An A-Square - 338 A-Square Mag Cal - A Most Interesting Story

Although I always considered A-Square rifles to be "Big Bores" regardless of the caliber, this one is a .338 A-Square Magnum caliber, so I guess its actually a Medium Bore.

The 338 A-Square Magnum is based on a 378 Weatherby Magnum case (460 Wby Mag case) necked down to .338 with a conventional neck and shoulder - with no radius.

I chased this rifle for over 2 months. It was originally listed in the first week of October, on my Birthday. It appeared in my Guns International Search list at a West Coast Cabelas. I called that Gun Library immediately - only "seconds" after I got the email, only to be told that the rifle had been sold the night before, and that it was being shipped to a Mid-West Cabelas store. I could have cried. I really wanted that rifle and it would have been a Birthday present from myself - to myself.

And then ..... 2 months later the same rifle appeared again on my Guns International search. It was at the Mid-West Cabelas Store. Again I called immediately - and said "I wanted it" - please ship it to the Cabelas store here in Wisconsin. (45 minutes North of where I live) Apparently the guy that had it shipped from The West Coast store to the Mid-West store, never picked up the rifle, and it was again relisted for sale. So there, it was finally mine. So seldom in life do you get a second bite at the apple.

Well, a week later I got a call that the rifle had arrived in Wisconsin. But, on this particular day we were having our first snow storm of the season, a real Blizzard. Instead of a 45 minute drive, it took me 2 hours of white-knuckle driving to get to the Wisconsin Cabelas store. But, I wanted it, so I made the trek.

When I got there, I told them my name and that I had been called and told that my rifle had arrived. While they were getting the rifle from the Gun Vault, I start filling out the 4473 form on their computer. As I finished, they showed up with a box that seemed much too small for a large A-Square rifle with a scope. When I inquired about the scope, the guy says; "there's no scope with this rifle." I replied; "there better be a 3.5-10x Leupold, because that's what the description said." Upon opening the box, not only was there NO scope, but out of the box comes a Weatherby Vanguard in 300 WBY MAG caliber. I explained that this was the "wrong" rifle and gave him the Cabelas "code-number" of the rifle that I ordered from the Mid-West Cabelas store. The guy looks up the number, and tells me "that" rifle is at a South-East Cabelas store and it was listed as "sale pending".

I can't go into detail about the comments that were exchanged, but you can imagine how displeased I was, especially after the 2 hour Snow Storm drive. Not to mention that I was now facing another 2 hour adventure to get back home. Well, after about 1-1/2 hours of telephone calls between the Wisconsin Store, and the Mid-West Store, and the South-East store, I was finally promised that a mistake had been made and that "MY" rifle would be shipped to Wisconsin the next day. ..... so I left. It actually took me 2-1/2 hours to get home that evening because the Snow Storm had become more severe into the evening.

And, two days later, I find that the rifle was in fact shipped the next day to Wisconsin, via "Next Day Express". I remained uneasy during my 45 minute drive, and only settled down when I finally got the rifle in my hands, exactly 2 months and one week after its original discovery. Its not too often you get an opportunity to buy an absolutely "MINT" A-Square rifle, with a great Scope attached, for a real good price. Even if it takes 2 months and one week to get it. Only a Gun Collector will understand this. And now it turns out to be a Christmas present from myself - to myself.

Some people think that A-Square rifles are not very stylistic. In fact, some think they are "Butt Ugly", but I really like them. I now have 3 of them in my collection. And this one has the most awesome Tiger-Stripe Walnut Stock that the pictures below can't begin to show.

That is a great rifle and what makes it great is that you love it!

That rifle is nice, I looked at it at the Tualatin, OR store, and considered buying it myself.

Should be a good killer let use know how it shoots and if crony the loads.

I would like to see the velocity you get.

Stix, you beat me to that rifle by a couple hours :-(

Hey, I've got 2 boxes of Wby 460 ammunition I'd sell cheap if you want to use the brass.

I still think its butt ugly and cheaply built and fiddle back claro is not particularly outstanding stock wood. Its a poorly balanced stump, and not IMO even close to what a hunting rifle should be...One of the worlds great rip offs..

