Pinotguy, I'm with you!

"And here I had my fingers crossed that the 318 W-R might have come out on top. lol"

Actually, no one has yet brought up the .333 Jeffery yet either.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug.
Oh. Then I still proclaim the .35 Whelen winner

X2

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
... From the astounding lack of sales of em I am not alone in my assessment.

Does anyone have any real data on this? What I have seen, based on talking to local gun dealers, is its just the opposite. The WSM's have done quite well (270's and 300's).

I normally like what Chuck Hawks writes....but I have to disagree with him on the "effiecieny stops at .308" for the WSM's, thats just BS. Even the 325 is probably just a hair over bore, and it has been proven time, and time, and time again that the wildcat WSM's in the 35 and up calibers does amazing things. And its doing so with a bit less powder and still nipping on the heels of the belted longer carts. Hand loaded aside, look at 325 wsm factory numbers, and 8mm Rem Mag factory numbers....and thats in a case nearly an entire inch shorter.

Pity the big bore market in America IS limited and sparse, Winchester could have really made some great stuff on the WSM case. If we had seen a 375/416/458 WSM....I wonder if the Ruger's would have ever been invented?

Personally i dont see how the 338win mag(no i dont have one) can be too much for deer. Dead is dead, and in the field most people never feel recoil. Whats perfect for me may not be for you so IMO there is no such thing as a perfect cartridge. Getting hung up on numbers from a loading manual is just ballistic masturbation.Not to mention that most information is not realistic, especially when a company wants to sell the new cartridge and rifles. Dont mean to sound negative its just that this is just splitting hairs to the extreme. In reality cartridges really overlap one another so pick a good rifle that fits you and your hunting conditions and have at it...

Yep, no doubt the 325 wsm

Good Pot Stirring Thread :-).

A few observations about the 325 etc.:

The OP is selling the 325 a little short. My Montana shoots factory 200gr AB's at close to 2900fps not 2800. A couple different reloads shoot 200gr TSX's in to better than 3/4 MOA 3 shot groups at just over 2900fps.

I can't think of any game in NA that a 200gr Accubond or TSX wouldn't be good for. I made my longest whitetail shot ever (just 347yds) with the 200gr TSX at 2925fps. I think it would be just as good for Elk or Bear at 50yds. (Though for Big Browns you'd be thinking of something starting with 45 .

There's a better selection of bullets out for the 325 that a lot of people realize but then again how many do you need? I plan on using the 200gr load for everything, I've talked to others that use the 180gr with equal success.

The 325 is a good bit more gun than a 338-06. My 338-06 shot factory 210 NP's at 2725 but they were so HOT that the primers were falling out of Factory rounds! Reasonable handloads were slower.

I for one CAN feel the difference between the handling of a short action and a magnum length one. I prefer the short.

I have a couple nice 338 Win Mags, both are MUCH heavier than my 325 Montana. Pick up any of the three and there's no doubt which you'd want to carry up a hill. Also I've seen several lots of 338 Brass that had poor quality control. Either the belts or the shoulders were way off. All of the 325 brass I've used was of much better quality. It could just due to newer tooling on the 325 production line but 325 brass is definately better than the 338 brass I've used lately.

Maybe someone could find sales figues on the 325 but I had read somewhere that it actually exceeded sales predictions. Nobody thought it would be the top seller but it's done better than they originally thought. The 270 and 300WSM's FAR exceeded original sales expectations and were an IMMENSE success, it's incredible that some people still don't beleive this.

So although I can't call the 325 the best overall medium bore (the 30-06 has this down in stone) it is an excellent round.
Hunters could restrict themselves to rounds more than a 100yrs old and not be handicapped - but what would the fun of that be?...................DJ

Just my $.02
Being a rifle looney, its hard to say which is the best.
I find the 325 to be a fine choice in a light rifle such as a Kimber Montana
Easy to load for, accurate and kills stuff DRT.
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beutler:

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
... From the astounding lack of sales of em I am not alone in my assessment.

Does anyone have any real data on this? What I have seen, based on talking to local gun dealers, is its just the opposite. The WSM's have done quite well (270's and 300's).

That's where I've gotten my data as well Jon so it might just be a local thing and I could sure be mistaken. What I was actually told after hunting season was over by a couple friends that own Sporting Goods stores were that the old standards were the big sellers under the current conditions, .06's .270's 7MM and .300Win Mags. I think the take was the ammo cost more and components were more difficult to get hold of so folks were taking the known path as that of the least resistance. I'll cede that's not based on very scientific or even sound economic thinking, just personal observation. I will say that one of the guy's do sell beau-coups firearms around here and this is an area that moves a lot of guns in the fall.

