The 30-06 loaded with Hornady Light-Magnum Ammo (165 SST or 180 SST) will do the job nicely; but, if he wants something significantly bigger, I'd go with the 338 Rem. Ultra Mag - 26" Senderro with a 3.5-10x Leupold with the B&C reticle. Now you've got two guns that would backup each other for any North American big game animal. Yet, I'd carry the 338 RUM when looking for grizzlies.

Can't beat a 338 Win-lots of good factory ammo.

AIU, I'm not sure the average hunter gains much more than recoil in going w/ a .33RUM vs. a .338wm. The RUM definetly has more whambam down range but the .338wm is more managable & is enough gun for anything that walks this conitinent. If I want more recoil, I want bigger bullets for bigger holes. Might as well go to a .375h&h if you're going to take the licks from a .338RUM.
Matt, if he is a handloader I would also throw in the .338-06 or .35Whelen. I just assumed he was a factory ammo guy. I still say .300wsm if he really wants a shortmag, but the .338wm is a logical step up from the 06.

If his present 30-06 has a 22" barrel have him get one with a 24" barrel. The elk, deer or bear will never know the difference. Have him put a low power varible scope on it, not some huge objective high varible scope on it and he should set. JMO

Matt, Could I suggest a Remington XCR in 300WSM loaded with 180 Hornady Interbonds? Just make sure the rifle he picks up is without the J-lock, since they(REM)are doing away with them sometime in the near future. Myself, I'd use a Rem. SPS stainless or XCR model in '06' and load it with 165 Interbonds and 57.5grs. H4350 and have total confidence in it, it'll take down anything he wants to shoot at in north america. I say this since I loaded for a co-worker using this load and he bagged 4 elk with 4 shots, albiet with a Rem. pump, but that's testimony enough for me for what the 06 can do. Scope would be a Burris 3-10 Euro Diamond w/Bal Plex, of course. Jay

This guy needs a 30-06.
The 338 Win Mag has about the same trajectory, so it is a definite winner for a second gun if he just has to have one. He can get it set up very similar to his '06, I'm sure. If this is about the hunt, tell him to spend his money on other things that will make the hunt go smoother, be more fun (a binocular, e.g.) and trust in the old centagenarian. Get a 180g load that shoots well and learn all about it.

Now, if on the other hand, he got some causal mention from his bud about maybe going up to Canada to shoot some stuff, and the reality is that he just wants a new rifle and a reason for it, then by all means get this guy a stainless m70 in 35 Whelen with 25" bbl and a well-fit laminate stock. A leupold VX-takeyourpick 3-9x with Qarne QD rings and git to the hills!
The "idea" of the whelen may not rock his boat, but let him light off a few 250g at some 2600-2650 fps and he'll likely decide it's plenty.
Plus, he's already got the brass and accessories for the '06 case....

When you consider this mans height you should rule out long barrel rifles as they don't handle well or carry well. My wife is about 5'1'' and she shoots a Ruger #1 with a 20'' barrel and custom stock with a total OAL of just under 34'' and she both shoot it well and hold it at her side without the barrel touching the ground. While I am taller than both of them and I am over 200 lbs I hate long barrel, heavy for caliber, thick in the pistol grip( ie Remington BDL) rifles and I would think that most people 5'4'' and less would feel the same. I think the members who suggested a Model 7 in 350 Rem might be on the right track. How about a Browning Micro A-Bolt in 325wsm. 22'' barrel, shorter LOP, thinner grip, light weight and with his buget you can buy the rifle, a quality scope and a pair of bino. army aviator

Tikka T3 Lite .338 WM

The Tikka T3 Lite has all black stock with blued cold-hammer forged free-floating barrel. The light but sturdy T3 TrueBody glass fiber reinforced polymer stock is pure Sako innovation. The straight stock combines high performance and light weight. Positive checkering for comfort and firm grip in all conditions. Improve your marksmanship with this stealthy T3 challenger.
T3 comes with spacers and scope rings.

Scope: Leupold VX 3 - 3-9x40 - If needed KDF and still money left for some boxes 225 Grain Federal Nosler Accubond - All set and ready to rock.

Roland

My vote goes for the 338 Win Mag. You can't go wrong with that one.
Lawdogso

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Loonie:
Wow - 5'4" - how does he handle recoil?

Maybe if you are to be building him a rifle - a MRC action in 35 Whelen all done up into an Accuracy Innovations stock. Bead blasted blue or matte blue/black. Topped with Leupold.

