just as many stories of Savage Bolts and ADs as 700s. I own an Old Springfield 22lr that's not the safest bolt action by any means as well. You can make just about any rifle AD if improper care or home grown tinkering are the culprits, it's not just the 700.

Another thing that's wrong with that statement is the fact that their are more 700s out there than the other bolts on the market. The shear number in existence will amplify the amount of failure. If you speak in terms of percentage of failures, the 700 safety is probably much safer than many other rifles on the market.

The model 700 is still on top of the heap when it comes to bolt action rifles. The "Cheap" theory I hear some preach no longer cuts it, just about all of the popular brands are producing rifles in the same price range as the Remington and IMO most of them are garbage when compared.

Have a Good One,

Reloader

Fellows, it's time to quit. I must admit I should be going to "Remington's anonymous" for my admitted pathological dislike of 700s.

I suppose that 35 Wheelen Classic I purchased and described in the post above that was such a dog, plus all the other real and or exaggerated problems with 700s left a permanent impression.

I firmly believe the 700 was a cost cutting design over Remington's previous model, just like the post-64s were for Winchester.

I don't dislike PFs, hell I have a vault full of Weatherbys and have taken them to africa and elsewhere, but overall, I prefer CRFs. Aesthetically they look nicer to me and I am convinced they offer a higher level of reliability.

I think Remington's bolt and safety look "cheap" but tht is an opinion and not nessesarily a "fact" I know. And yes I've seen a couple that had the bolt come unglued at the range and extractor failures. I'm sure Model 70s and Brownings, Weatherbys, et al, have had failures too. I've just never seen them or experienced them. When Proffesional PHs by an overwhelming number prefer CRFs, I take that into consideration as well.

All of the above are facts as I saw them and not emotion but this is and I'll put it another way: if one were to tell me Remingtons walked on water, I would reply "yeah, that's because they can't swim." Cheers, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
nothing is fool prufe given a suficiently talented fool.

ok all you swing safty experts if you put a rubber band around the trigger to hold it down simulating dirt rust wd-40 residue or mis adjustment by home gunsmith. when you flip the safty to the off position does your rifle fire ?
I think it does. just like the remington. so you have the ability to unlock and open the bolt without taking the rifle off safe that is an advantage but if your rifle fires when safty is turned off what is the difference?
it is not and never will be any more safe than the person holding it. the safty on a rifle is between the shooters ears not under the shooters thumb.

I still hate the safty on the m70. but am no big fan of the 700 either but you did not ask me that.

There is no housing around a M70 trigger to hold all the crud you're talking about. Just don't hunt with a rubberband around the trigger and you'll be fine with a M70.

Terry

I keep my rifles clean and working also free of rubberbands but thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Greg, I've seen you post about Remington 700s before and you are obviously against them. I'd like you to point out you source or show us the data that backs up this statement:

quote:

The rem 700 family of guns has had more reported AD's than all other rifles

I disagree as their are many rifles that have had their fair share of ADs. Matter of fact I've personally heard just as many stories of Savage Bolts and ADs as 700s. I own an Old Springfield 22lr that's not the safest bolt action by any means as well. You can make just about any rifle AD if improper care or home grown tinkering are the culprits, it's not just the 700.

Another thing that's wrong with that statement is the fact that their are more 700s out there than the other bolts on the market. The shear number in existence will amplify the amount of failure. If you speak in terms of percentage of failures, the 700 safety is probably much safer than many other rifles on the market.

The model 700 is still on top of the heap when it comes to bolt action rifles. The "Cheap" theory I hear some preach no longer cuts it, just about all of the popular brands are producing rifles in the same price range as the Remington and IMO most of them are garbage when compared.

Have a Good One,

Reloader

My data is just that; Mine From 40 years of gunsmithing. I've had dozens of customers report ad's with the 700 family (probably close to 100 over the years) and I could count those from all the others (BA CF's) combined on one hand. It's also the one with the most lawsuits pending, by far.
I'm sure you are experienced as well and have your own "data".
The 700 is the cheapest rifle I know of to produce. It's why Rem is still in business )
I also see a few 700 family (700's 721, 722, 600, 660 etc) (soldered on) bolt handles falling off each year and replace about 10-12 cheap c-clip extractors a year. I can't recall the last failure of another brand extractor in a BA center fire rifle. Also have a few frozen actions come in every year as well.
I don't really need "data" with first hand experience. But I'd bet there's plenty of it out there. My gunsmithing friends around the country, report similar experiences with "lemon hundreds".
Of course, this is still my opinion & I'm sure you think they are the greatest thing since the cartridge. I respect your opinions, even if I disagree with them. This is an opinion forum, IIRC.