P.S.
Don't get my posts confused with someone that has a dog in this fight. While I don't prefer short magazines in hunting rifles for myself I sure ain't gonna say my stuff is better cause I like it more (rather childish). Like I said, everyone get's to pick their own winner in my opinion .

Think it was said that what we are really looking for is a rifle that will do what an 06 and a 338WM will do.....and the truth to be known is no rifle does it all....06 is considered too small for large bear....aha...35 Whelen steps up.....338WM is considered too large for deer....the 35 Whelen steps up...just down load a little. Now, buying factory ammo when in that small country store out in the middle of nowhere....06. Have a 6.5x55, a 270, an 06 and a 35 Whelen....I hunt more with the Whelen....

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Oki:
Think it was said that what we are really looking for is a rifle that will do what an 06 and a 338WM will do.....and the truth to be known is no rifle does it all....06 is considered too small for large bear....aha...35 Whelen steps up.....338WM is considered too large for deer....the 35 Whelen steps up...just down load a little. Now, buying factory ammo when in that small country store out in the middle of nowhere....06. Have a 6.5x55, a 270, an 06 and a 35 Whelen....I hunt more with the Whelen....

But you probably aren't going to make many 300-400 yard shots with a 35 Whelen which the 325 is perfectly adequate for...............DJ

But you probably aren't going to make many 300-400 yard shots with a 35 Whelen which the 325 is perfectly adequate for...............DJ[/QUOTE]

If you can't get within 300 yards of your game your not much of a hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
If you can't get within 300 yards of your game your not much of a hunter.

Bull$hit. In open country there are times when even the most experienced of hunters will have an opportunity at 300+ yards that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Closer is certainly better but it isn't always possible in every situation.....................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
But you probably aren't going to make many 300-400 yard shots with a 35 Whelen which the 325 is perfectly adequate for...............DJ

quote:

If you can't get within 300 yards of your game your not much of a hunter.

If you can't make the 300, 400 yard shot then you're not much of a shot...

Don't get your panties in a knot. there is a difference between hunting and shooting. I doubt that anyone would consider a 35w, 338-06, or the 325 wsm long range tools. The 325 can defiantly do it but do you really need to? Most game is taken at well under 300 yards

Are you really going to try to define hunting by distance? Do you want to walk that slippery slope?

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
Don't get your panties in a knot. there is a difference between hunting and shooting. I doubt that anyone would consider a 35w, 338-06, or the 325 wsm long range tools. The 325 can defiantly do it but do you really need to? Most game is taken at well under 300 yards

Most but not all. The point is a 325 WSM with an Aerodynamic 180 or 200gr bullet at 2900-3100fps is far better suited for longer shots than is a 338-06 or a 35 Whelen at their much slower velocities....................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Are you really going to try to define hunting by distance? Do you want to walk that slippery slope?

No that can of worms has already been opened. I was just feeling ornery and new that I could get a rise out of someone. The cartridge's that are being discussed are not what I consider long range rounds but are quite capable at the range that most game are taken 0-300 yards + or -. The 325 is more than enough to take any game at any realistic range.
If bullet seating depth is an issue for getting the most out of the 325 why not just build it on a standard length action? that would give plenty of room to set the bullet out as far as you want. ( that's a whole other can of worms)

I think the 325 can be considered a long range big game rifle. The 8mm Rem Mag is considered one, and factory for factory they're within a very small difference in FPS. Inside 300 yards, yes there is no difference. Same can be said about any other standard or short magnum vs a 30-06 based cartridge. 300 win vs 30-06, 280 rem vs 7mm RM, 338-06 vs 338 Win.....

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
John,

I like to think of it as cup sizes.

the 30-06 is like 34Cs perfectly adequate and stay perky longe, the 338 win mag are 36Ds lots of fun but they can get in the way sometimes.

The 325 WSM is like a 35 C/D. Perfect but it so hard to buy the Mrs or GF sexy matching bras and panties cause they are kinda an oddball.

This may very well be one of the best things I have ever seen on a message board. It would fit very well in a topic entitled "If you had to choose just one woman". Well, let's hope it never comes to that!

