A friend of mine called me today asking for a couple ideas or suggestions for rifle to take on a once-in-a-lifetime Canadian hunt for elk, possibly deer and bear. Figures on going with the best hunt he can afford and wants a good rifle to take with him in a more powerful caliber than his 30-06. Not too concerned with price, although I would guess he's thinking about good factory rifle for under $700-800 and a good scope for $400. He was thinking of a 325WSM due to a few articles he's been reading, but wanted my opinion about rifle brand, model, and caliber that he might want to look at.

So now I come to the board! Give me some suggestion for a rifle that's a good all-around hunting rifle, with function, accuracy, and quality. I started thinking of factory guns, and wasn't happy as I've rebarreled many of mine. I know I'd look at a solid rifle with the thought of bedding, trigger adjustment and possible re-barrel in the 338 Win Mag, or 300 maybe.


I already know CZ will be mentioned, but what would you buy with $1500 or a bit under for the complete rig?

Thanks!

Well if he wants more than the 06 I would say that a 300 Win/WBY would be good as well as a 338.

Myself - I would steer clear of the 325 just yet - I always like to wait a bit to buy something new - ever notice how the fit and finish on the 2nd year of a production run seems to be just a little better?

Unless I was really horned up on the 325,and I HAD to have more than the 30-06 - I would seriously just pick up a Ruger MKII in 300WM and be done. If he doesn't have a lot of expirence with more hp than a 06 then the 300 won't be too much of a jump. I would then top it off with a leupold VXIII 3.5 x 10 and be happy. Actually a nice Dakota in said configuration would be nice too or a single shot for a change.

338 win mag

I was a little hesitant on the 325 also, I figured there's better, more proven calibers out there and for some reason I doubt it's going to fly. I'm building a 300WSM on an MRC action with Lilja barrel right now, but I don't have any experience with it YET.

Funny though, I have had 3 different friends in the last month ask me about the 325wsm and expressed interest in getting one. These are guys that own a couple rifles, a shotgun or two and a couple rimfires and generally wouldn't be considered 'gun nuts'. It seems as though the firearms companies have figured out that releasing new calibers with lots of hype surrounding it sells a bunch more guns.


OK, I'd agree with the 338 Win mag, I love the caliber. Now lets get to the rifle, stock, etc... Need a setup that won't kick the snot out of him as he's about 5'4" and not the biggest guy around, and around mid 50's. Maybe the 325 would be in a package more suited to his size and recoil threshold???

Hi Matt,

We can help you.

First: What type of "bear" ? We have black bears (can hunt everywhere) and grizzlies (B.C. for non-residents).

Second: What type of "deer"?

Now, generally speaking, he can't go wrong with the 300WSM or 300 Win Mag. as a primary elk cartridge and if bears includes Black Bear only. If talking Grizzly, then the .338 Win mag and variants would be included.

While I like the .325 WSM, I feel it currently lacks better factory loadings- if you handload, choices open up. I feel many do not consider it because it is too new, but with proper, heavier bullet choices (Woodleighs etc.) it would certainly work within 250 yards for all game described.

As for a complete rifle rig under $1500, CZ or a new or used Model 70 with new scope would easily fit the criteria. While I don't like them personally, a Ruger would also be a good choice.

Have him pick up and handle a CZ, Winchester and Ruger at a local shop for starters, then go from there.

Wow - 5'4" - how does he handle recoil?

Maybe if you are to be building him a rifle - a MRC action in 35 Whelen all done up into an Accuracy Innovations stock. Bead blasted blue or matte blue/black. Topped with Leupold.

That would make a classy elk rifle - 35 whelen is a good thumper and is different than the 06. Myself I would have another 30-06 done up, I wouldn't feel undergunned at all.

Yes, the .300WSM or .325WSM will package up nicely for his size and they will have less recoil than any 300 win mag or 338 win mag.

Get him set up on a .325 WSM- get great handloads put together for his rifle and off to killing animals he goes!

Loonies suggestion is not loonie at all.

Throw in the .338-06 as well.

I do believe he's just thinking of black bear. Overall size of the rifle is a consideration and I've had a couple CZ's and they are definitely a full-size gun. I was thinking the Win 70 laminate sporter might be OK for him but I may have to shorten it up a bit.