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
I keep my rifles clean and working also free of rubberbands but thanks

Your welcome

That's Funny Greg, I know several Gunsmiths as well and none of them talk of the problems you speak of Guess they are just inexperienced as well. You speak as if your experience as a gunsmith makes you superior to others on all fire arms, hogwash! I've seen some so called "gunsmiths" that I probably would not even let clean my rifles Your opinion is no different than the rest of us gun gurus around the globe.

I'm still waiting on you to show us that DATA to back up your claims....

There are piles of lawsuits against every major gun maker in the business and every single one of those gun makers has piles of failures every year as any other man made tools....


Reloader

Usually I don,t wander into this forum but it was such a catchy title .......I don,t hate the model 70 saftey .. But I don,t trust it......The only 3 safteys that I have found to be reliable were the original mauser, like on the 96 and 98 mausers,, 17 Enfield/model 30 Remington And the Ruger 77mk 2 .. The best feature of the m70 saftey is its ability to easily remove the fireing pin from the bolt....CZ included that feature into their rifles but with a thumb catch that stays out of the way until needed....Its # 4 on my list....The 77mk 2 is the only saftey that has NEVER come off full safe until I took it off,,,,But always came off easily when I needed it to .. ...And I,ve needed them to many times....I do like the bolt lock down option also...The safest saftey is not allowing the muzzel to point at someone or something you don,t want to kill .......And hence I do not feel overly encumbered or put out by the model 700 saftey but I can easily see why some people want to spend hundreds of dollars to put a different saftey on theirs.....They end up with a saftey almost as good as what come on a Ruger .,.,.,.,.,.,...My biggest problem with the model 70 saftey is it is so easy to break.. If you have the rifle on full safe and unwittingly give the bolt a good jerk like you would to chamber a round the saftey will break , and I,ve seen rifles that wouldn,t shoot after that......I was young and stupid once you see......But it can still happen.......... I would gladley trade the safteys on all my firles for something such as the Kreigoff Combi Cocking System.......While on the subject of rifle safety how many reading this who walk around hunting with someone give them the curtisy of carring your rifle backwards if they are in front????????or carrying it at shoulder arms , like in boot camp ....Any way but pointed at the people you are with /// It is something to THINK about.......

What are the two design defects?

Are the "design defects":
1. Broken or worn parts.
2. Improper adjustment.
3. Dirt, trash or rust in the mechanism.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:
IIRC, it's a geometry thing, as well as poor workmanship (stamped parts, sloppy fit etc). but it's not really important what the technical reason(s) are.

Hey Greg, Unless a person knows what the Technical Reasons for a problem, how is it possible to repair anything? Do you just toss away the old one and sell the guys that come to you for "Repairs" new rifles?

You say it is a "Geometry thing". If that is true, how come 4+ million are doing just fine? Is it a clintonian Geometry Conspiracy?

You say it is "Stamped Parts". Are you implying that any part that is Stamped in any rifle is worthless? Only "hand-fitted", cut from a billet, parts are worth having? How are the magazines and followers in M70s made?

You say it is a "Sloppy Fit". Are you saying some "non-specification parts" are creating a problem?

quote:

The trigger is obviously unsafe.

A bit of an explaination would be mighty helpful for us Cavemen. Surely with a statement like that you are able to describe in vivid detail what is "obviously unsafe". I know a bunch of Deer, Black Bears and Hogs that would "have" agreed with you.

quote:

The rem 700 family of guns has had more reported AD's than all other rifles. As I understand it, it's one of the reasons, Dupont got rid of Remington. (All the liability hanging over them from the 700).

Interesting to me because I've never heard that before. Even more interesting because I remember why DuPont was in need of Funds at that time, and it had to do with a bunch of Indians being killed by a DuPont Chemical Plant EXPLOSION. How do you suppose that got spin-doctored into a Remington problem?

quote:

The entire action is designed for cheap manufacture

Just seems like an excellent idea to make the World's Finest production rifle - $$$ affordable $$$ - to over 4 million people. How is that a BAD IDEA???