Well, I think the arguements in support of the 325 position it as the best medium bore KILLING round. But, we're not just killing we are hutning so if you are going to lay the claim of 'best' on something that meets those criteria. Yes, a best hunting round must be able to kill the game you intend to pursue. It must also be readily and easily available. Both the ammo and the rifle itself. Also, while it was not stated, if a guy is trying to meet all his needs with a single rifle I think it is a safe bet that cost is going to be a consideration. If cost is not really a factor then you just go buy another gun!

So, it will be of no surprise that I think the 30-06 is the best medium bore for NA. Not the .270 I shoot. It it everywhere. Every Wal-Mart has ammo and I doubt you can find many shops that sell hunting rifles that does not have at least one right now. It is affordable, both guns and ammo. And within proper limits can kill anything that walks in NA. Not at 400 yards perhaps but anytime you aim for "one size fits all" you will have to make exceptions. And the hunter that is force into using only one rifle will have to accept that.

The post title said "New best all around medium bore" not "Best new all around medium bore" which implies that this new caliber is better than all the previous ones. Some are arguing that the 338 win mag is too much for deer and not a long range and the 30-06 is good for deer but not a long range, so in between the 325 WSM must be the best!





then you worry about ammo availability!

What's the matter with you guys, the 300 win mag does it all and no one is talking about it.

• Universal ammo and rifle availability comparable to 30-06
• 200 gr bullets at 2900 fps + and 180 gr at 3100 fps +
• A plethora of bullets, cases and dies
• Recoil manageable in a rifle lightweight enough for a carry gun
• 300 to 400 yd shots, are you kidding, the 300 win mag can double that

For performance the perfect calibers are 223, 257 Bob, 270, 300 win mag and 375 Ruger. Each will drive a decent SD bullet around 3000 fps.

If you don't agree you are just wrong!

Ok Ok I refused eirlier to partake but I can no longer sit on my hands.

Woods, I to will speak up and say .300 Win Mag is the most versatile, And damn well meam it.

.308 dia. HUGE and I MEAN HUGE!!!! Bullet selection for us handloaders, and ammo just about anywhere for the rest.

And this guy has an entirely different opinon: http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows/TrophyQuest.aspx

My favorite medium bore is the venerable .375 H&H, either the belted rimless or flanged versions. Of course, everyone is free to disagree, but I like it.

Mike, and all the other contributors, a very good thread. I compliment you all on a lively, civilized discussion.

How many of you have heard of Francis E. Sell?

He wrote a book in 1955 titled "Small Game Hunting" which was published by the Stackpole Company.

Though the title suggests it is mainly about shooting small animals, it really isn't. What it is mainly about is how to use small game hunting as a way to build your skills and effectiveness as a big game hunter.

Sell wasn't a theorist. He and his wife lived in a very small cabin on a small mountain of the Oregon Coast Range just a couple of hundred yards from Riverton, Oregon.

Riverton was a community, not big enough to even be a village. His house was made mostly of hand-hewn timber, and would be recognized anywhere in West Virginia, Tennessee, or Arkansas as the home of a man who lived by the sweat of his own hands. He hunted for most of the meat they ate, but he also hunted for the love of it....from Kodiak bear on down to squirrels. Needless to say, his typewriter was an ancient manual one. His money was spent on guns and shooting.

He burned wood for heat, grew and canned his own fruit and veggies, and shot bear out of the massive blackberry thicket which began 1/8th mile below his house and grew up the hill right past his house. His running water (like mine) was from a "boxed" spring and was pressurized by gravity.

I visited him fairly often, and we would shoot trap off of his front porch (his front yard was his trap range), with his wife operating the thrower! To go hunting for meat or just to relax, he would go in the house, pick up a rifle or shotgun, and start walking on up the hill he lived on. He could walk from there to California without crossing a paved road (but he'd have had to cross some rivers, the Pistol, the Sixes, and even the Rogue.)

We discused the all around rifle concept several times.

When you boiled it all down, he didn't feel there was any all around big-game rifle for North America. But he did feel there were many rifle cartridges which would be very satisfactory for all NA game, large or small, in the hands of a competent all-around hunter.

Maybe he had a point which might still be worth considering once in a while 54 years later?

I don't know one way or the other, but I do understand what he meant.

BTW for one of the better books you can ever read on practical rifles, sights, cartridges, hunting, field ethics, proper game-shooting ranges, etc., his is hard to beat. It's very inexpensive on used book sellers' shelves.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:
But you probably aren't going to make many 300-400 yard shots with a 35 Whelen which the 325 is perfectly adequate for...............DJ

quote:

If you can't get within 300 yards of your game your not much of a hunter.

