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...the 325 WSM. The knock on the 30-06 is not big enough for big bears. The knock on the 338 Win Mag is to heavy for the deer and antelope and every day stuff The 325 WSM splits the difference. Oh I doubt that it will be a big seller but on paper...nice stats. 200 grn bullet SD .274 about 2800 fps for the bigger stuff 180 grn bullet SD of .246 about 2900 for longer range. Short action you could build an 8 lb rifle including scope would be light enough for the mountains. Great all around cartridge for the one rifle hunter. But we all know not a lot of one rifle hunters...So if you are a two rifle hunter you get 270/30-06 and 9.3X62/375HH and your done and the 325 WSM doesn't do anything for you. And us yanks love specialization so I doubt it will sell well. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Interesting post! I have really never considered the 325 WSM. For centerfire, I mainly shoot 6.5x55, 308, and 9.3x62, and I have been finding myself carry the 9.3 more than any other. It is just hard to beat.  | |||
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Mike, You can exceed those velocity levels with the same bullet weights out of a 1912 vintage 300 H&H. And that is with bullets with a much higher SD. I really see no upside except for a short action in the 325. 465H&H | |||
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The 338-06 does a pretty good job of splitting the difference as well and can do anything the 325 can do, using less powder and has a larger frontal diameter. 200gr Accubonds/Bal Tips for the medium game plus you could load it with 225-250gr bullets for the shorter range large bear hunting. Velocity is about the same for both given equal wt tips. My 338-06 Weatherby Ultra-Lightweight is quite the light/handy rifle. No thanks to any of the short mags that the magazines hyped up as a winner in any category. | |||
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The 325 wsm is the only new round that has come out in the past 20 years that interests me. You would think that it would be more popular. | |||
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465HH, But the 325 has the advantage of being a larger diamater bullet. If I wanted to go to maximum penetration I would choose to go to the 220 grn bullet with 325 WSM and have the same SD as a 200 grn .308 and still be at about 2650 fps which would be plenty of velocity. The same thing that can be said of the 300HH can be said of most of the 30 caliber magnums, namely the 300 Win Mag and the 300 WSM. I believe that bigger bullet diameter is also helpful. As I said above the 325 WSM basically splits the difffernce between the 338 WM and the 30-06 which are generally accepted as two of the best all around cartridges. I don't hear a lot of folks saying if you want something in between a 338 Win and a 30-06 get a 300XYZ magnum. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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And you can get the same velocities from 180 and 200 grain 30 cal. bullets, with their superior sectional density, from a 300 Rem. Short Action Ultra Mag, with the same short action. And it's in a .30 caliber -- thus being able to use any and all of the plethora of different .30 cal. bullets available -- instead of the more exotic 325 (actually an 8mm one). The 300 Winchester Short Magnum, in the same cartridge length, can, with suitable handloading, beat the velocity figures of the 300 Rem SAUM by about 100 fps for any bullet weight. Besides the .30 caliber rifles will shoot the lighter and faster 150 grain bullets too, giving it an advantage for long range antelope hunting. So I see no particular advantage to the larger 325 caliber. Here's what David Petzal wrote about the 325 WSM, from: http://www.fieldandstream.com/...25-wsm-browning-bolt "Browning considers this an all-around gun, but I disagree. It's not really a deer gun, but I would certainly use it on bear, elk, or African game." Chuck Hawks wrote: http://www.chuckhawks.com/325wsm.htm "It is becoming apparent that, for technical reasons (i.e. case shape), the much-ballyhooed Winchester Short Magnum is a rather limited design. Winchester tried, and failed, to neck it down to make a viable .25 caliber magnum (thus the introduction of the .25 WSSM instead of a .25 WSM), and failed again when they tried to neck it up to .33, the smallest of the medium bore calibers. Winchester technicians have admitted that the WSM case was optimized for .30 caliber bullets, and that its efficiency falls off rapidly as the caliber is decreased or increased. Evidently the utility of the WSM case lies between .27 caliber and .31 caliber, period. That said, the .325 WSM is a satisfactory cartridge for hunting non-dangerous CXP2 and CXP3 class game, animals from the size of deer and antelope to elk and moose, as long as the shooter can tolerate the substantial recoil." Considering how many American hunters hunt deer, and the considerably smaller number who hunt large bear, elk, or African game, and how many head of bear, elk, and African game have been successfully taken with .30 caliber rifles, I think the claim is specious that the 325 is a good candidate for an all-around rifle. "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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I have been told before "If you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all" I don't usualy use that good advise...I will this time. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I really thought about this one, but the bullet selection is a bit limited in 8mm. My hunting rifle for the past three has been a CZ in 9.3X62 just plain works but a bit heavy. Just bought a 338 Federal, to me fits for a shorter range mid bore. Great bullet selection SA and a lite rifle. | |||
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Woodie, I agree the 338-06 is great and that is what is my current custom rifle is being built in. When I look at the 338-06 and the 325 WSM...I would give the edge to 338-06 for big stuff inside of 250 yards with the 225s and I would give the edge to 325 WSM for long range and would use the 180s and be at 2900 and a little. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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True there is a bigger bullet selection in 338 and 300. However: Hornday: 150 and 195 Nosler: 180 BT and 200 AB PT Barnes: 180, 200, 220 Sierra: 150 PH, 175PH, and 220 GK Speer: 150, 170, 200 Swift A Frame: 200 and 220 Probably about the same as 9,3 bullets Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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LE, I read all that before I posted it and happen to disagree with much of it. The reason I disagree with it is the logic doesn't hold. A 30-06 is a great all around cartridge and it launches a .308 diameter bullet weighing 180 grns, with an SD of .271, and a nominal velocity of 2750 fps but is considered a little to light for the big stuff. A 338 WM is a great all around cartridge and it launches a .338 diameter bullet weiging 225 (typo corrected) grns, with an SD of .281, and a nominal velocity of 2775 fps. but is considered a little to heavy for the light stuff. How is it that a: 325 WSM that launches a .323 diameter bullet weiging 200 grns, with an SD of .274, and a nominal velocity of 2800 fps is not the near perfect solution. Sure you can talk about brass availability but if that were the case the same could be said of almost all new cartridges and tons of people say...I am a handloader and I don't care. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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And here I had my fingers crossed that the 318 W-R might have come out on top.  Try as I might, I just can't get enthusiastic about any of the WSM cartridges, although I am a big 8mm fan so the 325 is kind of interesting to me. Where do you think the new 338 Ruger Compact Magnum would fit into the equation? | |||
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325 WSM is a very interesting cartridge. I bought a 338 Federal instead. I don't plan on hunting brown bear so it can do what the 325 can do inside of 300 yards which is about as far as I would ever consider taking a shot. It does it with less powder and less recoil. | |||
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Not according to the figures in the Nosler Reloading Guide, 5th ed. The 180 gr. .338 bullet has a SD of .225, and has a velocity of 3100 to 3200+ fps when loaded in the .338 Winchester Magnum, depending on the loading. (Since SD is not dependent on bullet shape, all 180 gr .338 bullets will have the same SD.) So the conclusions you attempted to draw about the .338 Win Mag in comparison to the 325 WSM are based on a faulty premise about the .338 "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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Lloyd, I made a typo...in copying and pasting part of my text. The analysis is for the 225 338. If you will notice the SD listed is for the 225 338 and the velocity list is for the 225 338. It is fairly obvious I am comparing a 180 308, to a 200 323, to 225 338 which is the correct comparison and my analysis still holds true. It would make no sense to compare a 200 grn 323 to a 180 grn 338. You can run the exact same comparison going up and down the weight for caliber continum for both those cartridges and you will get the same basic results. A 325 WSM will launch a 170 grn bullets with a SD of .233 at about 3100 fps. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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You can use a 325!! I'll stick to my 338wm or 300 H+H. Can you even find a gun chambered in the 325? I have not seen one other than a closeout model 70 that is years old! How about cases? Have not seen any of them either--- or ammo for that matter. The 325 is an idea that was DOA on introduction!! | |||
