I need to be able to pick the brains of a Moisin Nagant expert (or at least experienced owner). They are selling them at the range I frequent (approx. $135) and my wife has noticed me looking covetously at them plus my son told me he just bought one few days ago.

I have some questions I don't necessarily want to bother the whole group with. I figure we could communicate in a private thread or via PM.

Why in "sam hill" would anyone buy a Mosin for $135 when he can have a M-98 in 8 X 57 for only a few dollars more.

With a M-98 you have a real rifle.....with a Mosin you have a %&J*^@KL

and yes, I have experience with them....someone els's and from that single experience I didn't buy one of my own!

So, what's your point?

KB

Mosin Nagant riles are great fun. I've reloaded for a few and just had fun shooting a few. Is a stronger action on the market, I think not.

At the range Wed. a young fellow that never shot a bolt action had a nice looking Nangant with a 4 X scope that he scout mounted on a home grown mount.I helped him bore site it and within a half hour he was shooting a 6 shot 1" group at 50 yds.with some Euro ammo I,d never seen before. This young man was all smiles and so was I.
At his age I was having a ball with my Carcano.
If you want some simple enjoyment and can afford it *** get it. roger

They, and the ammo, are cheap and fun to shoot. I have both Russian and Finnish versions.

Nagant Forum:

http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?board=1.0

I consider most of the old military rifles in the same catagory, like the Mosin, the Jap 99, and the Carcano, for examples, but I agree with Vapo that the Mauser 98 is in a different class. They are all fun and probably safe. I was only teasing Vapo. I prefer Mausers, and I have several, but none of the other mil-surp.

I have shot several of those mentioned, and enjoyed them. But once you study a Mauser, it's a glimpse into the mind of a genius, like the inventions of Browning for comparison. The others are interesting of course, and it’s interesting to see where they didn’t quite get it right as a Mauser, even the clones, like the Jap 99, and the Springfield are flawed in comparison. I'm not a collector, so I own rifles simply to shoot them.

KB

quote:

Why in "sam hill" would anyone buy a Mosin for $135 when he can have a M-98 in 8 X 57 for only a few dollars more.

Cause that's what they're selling at the range? Haven't seen an Mauser 98 there (anywhere else for that matter) so have no point of comparison. Also, aren't those the rifles the Muj are using to such devastating effect against our troops in the Rockpile?

I was looking for a MN mavin for some questions I have. Didn't really want to go through the hassle of joining another forum. Guess I will have to do so. Sorry to have upset you, vapodog. BTW, I tried one m'self. Action was a tad stiff - sorta like I'd expect from something made for Russian men - but I got withing a couple of inches at 25 yds on the first shot - not bad considering the rear sight hadn't been adjusted. No idea how far off the windage might've been.

But if it will make you happy, I'll take my stupid questions about MNs elsewhere. Again, I apologize for upsetting you, vapodog.

quote:

But if it will make you happy, I'll take my stupid questions about MNs elsewhere. Again, I apologize for upsetting you, vapodog.

Hey guy.....you haven't upset me in the least. I could care less if you buy all the MNs on the planet.....It's your money....spend it your way....Have a ball......

But why so secretive?....if you have a few questions just ask away.....maybe someone has the answers.

B Mullins,

Take a look at this thread :

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/1031011831

Lots of examples of what can be done with a MN.

Mr. Mullins -

Weigh everything you read here and on every other gun board against your own observations, common sense, likes, dislikes, and interests.

Some boards, this one for instance, salaam to the mighty Mauser as el Capo de tutti capi. On some other boards, if it in't a Remington it is a POS. I'm sure there's a gun board somewhere the members consider the only military rifle worth firing to be flint-ignited and have a .57 caliber barrel 48" long.

Military rifles are all fun, if a person is capable of appreciating what they are, were, and can be. So are almost all sporters. None of the military ones were junk unless made in time of war by a nation which was losing to the point it couldn't afford better either time, material, skill, or money wise.

My Finnish M28/30 Moisin Nagant by SAKO will easily shoot MOA 5-shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights and handloads it likes. It isn't one of my favourite rifles because it is a bit ugly (kind of like being a "bit" pregnant) and long enough to be somewhat awkward in the bush. But, it is a GOOD rifle, simple, strong, accurate, inexpensive, and sturdy as a T-34 Russian tank. The awkward and ugly are just my personal judgements, based on my own biases.