If you can't make the 300, 400 yard shot then you're not much of a shot...

And if you not much of a shot, you must not be much of a hunter. This is deep! I may not be smart enough to be a good hunter

quote:

New best all around medium bore for NA....the winner is...

I once asked a dead elk how much difference there was between a .325 WSM and a .30-06 Springfield.

The elk said, as you might expect, "nothing"

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
The post title said "New best ..." not "Best new..."

Either way it sounds like the topic is about a new cartridge. You can't have a "New best" cartridge if you didn't already have an old best cartridge that is displaced.

True, and that is what I am disagreeing with (now that sounds strange without context ). I am saying that the "old best" is "still best"!

Boy, you sure can tell it is the middle of winter around here!

Hey Guys

I don't post much down here in mediums, but have a passion for a few mediums, 338-358- and really liking some of my 9.3s even though they have not been to the field with me yet!

Everyone has opinions, I am no different, right or wrong! I happen to think that Mike and his 325 WSM is both WRONG--AND RIGHT! What you say? The only thing he is wrong about is the title of the thread itself, and only 1 word of that, "BEST". Hell, there is no, "BEST" all around anything! How about this, "An Excellent Medium Bore for NA"


Next, I classify things a bit different and think a bit different from most. I classify .400 and up big bore, .300-.399 medium, anything under .300 small bore. Don't all you 30 boys get upset, but I wouldn't give you two cents for every 30 caliber ever made! Rather boring I think, and I don't have much use for them. I figure anything a 30 can do, a 338 of some sort will always be better regardless. Oh I have plenty of 30s, but they don't see any use for anything, don't even know why I keep them around, reckon for kids to shoot and such! Now I don't even own a 323 anything, and Winchester surprised the hell out of most of us with that entry! I think we all thought the next step up in the WSM line would be 338! When the 325 was announced I thought Winchester had lost their minds! But after a bit of thought on the subject I came to realize it was in fact a stroke of genius on their part.

When the first WSM hit the market I made it into 338 caliber. No use whatsoever for anything 308. So I played with that a long time, still have two damn good rifles. But playing around with that it didn't take long to realize that a 338 WSM was at it's best with 225 gr bullets! Length in magazine, velocity, nearly all factors favored 225s. My rifles sport 22 inch barrels too so that is also a factor. When you start to go to 250 gr bullets, length for magazine starts to be a factor, velocity drops a bit, but still close, 2500 and approaching 2600. But just not exactly optimum for the 250s. Well, above 250 is completely out of the question, I had always favored the Swift 275 and it has done well for me in 338 caliber on many things in the past, but it was far too long for the WSM case and action. So Winchester choosing the .323 caliber was truly a stroke of genius, very few limitations with bullet choice, none really that I know of, as stated I don't own one. I don't care what you say about any .308 caliber, larger is better when it comes to moose, bears and such! Take that high velocity crap some of the hot 30s can do and use it for rats and such. So .323 is beginning to approach a decent medium. So I would say it's an Excellent Choice for a good MEDIUM in NA.

Now I didn't, and would not chose it, but that does not detract from it at all. There are many many excellent choices for this sort of job. I can think of many such, all started with 338 caliber and running up to 9.3 caliber. I have used mostly for this 338 and 358, with various 358s taking the lead. One of my favorites has been the 358 STA. But I have also done a bit with 35 Whelen and 338 Winchester, all successful. Those of you who would bring up nearly anything from .323 to 9.3 would all be correct in saying, and Excellent Medium! I can't think of any bad ones? But we all have our pet cartridges for sure, I do! Best all around? I'd rather see Excellent Cartridge!

As for availability the rifles are on gunbroker all the time. I have not kept up with exactly what Winchester is chambering for the new M70s in Columbia SC, but they are not going to let the 325 WSM go to the wayside. If they are not right now, they will be! Brass is and has been available in any lot size you want from Midway! I bought several hundred of them some time ago to use for my 338 WSMs. So it will be around. And if I happen to be wrong about that, so what, it would be easy to make brass from any available WSM case, just run thru the expanding ball and it's done. Bullets will always be available. No downside at all if Winchester quit tomorrow with 325 WSM. Who shoots factory ammo anyway?

Good Choice Mike! Enjoy! No need to have to work so hard to justify it! I bet now it will serve you well!

