I just got to wondering one night. What would hunting be like if the 30-06 was not invented? It has been around for 104 years and it is still going strong. Everyone that I know has at least one rifle in this caliber if not a few. If you ask someone what my first rifle should be, most everyone says get a 06. This caliber has won wars, and taken countless animals in the field. There are countless other calibers based off the 30-06: 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 280, 338-06, 35 whelen, there might be more I just can’t think of them off the top of my head. Where would we be if this round was not invented? I also got to thinking if the 300 savage would have won the machine gun contract and not the 308, would everyone be shooting 300 savages and then basing other calibers off that and not the 308. Are any of the new Short Mags, really going to last as long as these proven and tried cartridges? I’m new to this forum and maybe you have debated this before, but I find it interesting.

As close as all of the other available cartridges are, we'd not even notice it. 7x64, 9.3 and the other metrics would take it's place.

Part of the reason for switching to 308 has to do with its thicker rim. Better machine gun round. The thin rim is a failing of 556/223 as well as 30-06.

There are several countries (e.g. France) where the .30-06 (and other military calibers) are banned. People there somehow manage to get by. Here are some of the popular alternatives: 7x64, .270 Win, .280 Rem, 8x57IRS, 9.3x62, .300 Win Mag. None of these are a perfect match, but people manage...

- mike

Oh dear, I don't have a 30-06! I even sold the one I had.
I use the .308, 7x64 and 9.3x62 instead.
Should I feel castrated?

Another alternative for the 30-06: 30-06 AI

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

Part of the reason for switching to 308 has to do with its thicker rim. Better machine gun round. The thin rim is a failing of 556/223 as well as 30-06.

Yes that .005" has really crippled the ammo sales, reliability and popularity of the 30/06.

I'd imagine we'd get by with all of the other capable cartridges that are out there. But think about it. The 30-06 is the parent case for the 6mm-06, 25-06, 270WCF, 280 Rem, 8mm-06, 338-06 and the 35 and 400 Whelen. Then it was the inspiration for a whole family of cartridges based on the 308WCF. So I'd say the good ole 30-06 has earned it's place in history.

If we didn't have the 30-06 I'd just use my 7X57.

+2 for the 7x57

Ryan B. Al little history on the adoption of the 7.62X51, as a replacement for the 30-06(7.62X63). The primary reason for the adoption of the 308, was to lighten the load of the troop who carried the ammo in the field. It was reasoned, that a troop could carry 100 rounds of 308, compared to approx. 80 of 30-06 for the same weight. Also, the fact that the case was .5" shorter, improved the cycle rate of fire, approx. 100 rounds per minute. As to the rim, I have not been involved in that discussion, either as a soldier or a civilian, until now. The 308, accomplishes what the military needed in ammo specs, about 2800 fps, with a 150 grain bullet, by running the pressures higher in the shorter case. Still the 30-06, is the parent cartridge, and everyone ought to have a couple.

Jerry

Well if there was no 30.06 it would be a great loss to the shooting world. Just look at all the popular cartridges adopted from it.

30.06
25-06
.270 Win
.280
338-06
.35 Whelen

.308 Win
.243 Winchester
.260 Rem
7mm-08
338 federal.

We wouldn't just loose the old venerable 30.06, but everything based on it.

My personal choice for most of my big game hunting is the 30-06. I have used numerous other cartridges but the '06 gets the nod when the hunting is serious. I have killed hogs, deer, bear, elk, cariboo, Rocky mountain Big Horn sheep with it without problem. It has the accuracy, power and range that fits my hunting needs. I couldn't ask for more. Since it is the "standard" most all other cartridges are judged by why not just use the standard to begin with, works for me.

Now if the '06 had not come to be I could probably get along quite well hunting big game with the 7.65 Argentine or the 8x57. However I would have probably gravitated to the 300 H&H and called it good. Of course I could also do a lot with the 30-30 in a M64 or perhaps the 6.5x55 or the 7x57 in a trim little rifle with 23-24" barrels. However, the flexability of the bullet range in .30 cal leads me back to the 300 H&H.

Larry Gibson

I guess I'd have a 30-03.