That would make a classy elk rifle - 35 whelen is a good thumper and is different than the 06. Myself I would have another 30-06 done up, I wouldn't feel undergunned at all.


WOW! Loonie, did you ever see a picture of Elmer Keith? The small guys can often handle recoil better than the big ones because they ride with it rather than being smashed by it!

I wasn't questioning his ability - I shoulda seperated those 2. I was just basicaly asking how he handled recoil not making a judgment on his size vs recoil management.

Being a smaller framed person does make a difference when it comes time to build a rifle. Myself being built like a pear - it makes a diference to me.

Ever hear the saying:

Beware the man with only one rifle, because he;s probably pretty good with it.

If all he has is the 30-06 and he IS "good" with the '06 then by all means USE the 30-06.

Don't go overboard wnad get into 200 or 220grain bullets, the 30-06 isn't a stellar performer at throwing them

Also 180's may be nice for some people's comfort but either
165Partitions or 165 Barnes TSX's won't penetrate noticably less, WILL shoot noticable flatter and will not beat up a small framed guy.

180's are better for Moose than 165's but moose need a lot of killing to make them stop moving.

If he does have a serious desire for something new get a newer 30-06, preferably something STAINLESS with a
man made stock (even good wood warps) and a better scope than he has now.

that way his brain which is used to calculating the trajectory of an '06 won't have to readjust to a new caliber etc...

Any ammo with a Nosler Partition, Barnes XLC or TSX
or even better Nosler/Winchester CT failsafe
(and though I'd prefer 165's, 180's would do.)
will do for any of the animals mentioned

And while load development is "Nice" within 300yards it doesn't really matter if a rifle shoots 3/4" or 1-3/4"
groups as far as the Elk/Deer//Bear are concerned.

If I got a phone call RIGHT NOW to race to the airport and go on a hunt (unfortunatly, not bloody likely) I wouldn't even need to pack, I'd just have whoever called get a Rem700LS (laminated stock) in 30-06 with a Leupold 3-9x40 Rifleman scope on from his local WalMart and have it waiting.

I consider a gun a Tool, and I personally prefer a tool I'm used to rather than "something new", my recommendations follow my preferences.
And other than the BIG bears (either brown or white)or a moose (I'd want it to drop where it's convienient to me and my guide rather than where it's convienient to the moose)
I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 30-06 hunting any game animal in north america.

If anyone needs the extra psychological boost of something bigger you need to introspect a bit more rather than SPEND a bit more.

Or simply PRACTICE more??

take a rifle you know, with ammunition you know, with bullets that will perform reliably and then things will probably go your way.


AllanD

I see nothing wrong with the 30-06 but if I were to suggest a larger bore then I would and have picked the .338 Win...I have use it extensively even shot a few Cape Buffalo with it and its always done the job with ease as long as I did my part...Its my favorite all around caliber...

The problem for most of us older guys is "how handy is the this thing I have to hike up that hill? Especially when the hill is 2000 feet of rise. I have to get it there for it to do its work, but it still has to get the job done when it gets there.

Over the years I've collected two rifles I like for that kind of use. The first and best for bad weather and tall hills is a .338 Win Mag pre-64 M70 built with a Kreiger ss bbl, NECG iron sights, McMillan stock, 2.5-8 or 3-9x42 scope on QR rings and mounts. Has been squared, smoothed and pillar bedded and finished in black teflon.

It is easy to carry, very accurate and absolutely does the job well beyond 300 yards. Last trip to Jackson Hole it took 3 rounds to check the impact point on the 300 yard gong ... 2" group properly placed.

For more temperate climes with heavier forest a pretty box stock CZ 550 American in 9.3x62 has become my favorite for anything save African dangerous game. It is fitted with either the 2.5x8 or the 3-9x42. It too is easy to carry and has proven it gets the job done with immediacy.

Bigger bullets allow better energy transfer to the target, better penetration, and less meat damage than small, hyper-velocity projectiles.

I have been known to carry larger caliber guns from time to time ... especially when bear in bad weather are involved, but none are quite so handy as this pair. Certainly bigger guns get carried for larger and nastier game. But these two are as handy as the 7mm Rem Mags and 300 Mags I have used ... and better than several 7mm Rem Mags fitted with scopes that are too big. And I believe they work better on the target end to boot.