Ever so often I like to take it to the range so it can remind me that all good rifles don't need to be dolled up, OR cost $7,000.

If it looks like fun to you, buy it. You'll always be able to sell it for what you'll have in it....probably more as our asinine federal government of self-ordained aristocrats cuts off more and more firearms imports in their selfish drive to disempower the people.

old west scronger has nagants for 89 bucks.

if you are getting a zombie raiding rifle, get a 308 or 223 bolt gun.. and a hand reloading kit for both...

12ga, 223, 308, 9mm, 45acp, 357rev, 22lr .. these are the most common ammo in this country, by round count and sheld space. walmart nor bubba's store as 7,62x54r (7,62x53r is EXACTLY the same ammo) and ALL milsurp x54 is corrosive.

You can use any .308", .310", .311", .312" or .313" diameter bullets in the 7.62 x 54R/53R case and barrel though and with American powders and primers, you can match .30-06 ballistics with a much less expensive gun than '06s are available for these days.

Plus I wouldn't feel too bad about having to hide one by burying it...and even having to walk away and leave it buried for a few years if need be. If I forgot all about it, how much would I be out? $89 plus the cost of any ammo I buried with it. Cheap "insurance".

Not that I think there will be a violent revolution in the U.S. within the next 15 years. Americans talk tough, but they are a docile lot at heart. They are taught that from day 1 in American schools, and in many, many ways it is a good thing.

Docility makes it possible to settle differences without destroying ourselves. Remember, in ANY and EVERY revolution it is the good people who suffer most, and mainly they are the ones who are killed or die from lack of resources during the revolution and afterward.

It is NOT a good answer to any social problem. Take a look at how governments change in the Near East, almost all of Africa, or much of South America for several hundred years, then show me how revolutions have helped them solve their problems. It didn't. For that matter, look back to the 1917 revolution in Russia. Though the intent of the Mensheviks may have been good, look how much good the revolt actually did the Russians. None, until after the death of Stalin about 40 years later...the Mensheviks lost the civil war which resulted from the revolt and were pretty much murdered en masse. The Bolsheviks thought they had won, but actually just were murdered in turn by the Leninists and Stalinists.

There is no good outcome from the violent overthrow of society, regardless what the dreamers envision.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

There is no good outcome from the violent overthrow of society, regardless what the dreamers envision.

There may be an exception or two ! 1776 and 1812. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

There is no good outcome from the violent overthrow of society, regardless what the dreamers envision.

There may be an exception or two ! 1776 and 1812. roger

or the one coming up

If you need a defective door stop use a Mosin Nagant rifle!!! I had one that my son dropped on me and it looked to be in very good to excellent condition but it wouldn't hit a bucket at 30 yds reliably.

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:

quote:

Why in "sam hill" would anyone buy a Mosin for $135 when he can have a M-98 in 8 X 57 for only a few dollars more.

It's about a tool to use to help defend our family's freehold after TEOTWAWKI.

I think the M.N. has found a perfect home with Mr. Mullins.

KB

What is Kabluey doing here? I thought his expertise, knowledge and usage of rifles was strictly .223's.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
What is Kabluey doing here? I thought his expertise, knowledge and usage of rifles was strictly .223's.

If a small portion of my knowledge and expertise beyond the 223 is news to you, then you would find the full scope of my opinions unimaginable.

What are you doing here, besides messing with me? Has a M.N. or two found a home with you too?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

There is no good outcome from the violent overthrow of society, regardless what the dreamers envision.

There may be an exception or two ! 1776 and 1812. roger

Roger, what violent overthrow of society occured in 1812? A war between two sovereign nations occured, but the society of neither was overthrown, if you are speaking of the one between England and the U.S.

And there was also no revolution in England in 1776. A colony (ours), with its own existing society far distant and different from their's, declared its independence and enforced it by use of arms, but it was not an overthrow of English society, which continued to exist just fine. It separated U.S. society legally from English society.