Right now he wanted me to give him some suggestions and he did express interest in the 325...for some reason it doesn't trip my trigger, but for him, hell, it might be a decent choice. I can always load ammo for him so the factory offerings wouldn't be too much of a concern.

I do have a 376 Steyr which may be why the 325 doesn't excite me. My loads with a 230gr Speer at 2750fps does a hell of a job on our little whitetails.



He'll probably take my recommendation and follow it to a tee, so I'd really like him to get something he'll be happy with. Maybe the WSM's are something to consider, and for the increased power and manageable recoil that 325WSM shouldn't be ruled out.

It wouldn't be the worst choice, but to step up to a full size 300 Win Mag or 338, convince me on the rifle itself for a man of smaller statue.

I like the idea of the Whelen too, I'll have to mention it to him and see if he's interested. With all the WSM craze, it's garnered a lot of interest from guys that have 'just' an '06 or 270.

What would a barrelel MRC action run I wonder? Wouldn't be tough to bed it in a nice stock and he'd definitely be happy with that. Hmmm...

I guess if he is really set on the 325 - I would buy a cheap Win in 300 wsm (prob easier to find as the 325 is new and I haven't seen any on the shelf yet) and then re-barrel. Lilja is making good 8mm barrels IIRC.

Drop it in a McMillan G&H style stock or one from Accuracy International (if he prefers wood - I know I do) and that would be ok. I have nothing against the 325 WSM caliber - simply not too enthused with having to use a WIn off the shelf.

If you are gonna build one - then cool - have at it. Would be more than enuff for what he wants - I think. Different than an 06, short actioned so it may fit him better.


Ohhhh - here is an idear -- 300 wsm necked to 35 cal. Like a super whelen.

I see MRC barreled actions on their site for about 8-900. But that is with their barrels - I think if you wanted you may do better by barreling it yourself cost wise. I dunno. MRC is on the web MRC here

matt,
Have him take a look at the Remington 350 Mag in the Model 7. I had one several years ago and it shot very well. I have shot several Mod 7,s and all have given very good accuracy.
The Mod 7 is short and fairly light, making it easy to carry in rough country.
Scope it with a 1.5x5 or 1.75x6 Leupold. I like the heavy duplex.

If he is going on only one elk/bear/deer hunt, nothing wrong w/ the 06. I would choose a .338wm over the .325wsm. Nothing wrong w/ a .300mag, but if I'm going to take the extra recoil I want bigger bullets for bigger holes.
I like the M70 ft.wt. or Kimber for the wsm & a M70 or Ruger M77 for the .338wm (Ford vs.Chevy). Top it w/ a Leup. VXIII 2.5x8, why not, a B&C reticle. Shoot it a bunch form field positions & go hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
A friend of mine called me today asking for a couple ideas or suggestions for rifle to take on a once-in-a-lifetime Canadian hunt for elk, possibly deer and bear. Figures on going with the best hunt he can afford and wants a good rifle to take with him in a more powerful caliber than his 30-06. Not too concerned with price, although I would guess he's thinking about good factory rifle for under $700-800 and a good scope for $400. He was thinking of a 325WSM due to a few articles he's been reading, but wanted my opinion about rifle brand, model, and caliber that he might want to look at.

So now I come to the board! Give me some suggestion for a rifle that's a good all-around hunting rifle, with function, accuracy, and quality. I started thinking of factory guns, and wasn't happy as I've rebarreled many of mine. I know I'd look at a solid rifle with the thought of bedding, trigger adjustment and possible re-barrel in the 338 Win Mag, or 300 maybe.


I already know CZ will be mentioned, but what would you buy with $1500 or a bit under for the complete rig?

Thanks!

Matt, it sounds like your friend is going to northern Alberta so my suggestions will be applicable for Alberta or BC. Since you don't mention where or when I will make certain assumptions. For all terrain, all weather and all distances there is only one choice and that is the 338 Win Mag in stainless and synthetic. With the terrain and weather being what it is up here you want to be sure to cover all the bases. As far as calibre goes, the rule of thumb up here is go prepared for the largest game and use it for everything. That's why you'll see so many 338's up here. Ammunition is available just about anywhere which is another good reason for it's selection.