Whatever you buy remember: 1) you have to get it there, 2) it has to work when you get it there, 3) weather is a factor, and 4) different conditions might suggest more than one rifle.

If you have a 30-06 you like and meets the requirements for this hunt but still want another rifle, look for a caliber whose low end performace overlaps with the high end use of your 30-06 without dinging the "you have to get it there" rule. I think a .338 Win Mag is the next logical step for that. The 9.3x62 is a good choice for less open areas and works great in Africa too. A well chosen .375 could also meet the bill and give you an excellent general purpose rifle for Africa but may be on the upper edge of the "you have to get it there" rule.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
8mm (.323) is probably the most versitile medium bore. The Europeans have known this for years.

I would consider 8X68S, 358 Norma, 9,3X62 or 9,3X64.

Once you have tried the 8mm your 30's will gather dust

Cheers
/ JOHAN

If this is really a once in a lifetime hunt, why would he risk making it all go sour when he has a rifle with which he is familiar and that will do the job right well on all of the game he's likely to see?

If he really wants to buy his son a rifle, then let him as his son what his son wants and then get him one, but don't let him screw up his hunt with an unfamiliar rifle.

The '06 is still about the most popular single caliber out there because it kills about everything right fine. Some of the thread regarding big bears and the inadequacy of the '06 only brings to mind a bear hunting judge from Juneau. He used the .35 Rem for a long time, but thought it was a might small. When he moved "up" to the '06, he never felt undergunned. After taking 30 or 40 coastal bronwies, I suspect he knew wherof he spoke.

Another vote for the 30-06. I have seen more of the animals mentioned dropped with the 30-06 and 180 grain bullets than any other combo by far. If this is a once in a lifetime trip I agree with several others to practice with his rifle more than he ever has before, get in the best physical condition he possibly can, and have a great time.

If I was going to buy something strictly for this trip it would be a camera or cameras to preserve it for others and myself to enjoy for the rest of my life. I might add if I was his son I would be very happy to wait for the rifle my Dad used on his "Hunt of a lifetime" when he was through using it forever and would cherish it the rest of my life no matter what it was. I have my Dad's old 30-06 and although it is nothing special at all it is to me the most valuable rifle I own.

Elk are tough, but they are hardly bullet-proof, and no, they aren't the hardest critter on the planet to put down, as they are commonly portrayed to be.

I'm not someone who thinks that the cartridge world begins and ends with the .30-06, even though I started hunting with that cartridge over thirty years ago. I've carried the .270 Win., .30-06, 7mm Rem. Mag. , .300 Win. Mag., .338 Win. Mag., .300 Wby. Mag., and .375 H&H on elk hunts over the years, and no other cartridges.

Fundamentally, I think the .270 Win. isn't enough gun for my taste, and I think that the .375 H&H is too heavy to carry up the mountain. The 7mm Rem. Mag. is good, but no better than the .30-06 in terms of putting elk down, but it does shoot a bit flatter. The .300 Wby. needs a 26" bbl, which I loath, and it makes too much noise. It kills very well though!

My ideal elk cartridges, and the only ones I use anymore, are the .300 Win. Mag. and the .338 Win. Mag. I'm not interested in any more experimentation, and I'm not going to hunt elk with any other catridges in the future. Both of these hammer elk harder -- and demonstrably so -- than the .270 Win., .30-06, and 7mm Rem., and they drop elk just as well as the .300 Wby. or .375 H&H.

I like the .300 Win. and .338 Win. because you can get by with a handy 24" barrel, the recoil isn't all that bad with either one of them, and there is ample killing power at your disposal for any elk that walks. If you can't kill any bull anywhere under any conditions with either one of these cartridges, you won't kill him with anything else. The bullets won't bounce off.

I've found that the .300 Win. with premium 180 gr. bullets and the .338 Win. with 210, 225 or 250 gr. bullets work on elk equally well. Take your pick! Currently, I'm shooting 210 gr. Noslers out of my .338 Win. Mag. for elk, and I took my last one last season with this projectile. The 210 Nosler Partion is just one heck of a fine elk bullet. Load it to 2900 fps. or better, zero for 200 yds., and go hunting -- pure and simple. I'm taking the same rifle and load to Tanzania this year for plainsgame, and I'll use the same rig for Texas deer and hogs and Oregon elk when I get home. If, in my experience, it didn't work, and better than 'well', I wouldn't use it or recommend it.........