.but I respect your decision to like it, as I would hope you respect my decision to not like it..

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Stix, you beat me to that rifle by a couple hours :-(

Hello Biebs,

I'm sure glad I beat you to it. And I'm also sure you were not the only one who missed it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I still think its butt ugly and cheaply built and fiddle back claro is not particularly outstanding stock wood. Its a poorly balanced stump, and not IMO even close to what a hunting rifle should be...One of the worlds great rip offs..

.but I respect your decision to like it, as I would hope you respect my decision to not like it..

Hello Atkinson.

I'm glad you don't like it. That means there is one less person to compete with when collecting these A-Square rifles.

As a side note, of the more than 200 game animals that I've killed in my lifetime of hunting, not a single one has ever commented on the looks of the rifle that killed him.


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Hello to all the rest of you,

Thanks to all for your reply.

I just got back from the range. I did a test run to see how she shoots.

Reloading was a bit of a challenge. No dies or brass anywhere in the entire country and custom dies would be over a year wait. So, I purchased 20 rounds of new Weatherby 338-378 brass along with a set of RCBS reloading dies for the 338-378 WBY. I had to shorten the sizing die, and recut the inside belt clearance. Although they didn't have a set of reloading dies for the 338 A-Square Mag, C-4 did have a set of Form Dies, so I purchased the 338 A-Square Mag #4 Form die from them.

Between the Form Die and the modified Sizing die, I was able to load 20 cartridges. They still had remanants of the radius shoulder and neck, but those would both go-away when fired. I was very consevative in my loading because no data exists for the 160g bullet. I started with 100g of IMR 4831 and will increase in increments of 2 grains to find the max loads. I'm thinking I should be able to get close to 3700 fps with this bullet.

Here's the results. (all 20 cases formed nicely into the rifle's chamber)

quote:

. I started with 100g of IMR 4831 and will increase in increments of 2 grains to find the max loads. I'm thinking I should be able to get close to 3700 fps with this bullet.

100 plus grs of powder a nice flame thrower also 160 copper bullet should kill like lightning at that velocity.

Looking forward to more results.

Hello p dog shooter,

Thanks for the reply.

That bullet has taken about 40 deer here in Wisconsin using my flat-shooting Sako Safari 338 Win Mag at 3350 fps.

I think this rifle will easily out do that one.

Stix, if you want to shoot a 160 grainer, get a 7mm mag....338s were meant for 250-300gr bullets. Elmer Keith told me so :-)

Oops not a win mag, sorry Ray!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Stix, if you want to shoot a 160 grainer, get a 7mm mag....338s were meant for 250-300gr bullets. Elmer Keith told me so :-)

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for the reply.

I do have a 7mm mag, and I shoot it exclusively with 175g Nosler Partitions at 3,000 fps. I also have a 280 OKH experimental rifle that was built by/for and belonged to Elmer Keith.

The original post about that rifle was from 5 years ago on a different site. I reposted it here for interested readers.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3221043/m/7621064732

Hello to all.

I would be curious if anyone else saw this rifle in the Cabelas system over the last 10 weeks or so.

Lets please hear from you.

I saw it while browsing the gun library online. But it was not what I was interested in at the time. Good story about you getting the rifle though!

Hello,

Back from the range today. I'm very happy with the results. Upped the powder charge to 105 grains of IMR 4831 with the same 160g Barnes bullet.



Take a look at the individual readings.

1- 3531 fps
2- 3527 fps
3- 3527 fps
4- 3554 fps
5- 3527 fps

3533 fps ave = 3550 fps corrected to muzzle
11 fps sd

3 of the 5 readings were the same and the standard deviation was 11 fps. Primers were flat but no signs of excessive pressure.

Looks like my prediction of 3700 fps may be attainable.

3-1/2" high at 100 yds = 4-1/2" low at 400 yds
4500 ft/lbs energy at the muzzle with 2050 ft/lbs remaining at 400 yds

I forgot to mention, the muzzle brake on this rifle really works. Recoil is about the same as 308 win.