Rifles of course are a personal thing but I can give you a suggestion based on my own experiences. I own several 338's but if I have to pick one for all around accuracy, rough abuse, and reliability, I go for my Savage. Uglier than hell, but it's basically a tool so why worry about a pretty rifle when the idea is to get the job done. Good luck with your selection and have fun when you come up here.

Find one of the old stainless Ruger 77's in that butt ugly synthetic skeleton stock they used to make. Get it with sights just in case, in 338 Win Mag. Ugly as sin but a great rifle for weather.You can find them for $400 or so. Throw it in the truck and never worry about it.

quote:

Figures on going with the best hunt he can afford and wants a good rifle to take with him in a more powerful caliber than his 30-06.

And after the once-in-a-lifetime hunt, then what? Sell the custom rifle for 50 cents on the dollar? If it was me, I'd load up a 200 grain Barnes X in that '06 and find a better use for all that un-needed custom gun money. There's nothing wrong with using an '06 for black bear, elk and deer. Grizzly bears would warrant a more powerful cartridge, however.

Guys, guys, guys, do I hear this right? Some of you are advocating NOT buying a new gun!?!?!?

He would like to get a bigger caliber rifle. After using it for his 'one' hunt, he'll give the rifle to his son, who is a good friend of mine. His son will have many more years and hopefully hunts to put it to good use.

Thanks for all the ideas, the Rem Model 7 in 350 Mag wouldn't be a bad choice and they are smaller and lighter in weight. I'll be able to give him a lot to think about that's for sure, and I'll find out if he wants to spend some money on a 'really nice' rifle, or go with the butt ugly but accurate Savage.

I do think the Win 70 sporter laminate in 325 would be a decent rifle for what he wants. It really sounded like he had a hankerin' for one and I'm sure how all of you have known how that feels at one time or another.

There's certainly no ONE answer to this question but many suitable choices were covered. I'll also find out if he's open to the semi-custom route and would want to have a custom barrel installed on a suitable action.

Thanks guys,

Just a thought from a former guide and outfitter: If your friend has years of experience with his 06 and is confident and above all can shot it accurately that is the rifle he should take. A rifle you have shot for years and can shoot well will serve you better than one you've only shot a few hundred rounds through. As far as the "well I/He indends to practice lots before the trip so your reasons don't apply here", lets look at human nature. I've had clients show up with a rifle that they shot passabily but hated the recoil, muzzle blast, weight or how it handled, whatever. They stuck with that weapon instead of going back to the old 06 because they had sunk a bunch of money into the new super rifle or because they would be embarassed to admit they did like the new rifle. My suggestion for a one in a lifetime hunter is spend some of that money getting the 06 to a top of the line gunsmith for a complete tune-up and the rest on a top of the line scope. Then load up some 200 gr. Nosler Partitions and get in the best physical shape of your/ his life. Just a thought.

375 H&H.
Very pleasant recoil.
I have never liked the 338 WM because of the sharp crack it gives you.

Besides, the 375 can be handloaded light or heavy depending on the situation.

-Spencer

Hunter MT, I agree...

8mm (.323) is probably the most versitile medium bore.

The Europeans have known this for years.

Only the rabid "metric phobia" has kept the American shooter from realizing this.

Hell an 8X57 loaded to European standards would probably get the job done nicely with a 200gr bullet @ 2700fps.

Add another 250fps with the 325 WSM and you would really have something.

The 325 WSM should be able to propel a 250gr Woodliegh @ about 2600fps if you wanted more stopping power @ medium to short range.

The M70 magazine will allow an OAL of about 3.00" if the throat is done properly. (a piece of cake)

The Kimber 8400 would allow about 3.040" OAL.

No problem with heavier bullets @ those OALs.

And don't forget the 8mm 180gr BT @ 3150fps for medium game. I can speak from experience that the 8mm 180gr BT will literaly suck the lungs out of a deer when pushed to 3000fps (or more) Mv. And that was @ 60yds and 240yds. Neither animal left their tracks!

.338 Mag, you won't be sorry !! Kicks less than a .300 Win Mag, and way less than a .300 Ultra. Great medicine for elk and with IMR 4350 and a 210 Nosler Partition, recoil is just not an issue, gives more of a push than the sharp rap of some magnums.