The U.S. civil war is a fine example of a revolution within a nation, and there is considerable debate today whether the demolition of "states' rights" and the resulting unchecked ascendency of the central federal government which occured as a result was a benefit overall, compared to what might have otherwise evolved.

Anyone who thinks a coming violent revolution in the U.S. will be a good thing for the people living here has obviously not learned from what has happened to the people in other countries who have in the last half century been "the beneficiaries" of modern weapons applied to their lives. Think destruction of food and water and their distribution, destruction of power sources, destruction of medicine manufacturies, an end to gasoline refineries, and so on and so on, then tell me it really is a good thing.

Only dreamers can conceive it is, and they don't dream they will be among those directly damaged victims. But most all of them will be if it happens.

My opinion.

I can see where people should band together to change many things in our country, but to violently destroy them? No sir!

I have a few 91/30's. They are accurate enough to break clays on a berm at 100 yards, with the right ammo. 180gr heavy ball is very accurate, 147..152gr light ball is minute of man. One issue it suffers from is they tried to duplicate brit MKVII ball ammo by making the bullet w/ a hollow nose under the case. They did not do so well. Still fun, cheap trigger time. BTW, I also have about 8 Mausers. Too each their own.

Kableuewy wrote:

quote:

Has a M.N. or two found a home with you too?

Nah. My son bought one and has a clamp-on (on the bbl clamp-on) bipod coming. I tried to tell him it could screw up his accuracy but he won't listen. As for me, I don't need a bolt gun. My FNAR is as accurate or MORE accurate as most bolt guns - sub 1 MOA - and semi-auto with 20 round mag to boot.

Alberta Canuck, I am well aware what a protracted conflict will mean. While the 1st American Revolution did not overthrow society in Great Britain, it definitely upset things on THIS side of the pond. While the actual story line in the film "The Patriot" is fictional, in many ways it is quite factual. There really was a Major Taffington. He has a statue in Trafalger Square.

What they had in the 1860s was [u]NOT[/u] a Civil War. A civil war is where two or more factions fight for control of the country. The CSA had no interest in how the USA did things. They just wanted to be left alone. That murdering, constitution breaking barstid Lincoln engineered a war of conquest. When I was growing up, the war in the 1860s was most often referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression". Lincoln believed the union was paramount, 10th Amendment be damned.

A revolution in the USA now would almost certainly result in the fall of western civilization and the deaths of hundreds of millions if not BILLIONS world wide. (PM me for what I believe will happen.)

The alternative is a soviet-style socialist distopia with the ruling elites living in high style and the masses living in over-crowded concrete boxes. They've already said they want population densities in cities to be >80 people/acre and EVERYONE forced to use public transportation. To make that "dream" (nightmare is more like it) a reality they will have to gulag the dissidents and disarm the populous. Somewhere in there they will overstep themselves and spark a rebellion.

And as for the rank and file Americans? Well, in the 1st American Revolution no more than 3% ever actively fought against the British and by war's end more were fighting FOR the crown than against it.

I think John Stuart Mill said it best:

quote:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Bill,

FNAR is a nice rifle. Good choice. I have a few of those "sport utility rifles". They are great fun to shoot and I sleep better with a few in the safe.

The word for yesterday was TEOTWAWKI
http://teotwawki.ws/

Now the word for today is:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proselytize

Kabluewy wrote:

quote:

The word for yesterday was TEOTWAWKI
http://teotwawki.ws/

Now the word for today is:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proselytize

I HOPE you're not referring to ME there, boomer. I'm not trying to proselytize anyone. I actually hope that most folks - yourself especially - are caught utterly by surprise when the revolution comes. Herd NEEDS a good cullin'.

OK, since we are talking about your dream of the future, I'll give you tomorrow's word today: godforsaken
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/God-forsaken
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/godforsaken

Your dream is as ancient as humanity:
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." George Orwell

Fortunately there is an alternate vision:
“We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. In this world, hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the Law, ancient and inexhaustible. We are what we think.” The Buddha

Which is the better vision?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

There is no good outcome from the violent overthrow of society, regardless what the dreamers envision.