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it serves no real purpose, except to hopefully sell a few new rifles to "newbie" big game hunters. The "light weight and short action" advantages are mostly between some marketing guys ears. Eat one less Big Mac a month for a year and you eliminate the weight issue. Let me know the next time you can feel 3/8ths of an inch less bolt stroke blindfolded. Rich | |||
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The 338WM and the 300 H&H are great rounds, I have a pre 64 in 300H&H it will get the job done. Perhaps better than the 300WM with heavier bullets. It is still a 26" barrel and a heavy rifle. The 338 WM is a bit stout in the recoil department. I was looking for a lite weight medium bore for woods hunting when I picked the 338 Federal, I would say it would depend on the type of hunting one expects as to which is the "best" My first centerfire deer rifle was M98 in 8mm, it too will get the job done, I still have it but the given the cost to make it a custom rifle with all I wanted it was much cheaper to just get the Tikka in 338 Federal. | |||
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OK You've established that the .325 WSM is more powerful than a 30-06 (but not more powerful than a 300 Rem SAUM or .300 WSM -- it is approximately equal in power to those, and offers no genuine advantages over them) but less powerful than a .338 Win. Mag. My question is similar to the one Elmer Keith asked when the 8mm Rem. Mag. was introduced: Who needs it? (I think Keith was supposed to have asked, "What the hell good is it?") For many shooters the 30-06 is at the top of their recoil tolerance level. And 30-06 ammo is ubiquitous, relatively cheap, and available in a wide variety of bullet weights and types. Every species of big game animal native to North America has been killed successfully many times with a 30-06. In fact, the .270 is a better choice than the 30-06 for anything smaller than elk or moose, and elk and moose have been killed successfully hundreds of times with a .270 If you really need something bigger than a 30-06 -- and you don't except for moose and the biggest bears and maybe elk at long distances -- then go for one of the .300 magnums or a .338 or .375. If you're into exotics or like the idea of being different from the pack or want to have to search far and wide for brass or ammunition, then you may have a good argument for the 325 WSM. But that's the only good argument for it. Moreover, the increase in diameter from a 30 caliber bullet (.308) to an 8mm caliber bullet (.323) is small enough (.015) that goes against one of the things you (correctly!) ridicule in your signature list, e.g. "2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps." "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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Mike is just trying to make me puke with this one. The 325 WSM is like a woman with one boob. Sure, it works, but there is just something wrong about it. Had winchester been on the ball, they would have been the first to legitimize the 338-06 and I would be telling everyone how winnie made the perfect rifle. John | |||
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Let's see 1. can you find a gun in 325 WSM, yep just check gun broker there is a ton of them. Browning, Winchester, Savage, and Kimber all makem. 2. Rich is there a need for the 325WSM...absolutely not...but then again there has not been a need for a new cartridge since 270 was invented. By 1925: the 270 Win (great flat shooting varmints and light game), 30-06 great all around, 375HH and 416 Rigby great dangerous game were all in existence. If you want to say the 243 win and 338 win fill needs then I will give you to about 1958 (IIRC). Rich - how many overlapping cartridges do you have in your battery? Do you NEED all of them. 3. Lloyd - It looks like you are actually proving by point. It is equal in power to 300 WSM and there is an advantage in its larger diameter bullet that provides a better wound channel. Therefore, all else equal the 325 WSM is slightly better. 4. Lloyd - the point is best all around so saying that well you should either drop to a 270 or go to a 375HH is the wrong argument because now we are not talking about all around. I am firm believer that from antelope to moose 95% of those animals are going to be just as dead whether they were shot with a 270 or a 338 win mag. The difference is going to be passing up a marginal shot or not passing up shot. All of my points have been about all around performance of the cartridge, not about would I buy one or not or how available ammo is etc. I wouldn't buy 325 WSM. I shoot a 308 Win with either 180 grn TSXs at 2625 fps or 165grn GMXS at 2750. If I don't think the 308 is big enough I get my 376 Steyr. I have 338-06 being built and don't know why. That doesn't mean I don't recognize that the 325 WSM has very sweet set of performance characteristics to the point of being the best all around. I continually find it amazing as soon as you say WSM so many people want to talk about how there is no need...it ain't about need. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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John, I like to think of it as cup sizes. the 30-06 is like 34Cs perfectly adequate and stay perky longe, the 338 win mag are 36Ds lots of fun but they can get in the way sometimes. The 325 WSM is like a 35 C/D. Perfect but it so hard to buy the Mrs or GF sexy matching bras and panties cause they are kinda an oddball. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Personally, guns are a lot like boobs, if you are a good shooter, the size doesn't matter. Of the WSM offerings, the 325 (8mm perhaps) made the most sense. Then again, we already had the 350 rem mag which is even a better performer, albeit in some rather odd looking rifles. By biggest problem with the Short Mags is that they don't offer the reloaders the versatility of the older cartridges. Other than that, they are OK enough. John Long live the 350 rem mag! | |||
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I once had the wonderful opportunity to share the better part of a week as part of a group hunting red stags in Scotland with Gene Hill, the famous author. One evening, Mr. Hill and I were discussing bird shooting, and he said something to me that I've never forgotten, Gene said "Anything a 20 gauge will do, a 12 gauge will do better." That's sort of how I look at the 325wsm. Anything the 325wsm can do, the 338winmag can do better. | |||
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Interesting topic. We have a one man vote on the best medium bore cartridge and a winner is proclaimed. "New best all around medium bore for NA....the winner is...the .325 Win Short Mag". That's a bit surprising as most including Chuck Hawks don't even consider the 8MM a medium bore. A quote from his site. "QUOTE" The Medium Bore Rifle Cartridges By Chuck Hawks The medium bore rifle cartridges are those for .33 to .39 caliber rifles. They are mostly intended for use on very large and/or dangerous game. The only really popular medium bore caliber in North America is the .338 Winchester Magnum, which is regarded as the perfect elk caliber in the West, and widely used for all Alaskan heavy and dangerous game. For use in short action rifles the .350 Remington Magnum provides similar capability and has a cadre of hard core fans. "QUOTE" I guess Mike disagrees so to "him" the winner is the .325 WSM. OK, for him it is.  Personally after purchasing a .350 Mag in a Remington Classic years back (the Remington Classic offering in 1984 I believe), I was really annoyed by the typical short action magnum issue of having to seat the bullet so deeply into the case to fit the magazine you lose case capacity (especially with the heavier bullets). I know with my .350 I replaced the magazine box with a longer one and altered the feed ramp, picked up a full .3 of an inch in seating depth. It was chronoing 225 grainers at 2,800ish FPS give or take and 250's at 2,660ish as memory serves, a real thumper after the modifications (basically turned it into a .358 Norma ballistically). I'll never have another short action magnum as a personal choice, senseless IMO. If your gonna have the case capacity ya oughta be able to reap the benefits of it in my opinion. I do currently have a .358 Win in a Savage 99 I like very much as a hunting rifle, love it in fact. 225 grain Sierra's or Partitions at 2,380ish make it an effective 300 yard hunting weapon. All that said and as much as I like the .35 cal's with their much larger bullet choice and larger frontal area than the 8MM's and even though they are my favorites it'd be foolish to think the .338 Win. Mag. isn't the North American King of medium bores regardless of my personal favorites. .35 calibers have never been very popular in American, 8MM's so much the less so (the 8MM Mag shoulda been a raging success as an elk rifle and it went over like a lead balloon). The dearth of 8MM bullet offerings show it's popularity here in the States whether it's a justifiable disdain or not, people just don't want em. Personally I think the .35's oughta be a lot more popular than they are as well but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't. I think I'll cast my vote for the .35 Whelen and to "me" that'll be the king of the medium bores, the .35 Whelen is a true medium bore and it makes a lotta sense! One other personal observation as to some rounds like the .338 being to large for deer etc. I know I shot deer with 250 grain Hornady's out of my .350 mag at 2,660ish and you could eat right up to the hole, less meat damage by far than say a .270 with a 130 grainer. The 220 grain Speer flat tip Hot Core kills em like ya dropped a safe on em with minimal damage. Lotta good rounds out there, everyone get's to pick their own "winner" in my opinion. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Im a big fan of 9,3x62, you are dressed for most games on eart with yhis caliber. I use it from fox to moose! Recoil is moderat, but hit game hard. Have been a 30-06 befor but 9,3 is better in my eyes. Matts | |||