Buckstix,
I was merely substantuaing your statement that some folks think A Squares are not stylist, and that some folks thank they are plumb butt ugly!! You said it first!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Buckstix,
I was merely substantuaing your statement that some folks think A Squares are not stylist, and that some folks thank they are plumb butt ugly!! You said it first!!

Hello Atkinson,

Thanks for the reply.

As I said, I don't mind that you don't like it, so if you run across any, point them my way. I'd like to add a 577 T-REX to my collection.

Buckstix:

I am really puzzled as to your love of high MV. You don't need it at ranges less than 400, and beyond that you miss due to wind drift. That bullet you are shooting is perhaps the worst you could select in that caliber. The wind drift is anywhere from 50 to 100% more than other bullets you could use.

Hello AnotherAZWriter

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I know all that.

I guess I take after Roy Weatherby and P.O. Ackley and Elmer Keith.

Buckstix,
I promise you I will send them your way if I run across someone in need, and I will protect "your right" to own an ugly rifle with my life! That's what makes a horse race..

Hello Atkinson,

Thanks for the reply.

I thank you for that. And by all means, also pass along any other brands that you think too ugly to own yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Buckstix:

I am really puzzled as to your love of high MV. You don't need it at ranges less than 400, and beyond that you miss due to wind drift. That bullet you are shooting is perhaps the worst you could select in that caliber. The wind drift is anywhere from 50 to 100% more than other bullets you could use.

Even at distance beyond 400 yards, the bullet arrives so fast that it seems there will be very little time for wind to effect drift.

I certainly agree that a heavier bullet might prove advantageous.....say 200-210 grains.....but mostly for retention of energy and not so much wind drift.

quote:

I'd like to add a 577 T-REX to my collection.

I have a friend with one I refuse to shoot it.

He likes max loads and heavy bullets.

My older shoulders say it would not be a smart move.

quote:

I'd like to add a 577 T-REX to my collection.

Wayne at AHR is making them again...he has lots of brass.

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for the reply.

Wayne builds very nice rifles, but I'd like to find one of the original A-Square rifles in 577 T-REX, not a new build.

I've got dies, and I'll contact Wayne for some brass, in anticipation of someday finding an A-Square rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Buckstix:

I am really puzzled as to your love of high MV. You don't need it at ranges less than 400, and beyond that you miss due to wind drift. That bullet you are shooting is perhaps the worst you could select in that caliber. The wind drift is anywhere from 50 to 100% more than other bullets you could use.

Even at distance beyond 400 yards, the bullet arrives so fast that it seems there will be very little time for wind to effect drift.

I certainly agree that a heavier bullet might prove advantageous.....say 200-210 grains.....but mostly for retention of energy and not so much wind drift.

Vapo:

The answer lies in any ballistics program if you haven't seen for yourself...

A Barnes X 160 at 3700 drifts 9.9 MOA in a 20 mph wind at 600 yards. A Hornady ELD 285 at 2800 drifts 5.4 MOA, or nearly half as much. I am not sure what MV Buckstix could get with the 285, but i get that out of my 30 inch bbl Lapua without high pressure.

The other issues is low BC bullets are more impacted by temperature changes. I discovered that long ago shooting my .220 Swift in northern MN year round. In the winter I was getting much larger drops than streamlined 7mm bullets - I plugged the numbers in a ballistics program and saw why. If you plot performance vs BC, there is a point of diminishing returns, but in a way that is good because as temp falls, the change in performance is less than when you are lower on the curve. I rebarreled my Swift to a tight twist and moved to 80 grain bullets. Wind drift was half and temperature impacts much less.

High velocity never beats out higher BC when it comes to wind drift or temperature impacts on trajectory. Or said differently: lighter for caliber bullets are always the worst choice when it comes to wind drift or temperature sensitivity.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
High velocity never beats out higher BC when it comes to wind drift or temperature impacts on trajectory. Or said differently: lighter for caliber bullets are always the worst choice when it comes to wind drift or temperature sensitivity.

As was said earlier, 400 yards and under ..... "machs nix".

