carmichael? Yes indeed, he fits right in the group.

I remember a few years ago reading a story he had written where he was on a Hunt(?) with david miller, Kurt Kelso and the actual "Mexican Hunters" riding around in a Jeep or some such vehicle.

As the story went, the Eagle Eyed Mexicans(as Kurt refers to them, not carmichael) spotted a Deer bedded down about 400yds off, and had them stop. miller and Kurt get out and looked it over, deciding it wasn't big enough for miller. And apparently miller and Kurt figured it would be perfect for carmichael.

So, they send word back to the vehicle for carmichael to "hurry forward" for the shot.

At that point carmichael said words to the effect, "I was working the bolt and dry-firing to feel the trigger as I was running up to where they stood. I'd never fired this rifle, so I ...."
---

I stopped reading at that point. Realized I really had no interest at all in a person who claims to have such vast knowledge concerning firearms, but was more than willing to take a shot at an un-wounded, bedded Deer, 400yds away and HAS NEVER FIRED THE RIFLE BEFORE.

Yes indeed, carmichael fits right in with this bunch.

You are consistent in both your refusal to reply to simple questions concerning your actual experience and in you being the instigator of the name-calling. On the one, single post where you spoke to me courteously, I replied to you in like manner, but, you simply cannot contnue to behave politely. You started calling people "Pilgrims, braggarts, blowhards" and so forth, yet, you accuse others of misbehaviour, cussing and whatever???? AS AD said, you tell yourself lies, pal, you need to get your head straight, then, people would not cuss at you.....but, that's what you want, ain't it?

Woods, very simply put, B.C., Canada and ALL of our resources belong to CANADIANS, full stop. It is up to us IF we want to have foreigners here, period. The attitude that anyone else, Texan or Martian,has any right to hunt, fish, ski or whatever here that you display toward me is the single greatest reason why non-resident hunting is becoming less acceptable to an increasing number of Canadians. If, you want to hunt Stone's Sheep here, for example, maybe you should think about this, because we don't give a shit if you like our attitude toward OUR country!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Bottom line boys, I've taken it pretty good on this thread and it was about time I said something. Its pretty easy to spout off self rightous bull shit when your character isn't being attacked. Especially comming from, as always, "experts" hiding behind a handled mask.

AZ, if this wasn't a personal attack, I apologize.

quote:

As for posting groups, hey, I should post the group I shot sitting with a tight sling - 3/8 of an inch at 200 yards - or the 2 1/4 inch 4 shot grop I fired from 700 yards shooting sitting with a bipod. Does it prove Rem 700s are the most accurate? No way. It doesn't prove dick squat.

Chuck

No, Chuck, it wasn't. Do you really think I can shoot 3/8 of an inch groups all day long at 200 yards shooting sitting with a sling? Of course not. But I did once. Single groups don't mean anything, was my point.

Perhaps I poorly communicated my point or perhaps you misunderstood it. No problem.

And while I don't use my real name, you have apparently figured out who I am.

kutenay

Well, I don't think I feel the same way

You'd be welcome should you wish to hunt here, welcome to it
You're welcome to use the drugs we spend billions developing in the US
You're welcome to have the security that our military provides by spending billions on armament
Your're welcome to all the science we in the US have spent billions developing
You're welcome to use this very internet media that the US companies spent billions developing
You're welcome to use all the bullets, cases, and primers that the US companies supply

I harbor no ill will against Canada, but if Canada has problems with me, I'll have to do without Canada. The question is, how will I tell the difference?


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

[QUOTE] I stopped reading at that point. Realized I really had no interest at all in a person who claims to have such vast knowledge concerning firearms, but was more than willing to take a shot at an un-wounded, bedded Deer, 400yds away and HAS NEVER FIRED THE RIFLE BEFORE.
[/QUOTE

Hot Core, your just throwing a tantrum cause he took the shot successfully, the rifle was CRF, and from a maker that produces CRF rifles of a known quantity.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
OK, this is your answer, sonny, and get it into your thick skull. THIS IS CANADA and you are NOT a Canadian, so, you have absolutely zero rights here in respect of carrying a firearm or hunting, period.