You seem to be saying if they were designed to cost a lot to manufacture, then they would be fine. Kind of like the old (rag) hand-assembled and fitted P-64 M70s which few people were buying - because of the cost - and nearly put them under, back then. Come to think of it, how is the M70 production doing today?

quote:

& has a lot more design flaws than just the trigger, IMO. Of course that's just my opinion as a gunsmith.

What are those "other Design Flaws"? Three Rings of Steel? Smooth button rifled barrels? The fastest production Trigger on the market? High retained resale value? Typically excellent out-of-the-box accuracy? Extremely functional Recoil Pads? Excellent stock designs?

Huuummm, come to think of it, I can see why a GunSmith would dislike that overall package.

quote:

I realize it must be a favorite of yours & you feel obligated to defend it and that's fine, as long as you allow other viewpoints as well ).

I've got no control over other folks views, and I've certainly got no desire at all to have you or Jorge quit posting your opinions. If you all will just answer the questions about the "Technical Reasons", I might be able to learn why we have a difference of opinion.

It won't do to try running False Statements into the discussion(like the DuPont misunderstanding), but I don't blame you for that error. I feel sure you did hear it somewhere and rather than challenge it, were ready to accept it. A lot of folks get "fooled" about the Facts.

quote:

They are (in their favor) usually very accurate rifles out of the box. FWIW, it's not Remington bashing.

See there, we AGREE about two things; 1. They are accurate. 2. Saying they are accurate is not bashing.

quote:

I like their shotguns & some of the 22's they've made in the past.

Me too.

quote:

The CF autos & 700 family, I don't like at all.

With a bit of time and well thought out "Technically Accurate Responses", perhaps we can run you through a good ole fashion, meeting on the grounds, tent revival, and get you to Reloader's level of Remington appreciation.
---

All right, lay those "Technical Responses" on us and perhaps Jorge will explain them to me.

Good Remington Hunting and clean 1-shot Remington Kills.

Hot Core,
You sure put a lot into that post. I assume you must shoot Rems like me.

Hey Dwight, Actually, I've got a bunch of "different" manufacturers firearms. But, I do like those $$$ Affordable $$$ - highly accurate, extremely well designed Remington firearms.

Looks like everyone would.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Greg, Unless a person knows what the Technical Reasons for a problem, how is it possible to repair anything? Do you just toss away the old one and sell the guys that come to you for "Repairs" new rifles?

Remington Kills.

You don't repair Remington triggers! You absolutely throw those worthless triggers in the trash and put a decent one on the gun.
Most of your post didn't deserve answers as the statements are manifestations of your blind love of 700 type actions & nothing anyone can say will change your mind. There is no factual basis for your loyalty but you are welcome to it. Maybe you should start a forum for the protection of "lemon hunderds" to organize a campaign to get people to stop quoting all the reasons they are dangerous, and unreliable etc, etc..
My experience is first hand and I wouldn't have one for a hunting rifle. I don't even care to hunt around one.
As a gunsmith, I should really love them. I've bought a lot of guns & even a truck or 2 with the $ I've made from repairing remingtons
"That's all I got ta say about that"
Forest Gump

quote:

"Ain't nobody ever made a thin dime givin' folks what they need... Ya gotta give em what they want" Angel, on "The Rockford Files"

Quote of the day

Terry

Y'all are all wrong about the safety/litigation. The reason Remington was sued is 'cause there were a lot of 700's and Remington had the deepest pockets (was it part of DuPont at the time?). The safety lawsuit was right up there with the one in which the 870 was alleged to be unsafe. 'Unsafe' barrels as I recall.

Follow the money.

or follow the people that got shot

I have Ruger Mk2s and Winchester Mod 70s and prefer the Winchester three position safeties.
That said I also like the tang safety on the older Rugers. I learned on a Mod 71 Winchester
348 and its half cock safety...also the Mod 94
and they all are fine. But I take the safety off way before any animal could hear it..so I am ready to go on my terms...Shoot a lot of Trap and have no safety on my BT-99 Trap gun
and do not need it nor would I want it. Auto safeties are an abomination... I disconnect all of the auto safeties on my hunting over unders and side by sides.. I do it manually.
As another said...the best safety is between the ears. Blessings.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
---

All right, lay those "Technical Responses" on us and perhaps Jorge will explain them to me.