There may be an exception or two ! 1776 and 1812. roger

Roger, what violent overthrow of society occured in 1812? A war between two soverign nations occured, but the society of neither was overthrown, if you are speaking of the one between England and the U.S.

no biggy,but,we may be having a difference in the definition and or understanding of verbiage and terms .
The rest of your post would make for interesting face to face conversation ,really, but not on this thread. roger

I agree, Roger, this thread is not the place for it.

I also agree it is probably different verbage that is partially at play here.

I also stress that my stated view is one tryng to address the good of the majority of those involved AT THE TIME, not just to enumerate the winner's benefits.

It is worth remembering that in the U.S. "revolution" only about 15% supported the rebels, and an estimated 85% supported the Tories (or possibly didn't much care, one way or the other). But history has been written ever since as if it was a great popular uprising supported by 100% of the colonists. The victors always write the history, and usually not from a totally unbiased viewpoint.


Anyway, if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you FTF, I'd be most pleased to host you out by the pool and see if over a few brewskis we couldn't enjoy a good verbal joust with each other on ANY subject.

Hopefully, we'd each come away feeling we had the solution to the world's ills if only we were elected co-Gods.

AC and Roger, I have very much appreciated and related to your posts, thus far, here and elsewhere.

Here's something to think about, relating to the undercurrent of this thread:

“We are much beholden to Machiavelli and others, that write what men do, and not what they ought to do. For it is not possible to join serpentine wisdom with the columbine innocence, except men know exactly all the conditions of the serpent; his baseness and going upon his belly, his volubility and lubricity, his envy and sting, and the rest; that is, all forms and natures of evil. For without this, virtue lieth open and unfenced. Nay, an honest man can do no good upon those that are wicked, to reclaim them, without the help of the knowledge of evil.“ Francis Bacon

"Bacon, Locke and Newton. I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical and Moral sciences". Thomas Jefferson

Mr. Mullins - Afer reading your last long post, I find you and I stand closer together politically than you would ever dream.

Still I see the occurance of any violent revolution in the U.S. as a tradgedy of the worst sort. Now that I am too old to survive it, no matter how prepared, I do my best to take steps which would avoid such a calamity befalling any of us. To accept it as inevitable is simply a cop-out for not working one's ass off to prevent it.

While we still DO have the rights of assembly, of independent teaching and speech, and of voting, and many other useful non-violent actions it is time to be doing those things which will prevent such a calamity from occuring...not just blathering about it.

IT CAN be avoided peacefully. It just takes men who are willing to lead and willing to think and reason to take action....NOT to propose, not to teach the inevitibility of, and not to resign themselves to, failure. It will only come to pass if you and I and our communities allow it to.

P.S: I too was raised in a family which always referred to the Civil War as the War of Northern Agression. The only change I would make to that term is I would call it "The War of Northern Corporate Aggression". Northern industrial barons vs. the Southern agriculturalists who realized their presence in the union was not appropriate, and who wished to exercise the right they had been guaranteed as a condition of joining the Union in the first place...the right to leave the Union upon a vote by their state's citizens to do so.

Ciao, y'all.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Mr. Mullins - Afer reading your last post, I find you and I stand closer together politically than you would ever dream.

The above statment seems to be in total contridiction with the rest of your post.

Culling the herd is not political, IMO - it's pure attitude. Are you saying that you share that attitude?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Mr. Mullins - Afer reading your last post, I find you and I stand closer together politically than you would ever dream.

The above statment seems to be in total contridiction with the rest of your post.

KB

Kabluewy - I am sorry, I know it appears confusing...that's because I am trying to stress agreement on "major stands" politically, not detail.

For instance, contrary to him, I think the U.S. Civil War was indeed a civil war, but not one started by the would-be CSA. I see it as a war started by Northern revolutionists (who also happened to be very wealthy industrialists) who were treating the South as their own "colonies" and wanted to change the existing social contract so the South could NOT exercize its right to leave the union.

That very subject was debated for over three years prior to the war on the floors of the U.S. Congress. So, in that area he and I have similar beliefs, though not identical.

I also get the mpression he is not looking forward to another U.S. Civil War, just trying to prepare for one he thinks inevitable. From his long post, I also gather he feels it will be a disaster of the first water.