We have a policy of record and report in B.C. and B.C.W.F. members patrol hunting areas in conjunction with our Conservation Officers; if and when a violation is seen or suspected, action is taken and confiscation of firearms, cancellation of licenses and even criminal charges can and do follow. So, if I or another retired member of our resource management agencies were to lodge a formal complaint, you can bet your ass that it would be dealt with, tout suite!

So, I have a number of friends in both resource management agencies and in the media and I have the family background and credibilty, as well as the support of many B.C. hunters, to very probably see to it that a formal complaint about a foreign hunter's behaviour got his license denied. I don't want your kind here, it's MY Province and if you consider that arrogant, too fuckin' bad, stay home. Capeche?

You can laugh all you want to, but, the BC Hunting Regs. and the BCWF policies are what form my ethics, so, these ARE what will determine whether you qualify to hunt here or not.

OK, fair enough. I have no problem with enforcing LAWS.

My question still is... what "violation" are you going to lodge against me? I shoot too far? I don't hunt the way YOU like?

Start dreaming up some creative "charges", because you will never find me breaking an actual game LAW, but I may very well choose to hunt in a style that is contrary to YOUR "beliefs".

I'd love to see you testifying in court some time....

Jim in Idaho,

That is funneeeee! You gotta love it! I do think there is a lot of entertainment value on these pages, regardless of anything else.

Actually, I have testified in court quite often and with considerable success; in one instance, the presiding Judge, upon my being sworn, stated, "ah, from a fine old B.C. family", when he heard my surname.

The problem here is that you just don't get it and, it seems, neither does Woods. You try to equate me and BC'ers like me with some illiterate hicks in Texas, is this an attempt to induce us to want you to hunt in B.C.? The facts are that the culture is different here, land tenure and traditions concerning public access are vastly different and, quite frankly, those of us whose families built this Province understand our system and how to get what we want accomplished. To instigate a problem for a non-resident alien hunter is easy and popular opinion would be and is strongly in support of this; getting a license pulled or denied is very simple, believe me, it is.

Woods, anything that I or any other Canadian obtains from the USA is PAID FOR, and your bullshit about defense is flatly ridiculous.

Science, medicine...???? Insulin, for example???

Same old b.s. though, we are so kind to you no-account Canucks and y'all jes doan appreciate it....what crap!

BTW, did my Merkel, my Brnos, my Mannlicher-Schoenauer come from the USA...or the ammo for them??? Most of the guns being sold here now are NOT made in the USA and the ammo is going more and more European, as well. So, maybe your attempt to patronize and mock me is as foolish as all of your posts have been thus far, AGAIN, this is NOT your country and we can and will do as we see fit in OUR country.

Also, why would I ever want to hunt in the USA, no offense intended, but, I can hunt in B.C., the Yukon, Alberta and the MacKenzie Mountains without a guide....you think I want to come an hunt in Texas?????!!!

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:

To instigate a problem for a non-resident alien hunter is easy and popular opinion would be and is strongly in support of this; getting a license pulled or denied is very simple, believe me, it is.

Therein lies the problem. That statement is ethically and morally bankrupt, to infer that you would create a problem for someone because you could and because you wanted to.



I take back all my welcomes.

quote:

BTW, did my Merkel, my Brnos, my Mannlicher-Schoenauer come from the USA...or the ammo for them??? Most of the guns being sold here now are NOT made in the USA and the ammo is going more and more European, as well.

Didn't hear about anything made in Canada.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Hey HC

This kutenay baiting is fun!

Can I join your club?