AD

300 win mag

HunterMontana has it right... Stick with the grand old '06 and pick a premium bullet.

I'd choose either the 200gr Barnes Triple-Shock or the 220gr Woodleigh Weldcore RN (if the "bear" mentioned is griz). If it's black bear and deer/elk, then a good 180gr like the Triple-Shock will do it all.

Hears a great choice for that elk rifle. A ruger 77 MKII sporter in .338 winchester magnun it sports a 24" barrel is a stainless steel model with a laminated stock new $490.00 top this with a Zeiss conquest 3x9 40mm scope $360.00 Total $850.00 plus tax with alot left over for ammo and case.

If you are looking for light and easy to carry go get a Kimber 84M stainless Montana in .308. Shoot 168 or 180 gr Barnes TSX at 2850 and 2700 respectivley. And if you wish you can get the same rifle in a .300WSM.

I don't like any of the WSMs because of the feeding problems involved. That rig in a .308 weighs 5Lb 10oz. And mine is a fricking tack driver. Shot my bull with it last year with a 168gr TSX. thumped him hard.

If you want more pop go get a .338 or a .375. And there ain't nothing wrong with a .30-06 it all just boils down to personal preferance.

Good luck

Allen is right on the mark with 30 Mags for elk, this is an excellent combination.

I haven't had his sucess with the Win mag version though and I am pretty much of the same opinion about experimenting, I have better things to do with my time and dollars when what I have works. My pet pig in the race would be a 30-338, but in hind sight it's still a wildcat and if I was traveling and spending big dollars on a hunt a back up caliber in a standard chambering would be in the equation just in case Murphy's law or local ammo requlations and restrictions came into play.

I did review the thread and I didn't see the 300 H&H mentioned, although I do not personally own one I would consider this a excellent candidate to fit this bill, but unless your looking at a Remington these tend to be collectable and out of the dollar range.

All of the above considered I know where a 308 Norma mag is right now in a FN action which would fit well under the dollar amount mentioned and would be my choice in the above senario. If restricted to new rifles a Model 70 Classic, Super Grade in a 30-06, 300 Win Mag or 338 Win Mag all fit the bill well.

My standard predjudices would probably come into play before dollars hit the table though and either a Pre 64 model 70 Winchester or a Mauser 98 ( several options ) in a 7mm or 30 mag would end up being what I settled on. I find it easier to work with a caliber, even if its not my first choice, than I rifle I don't like.

Myself I would go with the 338 win mag. Tell him good luck and good hunting with what ever he chooses.

338 Winchester Magnum.
Doug

Maybe someone has already posted it, but if the fellow wants a short-barrel rifle in an elk-thumping caliber, why not look into the CZ 550 Full Stock in 9.3x62. If the fellow has a boatload of extra cash laying around and just has to have another rifle in .325 or .338, then have him get a custom job with a $2,000 piece of walnut for a stock, and all the bells and whistles, then leave that rifle at home and take the .30/06 that he is already used to shooting in the first place. Heck, I use a CZ 550 American in 7x57mm and with my 160 grain handloads I do not feel underguned when I am puttering around after elk. Anyways, that is my 2.5 cents worth ... Tom Purdom

Surestrike I think you would be hard pressed to get a 180gr anything out of a .308 @ 2700fps, 2600fps maybe, unless it's sporting a 26"+ tube. What are you feeding that thing?

One thing I haven't heard mentioned is the Kimber 8400 in .325 WSM; they are suposed to be starting delivery in late spring. You should be able to get even a Montana model and a VX-III 2.5x8 Leupold for around the $1500. One thing I've learned is to get what you want. If you friend wants a .325 WSM and someone talks him into something else, he'll always have a little lingering doubt in his mind over his choice. As far as recoil goes, I'm 5'6", 175#, and I own both a .338 Win Mag and a .375 H&H. Recoil can be managed by good stock design, long eye-relief scope, tweeked trigger, premium recoil pad, and mental focus - leave the muzzle brake off. I use a big foam pad for sighting in (one used to cover water faucets in winter), but all practice shooting is off hand and/or field positions.

I am going on my elk hunt this fall. I am taking a Rem 700 with an Obermeyer barrel in .338 WM and a Rem 700 BDLSS off the rack .300 WM except that both will have McMillan stocks on them as soon as the stocks get here. The .300 has a 3x-9x and the .338 has a 2.5x-8x. It looks like the .300 will be shooting the 165 TSX unless the new stock makes a big difference in the way it shoots. I am going to try the 225 TSX, 210 NP, and 210 Scirocco in the .338 to see which shoots the best.