Good Remington Hunting and clean 1-shot Remington Kills.

One of the better descriptions of the trigger/safety:

- "The Remington safety locks only the sear from movement, or what is known as a sear operating safety. When the safety is engaged it cams the sear slightly forward off the sear/trigger notch. This allows the trigger "room" to reset and engage the sear after it is pulled with the safety on. (everybody does it) The failure with this system is that if tolerances are such or the slightest bit of debris finds it's way into the trigger housing, the trigger will fail to reset and engage the sear.

Remington uses a device they call a trigger connector. This a piece of flat steel over the trigger and only the edge of the steel connector engages the sear notch. This connector is held against the trigger with a small spring.

After the trigger is pulled only slightly (with the safety off) this connector disengages from the sear notch and is forced forward away from the sear by sear spring force, against the small spring holding it. This allows a "crisp" trigger pull because the trigger only moved a small amount (no creep) and all the movement over a rough sear/connector notch is taken up by this forced movement of the sear connector. Sort of like we start the sear release then it has a mind of it's own and just goes! So...what would be a creepy trigger pull is a short, light, crisp trigger. That is until something goes wrong.

If the shooter has the safety engaged and pulls the trigger, the gun doesn't fire, all is well. But what happens at times is, the connector has just left the sear notch but the sear cannot fall because the safety is holding it up. Sear operating safety. Now all we have to do is take the safety off and BOOM!!! Big surprise! You can try this in the privace of your own shooting range, at home. Please unload your Remington first.

If all this sounds like a good trigger system to you, then by all means continue to buy Remington 700's if not....well I'm not trying to rain on Remington owners parade here.

I have been able to duplicate this many times. That is with many different Remington M700 rifles. It likely has to do with the ill mix of adjustments or mal-adjustments of the trigger.

I had a friend, (elementry school buddy) who carried a fully loaded M700, 270 Win in the back seat of his Chevy extended cab. His 16 year old son was standing beside the truck putting on his orange vest. Dad reaches back to lift the rifle over the seat, as he got out of the truck....... The round went through the side of the truck before striking his son in the chest.

Many things went wrong here.
A rifle in the truck with a round in the chamber. DON"T DO IT!
The muzzle was pointed at another person. DON"T DO IT!
The rifle was picked up by grabbing at the shooting position of the stock.

We think he pushed the safety forward with the webb of his hand.
We think the trigger was not pulled, not then anyway.
We were able to duplicate the; pull the trigger, safety off, BOOM! (actually click) scenario many times. Eight of ten tries the gun would relaese the sear as the safety was taken off. The rifle was sent to Remington to "examine for defects" After my examination of it. "The trigger mechanism was improperly adjusted after it left the factory" was their finding.

After nine years it cost the big green three point four, with a capitol "M".

No way to bring back a son and no reprieve from gross negligence. The shooter took his own life some years after the incident.

Is Remington a player in this? I think so. Good gun handling skills will compensate for the shoddiest of equipment, everytime. The reverse can never be true. No mechanical device can ever compensate for incompetance or negligence. A good shooter with inferior equipment will trump a poor shooter with the best rifle in the in the world."
- Murphy
__________________

jorge is not just making stuff up. There are quite a few who've had bad experiences w/ big green. Some of it is subjective and some not. I've had fairly good luck and have only experienced a frozen trigger and a bolt that came open. But, just to share a bit of experiences of a few other well traveled end users:

- "In the lower 48 the Remingtons worked flawlessly. My first trip to Kodiak proved otherwise. Every trip to Kodiak where either my son or I took a Remington rifle we had problems with our triggers freezing up."
- Randy

- B/R shooters roots go back to Remington because Mike Walker was design engineer for Remington back in the forty's, fifty's and sixty's and he was a champion B/R shooter. He brought about the #1 B/R round (and the first real winner)...the 222 Rem. He designed the 700 action for ease of manufacture. You will look for a long while before you find a serious B/R shooter with a Remington rifle today. You will see Hart, Borden, Nesika, and many other custom actions and all are custom barrels.
- Trivial Facts

- Wieland: "Dangerous Game Rifles"
On Remington:
"...word is that the machinery on which the (Remington) 700 is built is on its last legs, with a resulting drastic slip in quality. Jarrett (Beanfield Rifles) told me in 2003 that he would no longer build a rifle on a 700 because the new actions are so ramshackle"
- book