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Baiting me is fun, in your dull mind, but, what you don't seem able to grasp is that what this does is to harden my attitudes concerning this topic and I have been both very active and successful in conservation activities for many years. In short, I have the contacts and the media skills to see to it that the current opposition to non-resident hunters is greatly increased in short order, so, the net result of your foolish behaviour is to antagonize the very people whose support you need, in order to be one of those ...cream of the crop...hunters...this is as stupid as your usage of ..infer.. in your assinine rant concerning morals.

It is my sworn DUTY to do what my conscience indicates is best with respect to the protection of B.C. from nefarious foreign influences; if this requires using intuitive methods to bring about the refusal to grant an hunting licence to someone such as you, I deem this both morally correct and quite within my responsibilty as a B.C. native. What you think is not a concern as you do not belong here and your attitude is both unacceptable and self-limiting.

First of all, I would like to apologize to all for hijacking this thread. kutenay's hatred and narrow mindedness just got my blood to boiling and I had to respond.

I do think I am over it now, since I just had to laugh at his last post. I promise I will quit now that he is fully out of his shell and his opinions and attitudes are exposed to the light of day.

kutenay

I really have no intention of hunting in BC, so your threats have no meaning to me. But, I'm sure that if I wanted to spend the money and go hunt in your petty fiefdom, I would be readily accepted and treated well by the many fine Canadians up there (yourself not included).

I think you have gotten lost in your small and inbred world not unlike this little fellow here







Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Kutenay,

I have enjoyed your posts for the last couple of years here, and at 24hour. I enjoy your comments about the 338, as I have 2 on Model 70's myself.

But quite frankly you seem to have allowed someone to push your button.

Take a deep breath, maybe go for a walk, try some of that laced asprin you folks sell. But PLEASE don't try and tell us Americans that your little 2 bit, socialist, "French influenced" country even begins to mean squat to us.

You guys would crawl on your hands and knees for green American dollars...

Woods, I must say that your obvious anal obsession is quite self-revealing...............

Wow,

Did I post that? Somebody must have pushed one of my buttons...

My little, etc...........????? Are you referring to the nation north of you that is quite a lot larger than the USA, has never had a major civil war, has the most stable government of any major country on Earth and has hunting that you drool over???? Socialist????? Well, at least WE don't have Ted Kennedy!!!!!!!

Now that I must agree with.

Ted Kennedy is a major embarrassment to this little nation to the south of you.

I would buy him a ticket if he would leave.

The question is which would be more effect in getting him out of this country, "Push-Feed", or "Controlled Round Feed".

Well, we had Trudeau, so, we can't boast either!!! BOTH nations now have some of the most useless scumsucker politicians in our intertwined history, Washington, Jefferson, MacDonald or Laurier would have puked at the very thought of some of the Schumers, Rocks, etc. that now infest our democracies!!!

CRF or PF....how about a Bazooka!!!

All very interesting stuff...

So... which is more 'accurate' - PF, or CRF?

I'll back up just a bit and state that I was talking in absolute terms and this is more about hunting style rifles or so it seems. In that regard I agree that there is little difference when the guns are set up right. But for the record, I would rather see the percentage of first seconds and third places taken by what rifle type over the last ten years than more anecdotal stuff about some probably otherwise decent guy who happens to know the great Allen Day.

Why the discussion has devolved into Remington vs Pre-64 escapes me though. Just habit, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Hey HC

This kutenay baiting is fun!

Can I join your club? ...

Sure, the more you, Cold Bore, me or anyone else gets him to post, the funnier and more outrageous his responses get. Only problem is that each time I get to a certain point in viewing his posts, I actually begin to feel sorry for him. It seems quite obvious that he has chosen to "create a mythical personality" rather than be happy about being a Frenchee.

Of course, I have to be real careful about what I post, or he might have me arrested!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
...

If there is anyone out there with any "credability" that could tell me by looking at the picture of the Leeper how can you tell this rusting blue and termite food rifle was a current production M70 as opposed to a (rag) Pre-64 M70, I'd appreciate it.