Since I have spent more than four decades hunting, living and working in B.C. and Alberta and this includes spending many periods of three months, solo, in very remote Grizzly country, I would agree with HunterMt. and Brad. I own some 29 cf rifles and this is about 1/3 or the ones I used to own; this includes five .338 Win.s, a .375H&H, 9.3-74R and whatever, I only have three more to build and that is it. However, although my favourite is the .338 and I regard the .325WSM as a bad joke, I consider a good .'06-200 NP to be the best rig for the situation you describe. In fact, most of the time, I wonder why anyone bothers with anything else.

There are a lot of good ideas here.

Twice I set up hunting rigs with a used .338 Ruger 77 and a used 3 or 4 power leupold. Both were under 450 for the whole package.

Another was a new rem 700 375 ultra SS syn $550 new with a 3x9 leupold compact $269

another was a mod 70 classic synthetic 300 ultra $490 barely used with a new 3x9 leupold compact $226

I don't have these any more. But I am putting together another hunting rig that I think will be just ducky.

It is a model 70 classic LT 300 win mag $465 New and a new Zeiss conquest 3x9 $350 ,leupold rings and bases $30 pair. $845 for a complete package that I think will cover a lot of hunting situations. I did have to shop around to get those prices. I was trying to get the most for my money.

I think these or similar would all make good elk rigs too.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
I regard the .325WSM as a bad joke,

Yep, metric phobia.

quote:

Yep, metric phobia.

Nope, ignorance phobia...

I guess I would be a minimalist and take my 6.5X55 with two boxes of loads: one with 140 grain Barnes TSX @ about 2600 fps for big animals and one with Hornady 129s at 2800 for smaller stuff.

I also don't see a need for anything besides the '06 for elk.

However, if he just wants a bigger gun, it's hard to beat the 350 Rem or 35 Whelen. Buy the factory gun (rem CDL is out in Whelen, at least from Grices) and if it doens't shoot, spin on a new barrel. If it shoots, great.

No flies on the 338, except in a light rifle.... JMO, Dutch.

My favorite elk gun is a .338 Win, but I have shot their smaller cousins (red deer) with a .308 Win.

My opinion is not based on "phobia", it is simply a result of both considerable field experience and an appreciation of the physical realities of the situation. Very few middle-aged, small statured shooters who are confronted with the environmental demands of B.C.-Alberta hunting find it easy to carry a heavy rifle, on foot, in this country and a lighter rifle, in a magnum caliber, kicks too hard for most shooters.

The possibility of a Grizzly encounter here is real and these animals attack with a speed that you need to witness to believe. A rifle that one can "center-punch" such a bear with, is, IMO, a far better defense tool than one that you cannot shoot well, due to subliminal fear of recoil and most of us can shoot a light '.06 well, with a little practice.

I do not think much of the WSMs because I think that the .'06 will do as much or more than any of them under real hunting conditions and without the potential for feeding problems. A hunt, for a "non-resident alien", in B.C. costs BIG dollars and you are only allowed to shoot large, tough trophy animals, this in very rugged, thickly forested country. In this situation, success is most easily attained by those who practice frequently with a rifle/cartridge that they can both carry and shoot comfortably and this success is important to most people who lay out $15,000+ for the hunt of their lifetime.

I could give scores of examples, but, I will only say that my other favourite rounds are the 7x57, the 9.3x74R and it's rimless version, the 9.3x62 and the .45-70, with appropriate Grizzly defense loads. So, I am not a victim of "metric phobia", but, I recognize the superb, practical qualities of the .30-06 with appropriate loads.

If the state you are going to doesn't have a 30 cal. restriction. you may want to look into the 7MMRM. It is a necked down 338WM still plenty of gun and will give a flatter trajectory for long shots.

I think he should stick with his 30-06 and use the money for a pair of first-rate binoculars. He'll be able to use them all the time at sporting events and concerts, as well as on his big hunt.

If he just has to get a new rifle, anything that's been mentioned here is a good call, though I'd lean toward a CZ 550 FS in 9.3x62 or the S/S Ruger 338, either with a 4x Leupold.

Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Yep, metric phobia.