"I need some advice here. I have a Remington Model 7 in .300 SAUM. Last year just before deer hunting the bolt handle broke off at the range."
- unhappy consumer

http://www.gad.net/Celt/BoltMod/toreoff.jpg

- We borrowed a friends Remington 700 for last weeks sheep hunt and we had problem with the bolt always wanting to open. I knew about this before hand but didn't think it would be an issue but it eventually got to a point where the wife had to carry it inside her back pack.
- unhappy user

- "If you want low price and a super accurate gun this gun is for you and this is why it has alway been so popular, certainly not because of its reliabilty under harsh conditions or its safety or Few people today have any conception whatsoever on what a quality bolt action rifle is or should be. The sad facts are that few if any rifles short of custom built Mausers made from scratch can even remotely compare to the Mauser rifle both in terms of quality, safety and reliability under extreme conditions."
-AK gunsmith talk

- "As I stated previously, one of my biggest pet peeves with the 700 is the EJECTOR, which I have personally seen to freeze into the bolt face in cold/wet weather, deform permanently into the bolt face with standard factory REMINGTON loads, and generally fail due to dirt, crap and crud problems.
If the weapon will extract but not eject, you still have a problem on your hands."
- more gunsmith talk

- "The Army dogs I've talked to say that it is about an 800yd rifle, which is certainly nothing to snear at but.... The biggest problem I have with the remington is the magizine box, which is constanly getting jammed when loading fast under stress, not just me happens to just about everybody else too. Also rounds seem to find their way into the left side rail and get stuck there. All things that you do not want to have happen when someone is trying kill you. I prefer the winchester, accuracy is just as good as the remington(under field conditions) and I have had better luck in the reliability dept. Semper Fi..."
- Marine talk

- "Washington state. We built 4 or 5 sniper rifles for the Anchorage PD swat team. Rifles were Remington s/s short action .308's. We then sent out the rifles to Robar in Az. for the m-1a mag conversion and the NP3 finish. Sent said rifles to Alaska to the Anch. PD and soon started getting them back because the bolt handles were coming off. Most if not all failed….."
- sniper talk

- "Let's have some photos of broken bolts so we know exactly whats happening."
- remington talk

- "his 700 accidentally discharged. Three years later, the company paid $800000 to an Alaska hunter who was shot in a similar incident. ..."
- lawsuit talk

I'm sure you can look and find all kinds of stuff on just about any rifle. I do know that persons in my circle rely heavily on variations of the M40 for life and death. But w/ that said, I don't know too many people who rely on the same action for big game in harsh remote conditions if they can afford different. I'm sure that quite a few are used in remote villages by AK natives under brutal conditions, but I would not want to bet my life on one of those.

Don't take this that I'm bashing Rems, just wanted to show that many out there support what jorge was saying.

later,
GVA

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:
...Most of your post didn't deserve answers ...

Hey Greg, I understand your position. If I knew as little about the Technical Aspects of them as you and Jorge, I wouldn't be able to support your position either.

I'm not saying that to make you mad, there are a whole lot of folks that also do not understand.

Best of luck to you enjoying those trucks.

Hey Gary, You have obviously spent a good bit of time saving all the "opinion" comments. No doubt it would be a formidable task to address each one of them.

But, you did an excellent job of listing some of the Technical Aspects concerning the excellent Remington Trigger Assembly. I'll cut through to them.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
- "The Remington safety locks only the sear from movement, or what is known as a sear operating safety. When the safety is engaged it cams the sear slightly forward off the sear/trigger notch. This allows the trigger "room" to reset and engage the sear after it is pulled with the safety on. (everybody does it) The failure with this system is that if tolerances are such or the slightest bit of debris finds it's way into the trigger housing, the trigger will fail to reset and engage the sear.

Excellent layman description, but I'd change "will fail" to "may fail".

Having the Trigger Assembly enclosed protects it from a lot of Trash and Debris that will cause other open style Trigger Designs(M70, Mauser variants, Savage, etc.) to jam or Fail quickly EDIT IN: "may" jam or fail. However, if the enclosed designs(including the aftermarket Triggers) are not periodically cleaned, minute bits of sand, dirt, trash can build up and "may" cause function problems.

quote:

Remington uses a device they call a trigger connector. This a piece of flat steel over the trigger and only the edge of the steel connector engages the sear notch. This connector is held against the trigger with a small spring.