I don't believe the barrel or stock came on it, and after seeing chucky's responses, it is obvious that he isn't able to answer any questions without crawling through the gutter - exactly like his two heros. And of course his credability mirrors theirs.

The 1st giveaway would be the bolt handle is on the wrong side. Pre-64's were all right handed rifles.

Terry

Hey Terry, Thanks, I was unaware of that.

HC, If I'm not mistaken, Chuck's rifle has a synthetic stock (Chuck correct me if I'm wrong please). It is just painted brown. Not that this has any bearing on the M70 Classic vs. Pre-64 issue...
- mike

Hey Mike, I didn't know that either. Seems out of place that chucky would have enough sense to get a synthetic stock, but I'll take your word for it.

Lools like Bill Leeper did a fine job(from what little I can see) on the stock too.

For a guy who runs his mouth like you do HC, you sure don't know very much, but, it is an improvement over your usual bombastic bs to see you admit it.

In reference to Allen Day, I don't know the gentleman personally, have never spoken to him and wouldn't recognise him on the street or at a range. However, I wonder why a few posters (im?) frequently slag him on this board, could it be jealousy of his hunting experience, fine guns or just his obvious wealth? The comments about Allen, Jim Carmichael whom I also don't know and Chuck, who is a friend of mine and a helluva good young guy strike me as being derived from small minds with little or no real hunting opportunity or experience.

Maybe it's time to get back to PF vs CRF and HC can tell us how many Jarrett rifles he owns, what where and when he has hunted big game with them and thereby demonstrate his credibility. I would not mock anyone's spelling errors, as he does, if my posts contained as many of them as his do......"credibility?"

I don't begrudge anyone their success or good luck. It just becomes annoying to me when an individual can not reference any aspect of a particular subject without dealing in superlatives. It seems they need a pinnacle of acheivement for reference regardless of whether the topic requires one or not.

I know I'm snob and an SOB but unless Jim Beam smacked me recently I try not to inflict the fact on others.

On the topic of ultimate (i.e. BR) accuracy from CRF, perhaps a BR point of view might be of interest?? I realize, this is not what the original quetion turned out to be about. But the way the question was originally posed, and taken at face value, the discussion for a while led us in this direction. So, this is what the BR guys think:

M70/M98 thread on benchrest.com

- mike

I might be a lot of things, but one thing I refuse to do is hide behind some phony internet name and hand out insults to people I don't know. I am who I say I am, I live where I say I live, and I don't have anything to hide.

Triggertate, I didn't do anything to you during the course of this discussion, other than perhaps disagree with you, and I surely didn't know that I'd end up ruffling your ploomage so badly going in. You asked for a more contemporary example of a competitive shooter who uses Model 70 actions, and I gave you one. Dissatisfied with that, you want more definitive numbers. I don't have any of those to give you, but for some reason you decide to take a backhanded slap at me anyway, and I think for some rather transparent reasons.

And Hot Core, for a guy who ducks all questions about your actual hunting experience -- and you've been asked plenty of times -- you hand out some truly asinine insults. Your put-downs about Jim Carmichel demonstate how intellectually challenged you really are. They aren't funny, they aren't perceptive, and they aren't even close to the truth, but they are surely pathetic.............

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
And Hot Core, for a guy who ducks all questions about your actual hunting experience -- and you've been asked plenty of times ... Your put-downs about Jim Carmichel demonstate how intellectually challenged you really are. ...

I believe you and I went through this same thing about "Hunting Experience" twice in the past. And I know for sure I did with kute. I've no desire at all to list my Hunting Experience once again - for the third time since it doesn't sink in for you two. Besides, it always looks like some form of serious BRAGGING and you should know by now how much I detest that.

The BIG problem for you all is I can see in your posts just how foney you really are. Most folks that have any Field Experience at all realize it as well and simply laugh behind your back, but I prefer to do it to your face.