My next favorite medium is my very own 9.3 B&M, but I am still a ways out before getting it to the field to play with! Too many bigger bore projects ahead of it right now for field work!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I once asked a dead elk how much difference there was between a .325 WSM and a .30-06 Springfield.

The elk said, as you might expect, "nothing"

Yea - but had he been shot with both so that he really knew what he was talking about?

- Lars/Finland

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

New best all around medium bore for NA....the winner is...

I once asked a dead elk how much difference there was between a .325 WSM and a .30-06 Springfield.

The elk said, as you might expect, "nothing"

I never could understand what live elk where trying to say.

All my bolt actions are Browning A-Bolts, because I shoot left handed and know the rifle. I think they are accurate and not too expensive . . . that said I have:

375 H&H
270 Win
300 Win Mag
325 WSM

I've hunted with all excecpt the 375, and really the 325 wsm purchase was just an impulse - finally talked my dad into selling a bunch of Winchester commeratives and he said to get at least one rifle with wood and blued steel (I like stainless/composite) so WTF, I bought a Browning Medallion in 325 WSM and put a 4.5 x 14 B&C Leupold VXL on it.

Of all those rifles, the 325 is just more fun to carry - it carries like the 270 with a shorter action and is just one wicked load - the recoil is rough, so I put a larger, wide break on it. Of the four A-bolts I think the 325 WSM is going to get the NP3 treatment and a strong aftermarket stock in case I ever get to go to Alaska or Africa. The 325 is very accurate and is tough on large deer - I planted a rabid skunk into the side of a creekbed at 120 yards off hand.

I think the above four calibers are all I'll ever get for a medium bore bolt action - so far as a want versus need discussion, you can't have one without the other!

"where do you draw the line."

You don't. If you did all of this wouldn't be as much fun!!!

(I like the fact that the .325 WSM is generally not favored. The reason being that they are starting to appear more and more as used guns in gun stores, and at real good prices to boot.
As an example, I picked up a Kimber Montana in .325 WSM in pristine condition for $725.00. I think the new price on that rifle is about a $1050. That is the beauty of all of these "experiments". Folks try them, don't like them, and some of us get great deals on the discards.)

Question for those that shoot both the .325 WSM and the 9.3 x 62. Is the recoil that much different between the two?

Hey Medium guys, I went over to Winchester just a bit ago to check something else out, and behold Ultimates, Sporters, and Stainless whatever they call them, and featherweights are all offered in the New Winchester M70s, all control feed in "325 WSM"! So this cartridge combo will be around a long long time! Others I don't know about, browning, kimber and so forth! But in a M70 well it would seem in fact an Excellent NA Cartridge to me!

Michael

22WRF

Recoil? These don't have any recoil! These are mediums. Maybe more recoil than a 22 yes, but nothing substantial for sure!

Michael

quote:

I agree the 338-06 is great and that is what is my current custom rifle is being built in.

My feelings exactly, the 325 WSm is a good "new" cartridge. But I am not about to get rid of my 338-06's for one.

I have stated numerous times that I wish Remington would have introduced the 338-06, and chambered the cartridge instead of A-Square and Weatherby, can you say doomed from the start?

It would have given Remington an instant answer to the 338WM, without the magnum hype and egomania that goes with it.

I would comfortably use my 338-06 on anything in North America and the world for that matter. With the exception of a few animals.

But the same can said of many cartridges, 325 WSM included.

The 8mm's are niether fish nor fowl, give me a 338 any day

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
"where do you draw the line."

You don't. If you did all of this wouldn't be as much fun!!!

(I like the fact that the .325 WSM is generally not favored. The reason being that they are starting to appear more and more as used guns in gun stores, and at real good prices to boot.
As an example, I picked up a Kimber Montana in .325 WSM in pristine condition for $725.00. I think the new price on that rifle is about a $1050. That is the beauty of all of these "experiments". Folks try them, don't like them, and some of us get great deals on the discards.)

Question for those that shoot both the .325 WSM and the 9.3 x 62. Is the recoil that much different between the two?

The 325 is faster and sharper in recoil than the 9,3x62. It's similar to comparing a 300 RUM and a 375 H&H if you've shot those two.

I don't think the 325 is all that bad in the Montana but it isn't a popgun either. One day at the range I let another shooter try out my 325 Montana and he drove straight to the gun store and bought one. Most people that have shot mine commented it wasn't near as bad as they thought it would be.............DJ