After the trigger is pulled only slightly (with the safety off) this connector disengages from the sear notch and is forced forward away from the sear by sear spring force, against the small spring holding it. This allows a "crisp" trigger pull because the trigger only moved a small amount (no creep) and all the movement over a rough sear/connector notch is taken up by this forced movement of the sear connector. Sort of like we start the sear release then it has a mind of it's own and just goes! So...what would be a creepy trigger pull is a short, light, crisp trigger. That is until something goes wrong.

No, I can see where the Trial Lawyers would encourage people to "get the impression" that the Trigger Assembly is similar to an animate object(living, breathing, with a cognizant ability to think), but that is totally misleading and is an extremely poor choice of words.

It does in fact allow for the "Fastest Lock Time" of any production Trigger Assembly. And the Trigger Assembly still can have creep if the Sear mating surfaces are not proper.

Here is a Key sentence in Gary's post, "That is until something goes wrong." I completely agree. When something "goes wrong" it is possible to have an Accidental Discharge - just the same as on ALL Trigger Designs.

quote:

If the shooter has the safety engaged and pulls the trigger, the gun doesn't fire, all is well. But what happens at times is, the connector has just left the sear notch but the sear cannot fall because the safety is holding it up. Sear operating safety. Now all we have to do is take the safety off and BOOM!!! Big surprise! You can try this in the privace of your own shooting range, at home. Please unload your Remington first.

And when that happens, as Gary said, "Something has gone wrong." And it is either:
1. A worn or broken part.
2. Dirt or trash in the Trigger Assembly.
3. An improper adjustment.

This same list will make ANY Trigger Design in existance subject to Accidental Discharges.

quote:

If all this sounds like a good trigger system to you, then by all means continue to buy Remington 700's if not....well I'm not trying to rain on Remington owners parade here.

No doubt it is a Mechanical Device, an inanimate object, and like ALL Mechanical creations requires some modicum of periodic maintenance.

quote:

I have been able to duplicate this many times. That is with many different Remington M700 rifles. It likely has to do with the ill mix of adjustments or mal-adjustments of the trigger.

Completely agree. If the Trigger Assembly is not Adjusted Properly, you can experience problems. Of course that is true for ALL Trigger Designs.

quote:

I had a friend, (elementry school buddy) who carried a fully loaded M700, 270 Win in the back seat of his Chevy extended cab. His 16 year old son was standing beside the truck putting on his orange vest. Dad reaches back to lift the rifle over the seat, as he got out of the truck....... The round went through the side of the truck before striking his son in the chest.

Many things went wrong here.
A rifle in the truck with a round in the chamber. DON"T DO IT!
The muzzle was pointed at another person. DON"T DO IT!
The rifle was picked up by grabbing at the shooting position of the stock.

We think he pushed the safety forward with the webb of his hand.
We think the trigger was not pulled, not then anyway.
We were able to duplicate the; pull the trigger, safety off, BOOM! (actually click) scenario many times. Eight of ten tries the gun would relaese the sear as the safety was taken off. The rifle was sent to Remington to "examine for defects" After my examination of it. "The trigger mechanism was improperly adjusted after it left the factory" was their finding.

After nine years it cost the big green three point four, with a capitol "M".

No way to bring back a son and no reprieve from gross negligence. The shooter took his own life some years after the incident.

Gary, you have my deepest condolences.

It does indeed sound like an "Improperly Adjusted Trigger", especially when it is repeatable.
---

As Gary said, the rest of his post is arguably opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Don't take this that I'm bashing Rems, just wanted to show that many out there support what jorge was saying.

later,
GVA

Excellent post GVA. It was a comprehensive & objective discussion of the actions. I'm surprised you didn't run across some action freeze ups due to their "3 rings of steel". I've seen quite a few of them where the case head expands & consquently expands the bolt head into the barrel recess. Of course the hapless hunter, wanting to go on hunting, takes a stick of firewood to the bolt handle trying to get it open. The soldered on bolt handle goes flying into the next time zone

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
or follow the people that got shot

And this would be how many....?

ok lets just say you guys are right that remington just is not the answer fine, the m70 safty still blows and the 3 position is for people who would use it as a crutch for unsafe gun handleing. I think that covers both sides .
niether is as good as a safty as the p14 m17 or the cz527 same thing just basackwards.

quote:

Originally posted by rogue1:
The safety lawsuit was right up there with the one in which the 870 was alleged to be unsafe. 'Unsafe' barrels as I recall.