(and/or any number of others that would work as well)

I like the 06 size case, very useful base for other carts. I only have a 06 in a Garand, never warmed to the round for hunting. I prefer the 280 or 338-06, both of which I have. The 280 can be had in a lighter rifle w/ less recoil. The 338-06, same wt rifle as an 06 w/ just a bit more gas for heavier game. It's great to have choices, few countries do.

quote:

If we didn't have the 30-06 I'd just use my 7X57.

Or .375H&H!

The cartridge world would look a bit different with no .30-06 and its offspring. It certainly cemented the .308 bore size in the U.S. Would the .308 have come to be had we not had so many years of .30-06? (I do know we had the .30-40 Krag but not for very long.)

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
+2 for the 7x57

+3

Wait, i don't really own a hutning '06...just a Garand. Maybe my vote doesn't count?

I only have two at the present. CRF of course.

Rich
DRSS

If it were not for the venerable M1 and BAR . I'm afraid Ole Doc would never have owned any 30-06's

as I NEVER have owned a bolt rifle in that caliber !

Odd Man out syndrome I suppose . Other calibers were some how more interesting too me !.

Doc: Used to be that way for me as well. Everyone else was shooting one, so I went for the 270. Now, older, wiser, I have 4 or 5, in all different configuerations. Yeah I have an M1, and a couple Springfields, and a hunter built on a Mauser. The more matches I shoot with the old Springfields, the more I like the 06. Also, with 180 Nosler Partitions, they are deadly on elk.

Jerry

30-06 is "God's Caliber" for sure. But, just for the record, it's pretty much derived from German 8mm Mauser.

I have 5 30-06's (2 are AI) and I love em! As much as I shoot other calibers, especially 308 the 30-06 is my go to..... I would be crushed if it were not around!

I don't have a 30-06 as the France factor is why. But I manage quite well with my 8x60S which is IMHO actually a better balanced cartridge that the 30-06.

For sure Gods work, if not for the 06' would there even be a french speaking france

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Randell:
30-06 is "God's Caliber" for sure. But, just for the record, it's pretty much derived from German 8mm Mauser.

Just think if the USA had addopted the 276 Pederson for the M1 Garand, instead of the 30/06...

Yeah, but they didn't. Sane heads prevailed!
Jerry

A) We would all be shooting the 7x57 and speaking German
B) This thread would read "What would we do without the 45-70
C) We would be downloading the 300 Win Mag
D) we would be shooting the 30 Newton instead of the 300 Win Mag
E) We would be shooting the 30-350 Rem Mag
F) we would be all buying and talking about the 300 RCM with pissing threads between the 300WSM and 300 SAUM
G) There would be a factory 30 2.25"
H) There would be no 284 Win and variants
I) The 35 Rem and 300 Savage would be more popular
J) No 06 variants and O'Connor and Keith would be friends
K) The 8x68 would be common
I can go on and on

I managed just fine without a 3006 for a bunch of years. My 270 took care of all business. But, I love my 30.06 and it's been on many hunts and I've taken a lot of game with it from CO to Alberta, BC, NB, Alabama, SC and MO.

quote:

30-06 what would do without it.

For one thing.....a helluvalotta Americans would have to go to the gun shops to get a rifle......as that's all many of them have!

The best thing about the old American copy of the superb German 8x57J is that it spawned the superb .270Win. and the "perfect" .280Rem.

I have five highend and very accurate rifles now in the .30-06, have had at least ten others and shot two deer with it. The other rounds I mention suit me FAR better for MY uses and, if I want something with more zap, I have lots of .338s, 9.3s and .375s.

After decades of loading and shooting them all, my favourite .308 bored cartridge is the wonderful .30 Super of Messers. Holland and Holland and it's modded version, the excellent .308Norma.

quote:

I managed just fine without a 3006 for a bunch of years. My 270 took care of all business.

Yea, but the .270 Win came from the 30.06. No 30.06, no .270 Win.

It has served the hunting fraternity well and long. With the cartridge diversity of today life would continue without it or any other cartridge for that matter.
JMHO but the 30-06 certainly had great design features. When someone sought to improve it their thinking was slightly askewed.
In truth it will be a bench mark standard
for many years to come. roger

If there was no 30-06 would there be a 308Cal? Would we have a gap between 284 and 323? It would probably mean that the 7mm and 8mm rounds would have a hell of a lot better bullet selection. If this were the case I might even own a 7mm or 8mm but since there is such a wide variety of 308 bullets, who needs anything else?

quote:

Yea,
but the .270 Win came from the 30.06. No 30.06, no .270 Win.