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I was expecting some of the European shooters to mention that one. Magnificent round but not very popular in North America. Another one of those "should be popular but isn't" rounds like my .358 Winchester. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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MontDoug, I am defining medium bore as this site defines it: .277-.366. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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John, 350 Rem Mag is good except in comparable bullet weights (i.e. equal SDs) its is about 200 fps slower than the 325 WSM. So the WSM has a trajectory advantage.  Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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DLS, You are right the 338WM can do everything better than 325 WSM. The point,however, is the the 338WM is "too much" for "every day use". But the 338 WM can do everything better than 30-06 and the 358 STA can do everything better than 338WM where do you draw the line. All, I have fulfilled my sh*t stirring quota for 2010...Happy New Year. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I would like to have seen the venerable 8X57 make a resurgence. Anyone who has seriously played with an old surplus Mauser knows this is a first rate round lost in the ashes of two world wars. Norma sells top notch ammo and hand loaders can whip up about anything needed. | |||
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Unfortunately, it will NOT do what EITHER the 30-06 or the 338 WILL do and this thread is about finding a round that WILL do what BOTH the others can. | |||
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CUP SIZES...LOLOLOL!!! I would stick with the .300 win mag. Just enough more than 30-06 for big stuff and can be handled no problem in a 7Lb. rifle. .325 too gimicky, .338 too much, .300 WM--JUST RIGHT ! | |||
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Those interested might want to take a look at Ken Royce's thoughts on the 325WSM in his really excellent book, Safari Dreams. He likes it a lot, and tells us why. Me? 30.06/220 the greatest of plenty. If not, 375 H&H. There are those here who might suggest that I suffer from a lack of imagination. Good hunting, ans a great New Year to all. | |||
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You mean I shouldn't have used it on those Blacktails, mule deer, pronghorns and whitetails I've killed with it? Or, the bushbuck, impala or even klipspringers? I never knew that! I thought it was a pretty good round for them, as there is generally no tracking involved, they tend to drop within sight. As for where do you draw the line, I'll say you draw it at factory cartridges. Wildcats are all well and good (and I shoot one, a 416 Hoffman) but for purposes of practicality I think you should be cmoparing standard factory rounds, and in that regard I still think the 338wm holds up very well in all regards. | |||
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Um, er, the 8X57 is very much like the 30-06 and it, like the 325, splits the difference between the -06 and various 338s. Efficient and powerful, what's not to like? Of course the answer already exists, and it's called the 9.3X62. I never gave serious consideration to the less powerful 9.3X57, or the wildcat 338-06. The 35 Whelen is an odd duck too because of the varying twist rates in semi-custom rifles. If you're one that believes a well dressed cartridge wears a belt, buy a 338 Winchester. | |||
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 Very entertaining topic, and conducted in such a gentlemanly manner. GREAT NEW YEAR All!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Oh. Then I still proclaim the .35 Whelen my winner and my .300 Win Mag with a 190 grain Hornady BTSP InterLock @ 3.000ish FPS. A close runner up. I still think short fat magnums make no sense except to the gun makers. From the astounding lack of sales of em I am not alone in my assessment. I have a real top gun smith that does a lotta work for me, he won't build a rifle with a WSM reamer, not even the customers. But that's a whole nuther personal and political story of greed and intrigue. I just like to shoot and admire wildcatters who wildcat for a hobby and the good of the sport in general, whole different breed. Actually and in truth I'm an anarchist, everyone gets their very own "Winner"!!! More of this .Less of this     . Happy new year guys. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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