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
High velocity never beats out higher BC when it comes to wind drift or temperature impacts on trajectory. Or said differently: lighter for caliber bullets are always the worst choice when it comes to wind drift or temperature sensitivity.

As was said earlier, 400 yards and under ..... "machs nix".

Well, if that is all the farther you are going to shoot then why not a .308? Es machts nichts, nicht wahr?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Well, if that is all the farther you are going to shoot then why not a .308? Es machts nichts, nicht wahr?

Just like the Hornady 285 at 2800 fps, the 308 doesn't shoot flat enough, from zero to 400 yards. It would require range estimation, and an error could result in missing the vitals.

My original post was about my happiness in acquiring a nice flat shooting A-Square rifle, not to debate my choices in reloading the 338 A-Square Mag cartridge or its ballistics.

If you don't like my loads, that's fine. You are free to load and shoot whatever you like, as am I.

And, in my 52 years of hunting, I've never taken a shot over 400 yards in a 20 mile per hour cross wind, and I never will. Hypotheticals like that make no sense.

not much sleep last night, so if this comes over grumpy, please read it as humor, perhaps sardonic, but humor

1: it is likely a piece of california bastogne fiddleback -- dense and hard -- which is desirable in a big kicker for strength and weight --
2: i am chuckling at a 45 minute drive ... my daily commute is nearly twice that, each way --- and 1 drop of rain makes it 2 hours
3: coil chunk stocks, and this may be the nicest one I have seen, usually appear to have been fine sculpted , with a chainsaw, from reject railroad ties, but shaped, in an artistic fashion, to reflect their origin and retain the grace and elegance of the raw materials and tools

glad you like the rifle -- more glad that it shoots well

Hello Jeffeosso

Thanks for the reply.

Some replys to my posts irritate me, but not yours. I always appreciate your point of view, and humor.

It wasn't the 45 minute drive that mattered, it was the white-knuckle 2 plus hour drive in a raging snow storm that really made me unhappy.

I totally agree with you about A-Square Stocks, for the most part. In some way, their "crude utilitarian look" is attractive to me.

However, Art Alpin did make at least one "Deluxe" stock as seen here on my A-Square 416 Hoffman.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...141023532#6141023532

Very nice rifle and cartridge! I like it.

I’ve been watching a local A-square Hannibal in 416 rigby. Pretty hefty rifle with a 1-5 leupold on it. Still waiting on the gun dealer to come down on the price some so that I bite.

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:
Very nice rifle and cartridge! I like it.

I’ve been watching a local A-square Hannibal in 416 rigby. Pretty hefty rifle with a 1-5 leupold on it. Still waiting on the gun dealer to come down on the price some so that I bite.

Hello Buglemintoday

Thanks for the reply.

I also have an A-Square rifle in 416 Rigby with an upgrade to the "Appearance Package". The rifle came with QD bases and I've since addded a 3x9 scope.

What is your local gun dealer asking for the rifle?

cheers!

btw, on ugly rifles === i can't really say much, as i collect mossberg 14x series 22s ... even the hallowed 144LS is a form over function rifle

Iirc it was around $2400. When you google search the A Square Hannibal there is not that much information about them. But since I am a member of this forum the A-Square name and the big bore caliber was poking at me. It would be nice to have in the safe

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:
Iirc it was around $2400.

Hello Buglemintoday

Thanks for the reply.

$2400 including a 1-5 Leupold scope is actually a very good price. The scope and mounts are worth at least $500 so you'd be getting the rifle for less than $1900.

Any A-Square rifle generally sells for at least $2400. (without a scope) If I didn't already have a 416 Rigby I'd be asking for the name of the dealer so I could buy it if you were going to pass on it.

Nice rifle Buck.

The only thing wrong with it is the pistol grip.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Nice rifle Buck.

The only thing wrong with it is the pistol grip.

Hello ar corey

Thanks for the reply.

What's wrong with the pistol grip?

buckstix,

Congratulations on another great score.
Sorry I was late to this tale of daring do.

"Mox nix" is how I am going to spell it.

Illegitimi non carborundum.


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