Does everyone forget the 2nd .30 U.S., ??

aka the 30-03--

WHICH lead in 1905 to the Otto Bock 9.3 X 62--

So yes Virginia, there would have been (at some point) the ,270, .280, or at least the 6.8 x 63(or 4) and the 7 x 64 etc etc,

ad infinitum.

Truth is every military and government was watching every other military and/or governments developments--

Which is why the.473 base sprang into the numerous off spring that it did--

someone was "bound to" do a .30==

Paul Mauser said go forth and multiply and it did --
or somthin' akin to that

I haven't had a 30-06 for 30 years and couldn't be happier - in fact, I have done just fine without any 30 cal rifles. Too many other interesting choices. Rifle cartridges are like ice cream and the 06 is vanilla - it's good but there are flavors I like better.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Yea,
but the .270 Win came from the 30.06. No 30.06, no .270 Win.

Does everyone forget the 2nd .30 U.S., ??

aka the 30-03--

WHICH lead in 1905 to the Otto Bock 9.3 X 62--

So yes Virginia, there would have been (at some point) the ,270, .280, or at least the 6.8 x 63(or 4) and the 7 x 64 etc etc,

ad infinitum.

Truth is every military and government was watching every other military and/or governments developments--

Which is why the.473 base sprang into the numerous off spring that it did--

someone was "bound to" do a .30==

Paul Mauser said go forth and multiply and it did --
or somthin' akin to that

No, the American extension of the German smallbore rifle cartridges did NOT ...lead to the... 9.3x62 developed deliberately for "Patterne 98" Mauser actions by commercial gunmaker Otto Bock. This was a DIFFERENT round and has more in common with the original 6.5x55 round for the Scanahoovians, the similarity is mere happenstance and not an evolution in design parameters.

The Americans copied German and British rifles and cartridges, NOT the other way around, until the great American gun genius, inheritor of the mantle of the immortal John Browning, Charles Newton came along and developed his .30 Newton, still the best overall .308 bore ever designed.

Dewey ,

My "gist" was ---

that since the success of the 1888 8X57 Muser rimless (.473),

worldwide the military (and non- military) development of that size and style was at a fevered pitch.

The 6.5 WAS another variation on the SAME theme-
(.476 vs .473--)

Ultimately,
ALL of these cartridges are irrevocably TIED to the rapid pace of the 1880's through WW I

governmentally based advancement of the ballistic small arms capabilities---

AND Paul Mauser.



Bock designed the cartridge to FIT in a '98

style action--

as were--ALMOST ALL the "new" designs of that time period.

Basically "Everyones similar design" was an extension on this "idea".

OR--did the year 1903 not come before 1905 -

and is 63 not longer than 55 ???



On to Newton

as much as I am a ardent Newton supporter,

(great ideas man) it truly appears Charles

really took his cartridge from some European

design ideas while traveling in Europe before

WW I.

Newton probably WAS influenced by the much more advanced European cartridge designs of the period as most Americans and many Canadians were still lever action users. I do not know for sure and I doubt anyone really does.

I mentioned that Bock designed his round for the Mauser 98 and, IMO, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that HE was influenced by the ".30-03" as I understood you to say. I think that if it were possible to discuss this with Bock, he would point out that his design used the unaltered 98 magazine to it's ultimate potential and this was deliberate so that your basic squarehead colonist could have a really GOOD rifle for general use in "Darkest A".

I have an Oberndorf commercial Type B in 9.3x62, an rifle from Africa and in very nice shape. I also have extensive working experience living alone in BC's mountains where Grizzlies are numerous and often aggressive...and this rifle with my handloads is probably the "best" rig for this, just as it was among those big tawny "purrboxes" of Tanganikya, long ago.

So, I see what you are saying and agree with the exception that I doubt that Bock knew of the ".30-03" when he commenced work on his cartridge....but, WTF. we will never really know as all the records were lost in WWII bombing, or, so I am told.

I still am not a huge .30-06 fan and never will be, but, I certainly recognize it's capabilities and am just glad that Win./Rem. developed the .270/.280 from it...so, I do not have to pay nearly $2.50 per casing for 7x64 Euro. ammo. I KNOW that both Rem. and Fed. offered it, but, have never seen it here in Canada.