I don't agree that it is inevitable, but I do agree it would be a disaster. I don't bother to prepare for it, because having seen civil wars in other countries, I do not WANT to live through that horror happening at first hand to my community or my countrymen. At my age, better to just move on to the next stage of existance. A person only can bear seeing a certain amount of horror in a lifetime. I have not yet reached my limit, but am close.

Anyway, back to Moisin Nagants, eh? I believe they are basically good rifles. Surely some have been mistreated to the point where they are no longer such, but when they were made, they were sturdy, accurate (for military bolt actions), easy to teach soldiers to use, thoroughly modern, and easy to maintain in fighting condition.

The ones which haven't been destroyed by ill use and bad conditions still are, in my view.

Would the Russian armies have done better on the field of battle had they all been armed with glorious Mausers? I doubt it very much.

And they will still kill a hunter's game as dead as any other military rifle. Beautiful? NO!! Effective? YES!!

Best wishes to you, my friend.

Thank you AC, for clarification. I really appreciate the time you took to think through it. You are still a gentleman and scholar in my estimation. I have been under the impression for some time that we could learn something from your wisdom. I'm pleased that my impressions have been sustained.

Now, that isn't to say that we are in agreement on all the issues. We can discuss the past - the civil war - another time. I'm talking about the future, and I am focusing on subtle yet profound particulars imbedded in the survivalists' dream.

One of the first things we can learn from you is the art of PC, which I do believe you are near the level of master.

I, OTOH, have much to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
At my age, better to just move on to the next stage of existance.

I can relate to that.

Here are parting and hopefully final thoughts on the subject of civil war and revolution:

“In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher. We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves. Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.” Dalai Lama

“Today, more than ever before, life must be characterized by a sense of Universal responsibility, not only nation to nation and human to human, but also human to other forms of life. Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.” Dalai Lama

And here's my favorite quote of all. Until I read this, I had no appreciation of Charlie as a master of irony.

“I have defeated this earthworm with my words. Imagine what I would have done with my fire breathing fists.” Charlie Sheen

KB

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:

I HOPE you're not referring to ME there, boomer. I'm not trying to proselytize anyone. I actually hope that most folks - yourself especially - are caught utterly by surprise when the revolution comes. Herd NEEDS a good cullin'.

I've never placed anyone on ignore but after this statement I've pretty much heard all I need to know about your way of thinking. Hoping for the killing of fellow Americans or "culling" right before the 10 year anniversary of 9/11? You should be ashamed.

Kabluewy, you have a PM. You have my permission to pass it on to ScottfromDallas. Or, if I have your permission, I will do so.

Scott from Dallas - you have a PM

WTF is wrong w/ you guys? Talk about trashing a thread. Most have distain for the rifle already. Go back to the sand box! (Elementary school that is) You can wait till cookie time and have at it.
You bring the term PM back to the female version. You should be ashamed!

AAWWEE, can't we have a little fun? The M. N. is so boring. except for its place in history.

You stand 400 yards out. See how boring it is. The OP has 25 posts. Yes Mil surp section would have been better, but WTF are you guys talking about?
What is the better way to take control of a FU gov't? Be realistic. Take the political bantering to the proper thread. This Aint' it. I have a few 91/30's as I said. They'll shoot the balls of a dog at 200 yards w/ the right ammo. Open sight. I also have a 1942 PU 91/30 that will take that to 400+ yards.
I respect what I read here on a serious note. Imagine a Noob w/ 25 posts reading some BS. Please, go play in PM land. This really makes this forum look bad to a noob.

I clearly remember my first experience here as a "noob". 22WRF jumped my case thoroughly. He was in the mood back then, and since we have made peace with each other and a better understanding and appreciation, at least on my part.

There was one big difference in my introduction to AR, compared to this thread of Mr. Mullin's. Although 22WRF dealt with me in words, those words did not contain a threat of life, nor did my response to him. Being a Southerner, by birth and spirit, I do not take such things lightly with regard to significance.

I have no mercy for "noobs". Sink or swim. It's called initiation, and my intent is in good faith, or it ain't worth doing.

Mr. Mullins strikes me as a big boy anyway. At least he has big boy ideas.

KB