My brother, who I am hunting with, is taking a .300 WM shooting 180 NP.

Fast Ed

Fredj338, i myself have gotten 2400-2600 from a .308 winchester using 180 SP hornady bullets out of a rem. 700 with a 22". I no longer have that rifle and i do see that federal has high energy ammo that they say gets over 2700 out of a 24" with nosler 180 partition. I never tried to push it but with the right powder i dont see why you couldn't get 2700 out of a 22" staying within saami specs, but a 26" would get you there for sure.

.50 BMG, It's the only way to be sure!

For my elk hunting, I grab either a .300 Win. or a .338 Win. Those are the only two cartridges I use anymore, and I pick one over the other mostly on a whim.

But I started out hunting elk with a .30-06, and have had nothing but good results with that cartridge. It would be my suggestion that your friend stick with his .30-06, especially for his age and size. I would NOT pick something bigger for one elk hunt. All he needs to do is select good ammunition that features a premium (i.e. Nosler Partition) bullet at 2700 fps. or better, and he needs to zero his rifle for 200 yds. If he shoots well and places his bullet well, preferrably through the lungs, he'll have himself a bull in short order.

AD

358 Norma Mag- The power of a 375 with better ranging. It will handle anything you'll ever need on this continent.

If starting from scratch today for an elk/bear rifle I might just try a BAR lightweight Stalker in .338 with a 1x4 or 2x7.

It's truly sporterweight and the gas action would smooth the recoil. I understand they are plenty accurate for game that size.

Reliability? You get one shot regardless, and with factory ammo or full-length sized reloads they should be plenty reliable.

Shot my last elk with a relatively soft 150 grain bullet out of my 270 at 350 yards with no problem other than getting it to the road. No matter what rifle you get shoot well and consider how close you can get a truck to it.

Add another vote for the 9.3X62. Powerful enough to handle anything that may be encountered. And my CZ550 in 9.3X62 is definitely easier on my shoulder than my Model 70 in .338 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Surestrike I think you would be hard pressed to get a 180gr anything out of a .308 @ 2700fps, 2600fps maybe, unless it's sporting a 26"+ tube. What are you feeding that thing?

Fred,

Well in the .308, I use one of three rounds Federal HE 180gr NPT's they just tickle 2700fps chronoed out of my gun.

Barnes 180gr XLC they'll just make 2700 as well.
Those loads are posted in the Barnes manual.

And I haven't chronoed them yet but suspect the 180Gr TSX should be real close as well juding from what I'm getting out of the 168gr TSX loads.

Greg.

For $1,500 I'd get a Schmidt & Bender scope and some Talley rings and mount them on the 30-06, then get a trigger job if needed.

On the other hand if you buddy has the "I want a new rifle" disease than his only hope for a cure is to get a new rifle. For someone who is vertically challenged a model 7 is hard to beat. Count me in with the Model 7 in 350 crew.

If he has the dreaded " I want a new rifle in 325 WSM" disease; than tell him to enjoy shooting the 325WSM.

Of course he could get a 375 H&H and be set for that once in a lifetime trip to Africa.

Ask the outfitter...he will know the conditions and what works in his area, but in this case your friend's .30-06 with 180 gr Nos Part applied in the right place will work just fine. Shot placement over power.....

My Dad was only an 2" taller than your friend and he used a 7x57 for most things, but did have an old Rem 722 in .30-06 for his "heavy gun". Add in his 22 Hornet and he thought he had it ALL covered in the US....I don't think he was too far wrong!!

Gotta go with AD this time. The 300 Win Mag (or 308 Norma/30/338 or 300 H&H) or the 338 WM will punch tickets as well as anything else mentioned and with the surge of new case designs, a lot of really good used guns are on the market. Since this guy's son is getting a used gun regardless, what's the point of buying a new one? The scope is a different matter for me, though. Unless I know the previous owner I really dislike buying used scopes. Almost as much as a used outboard.

I don't think a .325 would be bad but I would stick with a cartridge that is popular in case you loose your ammo up north. (which happens more than you might think).

You won't find any .325 ammo in the stores up there.

Keep the '06 and spend more time practicing shooting. Jog 100 yards and then shoot from different posistions. Get in shape. This will pay off more than anything money can buy.