Nope, ignorance phobia...

Well you obviously do not suffer from the latter affliction.

Hmmm...the State of B.C. and Alberta...being Canadian, I don't really like the sound of that

BTW, welcome to AR and no, there are no .30 cal restrictions for big game in all of Canada that I am aware of.

I agree with the suggestions for sticking with the '06 if he already is comfortable shooting it. Pick up a box of something like Federal's High Energy 180gr TBBC's or Nosler Partitions and go hunting! All the other suggestions are quite valid too, but for a 5'4" guy, they may be a little over the top, and in IMHO with the new ammo that's out there, the 300WSM w/ 180gr bullets does not offer anything significant over a 30'06. If he wants to spend his money, tell him to get a 24 inch barrel for his 30'06, and a Leupold VXIII or Zeiss Conquest and total package should be around $800-$1000, all on the same platform that he has been comfortable shooting this whole time. If he REALLY REALLY needs something bigger, a 338 Win Mag would be one of my top choices. Just help him pick a scope with PLENTY of eye relief, since the first time the magnum taps him on the eyebrow, he will begin to develop a flinch. Hope this helps!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Loonie:
Wow - 5'4" - how does he handle recoil?

Maybe if you are to be building him a rifle - a MRC action in 35 Whelen all done up into an Accuracy Innovations stock. Bead blasted blue or matte blue/black. Topped with Leupold.

That would make a classy elk rifle - 35 whelen is a good thumper and is different than the 06. Myself I would have another 30-06 done up, I wouldn't feel undergunned at all.

WOW! Loonie, did you ever see a picture of Elmer Keith? The small guys can often handle recoil better than the big ones because they ride with it rather than being smashed by it!

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Just a thought from a former guide and outfitter: If your friend has years of experience with his 06 and is confident and above all can shot it accurately that is the rifle he should take. A rifle you have shot for years and can shoot well will serve you better than one you've only shot a few hundred rounds through. As far as the "well I/He indends to practice lots before the trip so your reasons don't apply here", lets look at human nature. I've had clients show up with a rifle that they shot passabily but hated the recoil, muzzle blast, weight or how it handled, whatever. They stuck with that weapon instead of going back to the old 06 because they had sunk a bunch of money into the new super rifle or because they would be embarassed to admit they did like the new rifle. My suggestion for a one in a lifetime hunter is spend some of that money getting the 06 to a top of the line gunsmith for a complete tune-up and the rest on a top of the line scope. Then load up some 200 gr. Nosler Partitions and get in the best physical shape of your/ his life. Just a thought.

But the best thought!

Matt:
Well, I can't resist sticking my 2 cents in on this. While I just love the .338 Mag., I really can't see why the guy should spend the time & hassle getting a new rifle for only one hunt. I suggest he keep and use his .30-06 but in this case, I'd suggest he go to a heavier 30 cal. Northfork bullet rather than a Partition. My experience has shown the Northfork to be more accurate than the Partitions however I'm not aware of the various offerings that Northfork has for .30 cal. rifles.
As has been posted above, the cost of the trip will be high and he's familiar with his current rifle and he's small in stature. I can't see the point of "changing horses in midstream" so to speak. If he expected to go on a number of similar hunts in the future, I'd be more inclined to agree on his getting a larger cal. rifle. I'd further suggest he use the money he'd spend on a new rifle to be sure he had a top of the line scope and a binoculars as well. For a scope, I think I'd opt for a Leupold 2-7x Vari-X-III. I can't see the need for anything more.
These are just my opinions however.
Bear in Fairbanks

My favorite elk rifle is a Husqvarna Mauser in 9.3 x 62. I have also shot quite a few elk with the 338 win. and the 375 HH, plus one with a 30-06, one with a 7mm STW, and one with a .358 win. just for comparison purposes.

Personally I refer the larger calibers because when I see an elk in thick timber and the only shot presented is right up the butt, I want to have confidence that my bullet will make it all the way to the lungs.

I would put a big 10-4 on 500 grain's post. I have taken Elk with .300 Win mag, .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, and .358 STA. I like big bullets going fast. I also hunt lessor animals with everything down to a .22, but for Elk size and larger give me more pizzazz. Good shooting.