Follow the money.

Don't remember that one (lawsuit), but Rem had to replace @ 60,000 (IIRC) 1100 & 870 barrels that either bulged or split. I saw 20 or so of them. Since they beefed up the barrels, no more split barrels. Some of the ones I saw were "banana peeled" using steel shot loads. Remington admitted they were not "adequate" and replaced them free of charge. I never saw any injuries from them, but that was pure luck. There may well have been some elsewhere.

Don't remember that one (lawsuit), but Rem had to replace @ 60,000 (IIRC) 1100 & 870 barrels that either bulged or split. I saw 20 or so of them. Since they beefed up the barrels, no more split barrels. Some of the ones I saw were "banana peeled" using steel shot loads. Remington admitted they were not "adequate" and replaced them free of charge. I never saw any injuries from them, but that was pure luck. There may well have been some elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

And your drive-by media/lawyer references for this are..........???

The only safety I dont like is the backward one on the CZ's....from what I have read.

Hot Cor says: "Excellent layman description, but I'd change "will fail" to "may fail".

Having the Trigger Assembly enclosed protects it from a lot of Trash and Debris that will cause other open style Trigger Designs(M70, Mauser variants, Savage, etc.) to jam or Fail quickly."



Interesting that when it is Remington, you insist on use of "may fail", but when it is "open style trigger design" it is "will fail".

Your rebuttal is fair except for one big mistake. You want to equate the fact that a Remington "may fail" with a Winchester "may fail". Yes, they both "may fail", but the question is do they fail at the same rate. My personal response would be "no way". Not even close.

You also want to claim that the "open" triggers are more subject to trash. I would disagree. You would have to insert a 2" strip of bailing wire to interfere with a model 70 safety, whereas a model 700 safety could be affected by freezing condensed moisture due to the tight spaces.

I started this topic with the thread "singing the praises of the model 70 safety". Reloader then hi-jacked the thread with his "anyone else hate a model 70 safety". Too bad he did that - all these discussions could have fit under one topic and could have been found under one search. The subject is exactly the same. I never realized that this would become such an emotional topic. It's also instructional how strongly held and diverse opinions are.

You know, my preference is for Ford pickup trucks. But I don't think they get as good gas mileage nor run as fast as a Chevy. I like the Fords (for other reasons), but I can't claim they have the "best" engine. You can prefer 2 position safeties, but that doesn't make them the best safety.

I've not seen anyone claim that the 2 position safety is the best. You can only claim that it is "good enough for you", or that you "like it the best". You can't deny that they have an abysmal safety record. You can't deny that the potential for an accident is far greater. You can claim they are easier to operate. You can claim that you don't need a locked bolt, but that argument has been shot full of holes (pun) in my opinion. I would argue that you may not "need" it, but you ought to "want" it (most people DO want it - witness that Ultra Lite Arms has a 3 position on their model 700 similar rifle and Kimber was forced to change their 2 position to a 3 positon).

Many want to point at the operator rather than the safety. Well, that's one of the biggest job a rifle safety has - to protect against stupidity, be it momentary or permanent, to protect against carelessness, and to protect against accidental accidents (sic).

Love 'em or hate 'em. I'm singing the praises of the Model 70 safety. It is simply the best.

quote:

Originally posted by rogue1:
Don't remember that one (lawsuit), but Rem had to replace @ 60,000 (IIRC) 1100 & 870 barrels that either bulged or split. I saw 20 or so of them. Since they beefed up the barrels, no more split barrels. Some of the ones I saw were "banana peeled" using steel shot loads. Remington admitted they were not "adequate" and replaced them free of charge. I never saw any injuries from them, but that was pure luck. There may well have been some elsewhere.

[/quote]And your drive-by media/lawyer references for this are..........???[/QUOTE]

Er..uh... Remington, your Deity, RECALLED them.... Any other questions? Talk about "unconditional love"... You (& hotcore) have a bad case of it
The gardeners down here in FL have a saying,
"You can lead a horticulture.. but you can't make 'er think"
End of discussion.