It has been too long for me to remember, but it may have been you who provided the "link" to the story about carmichael. I read it on the net after you had been BRAGGING AGAIN about knowing carmichael. No, come to think of it, I believe Kurt Kelso provided the link at HuntAmerica in that thread. It is where he and I were talking about his "Eagle Eyed Mexican Spotters"(aka the real Hunters) Maybe chucky does know about the story since he "claimed" carmichael made the kill. However, I don't remember chucky being around at that time, so I suspect he is just following in your Blowhard Steps and simply claiming knowledge about a story he never read.

quote:

...hide behind some phony internet name ...

Actually there is an absolutely excellent reason for my doing this, and if I explained it, you would understand. Of course I'd much rather it be a constant Thorn under your Saddle.

Just consider it "Nunya"!

It's funny I'd know about the rifle used, and the ending to an article I've never read. It's also funny you haven't got an absolute clue regarding the most obvious features of that rifle I posted pictures of. One you so freely let everyone know about. It's also funny that you publicly talk about how awful Bill Leeper is at putting rifles togethor.

You're chasing your tail my friend, and looking more foolish all the time.

Chuck

I didn't use a backhand at all. Rather a fast ball. I hope the reasons are transparent; that's how men argue. Please continue.

And it s TIGGER, damnit, not Trigger, Alan.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
It is my sworn DUTY to do what my conscience indicates is best with respect to the protection of B.C. from nefarious foreign influences; if this requires using intuitive methods to bring about the refusal to grant an hunting licence to someone such as you, I deem this both morally correct and quite within my responsibilty as a B.C. native. What you think is not a concern as you do not belong here and your attitude is both unacceptable and self-limiting.

Uh, OK, I guess. I do believe this attitude has been tried before in the past, by governments and individuals, and failed. Good luck!

And, I think kennedy tried CRF (of the alcohol) but had an ejector failure that cost MJK her life. There appears to be a "god" complex on the east coast, also.

HotCore, I must have missed your report on your hunting experience because all I can remember you ever saying is that you had participated in culling Whitetail Deer on plantations. Perhaps you are the most experienced hunter and outdoors worker here and your wilderness experience is vastly greater than mine; if, so, why not put this issue to rest by accurately listing your accomplishments, this seems fair to me.

I have made some harsh remarks as a result of your self-admitted baiting of me and I now propose a solution to this imbroglio; you tell us what your real wilderness, hunting, professional forestry/biological background is and, if you do this honestly, I will openly apologize....fair enough??? One thing that I want to know is, since you mocked my longtime choice of a working rifle while in Grizzly country, how many Grizzlies have YOU dealt with and where and when was this????

I do not consider it bragging when a person lists his actual experience(s) when offering an opinion concerning appropriate rifles for a certain use, in fact, I prefer to know exactly what a guy bases his opinions on. I think that, as I have said, the nasty comments about a number of people, not just Allen, Chuck and I, that you have made here for months are based on nothing other than jealousy, a neurotic need for attention and the typical wannabe loser's attitude toward those who actually do what they talk about.

Now, HC, I will post my name here and mention that I now live in Vancouver, B.C., if you will 'fess up and tell us the straight skinny. I do not have the equipment to post copies of letters of recommendation from BCFS and AFS officials here in order to verify my bushwork history, but, I will mail them to you....IF, you take the high road and tell us your story.

So, a polite, non-aggressive challenge, what's it gonna be??????

8mm and Jbabcock, be advised that my comments are not intended to apply to you guys or anyone except those whose lack of respect for my rights in MY country precipitated them. I have very few issues with anyone on this board and am generally very pro-American, so don't get your bowels in an uproar.

Plus, the anti-non-resident movement IS growing here and it will be up to men like me, who are not that numerous, if it succeeds or fails. Most BC residents are not hunters and are not in favour of "trophy hunting" of any type, so, any remark that antagonizes those few of us who are active in lobbying the government re: hunting policies is pretty self-defeating if you ever want to hunt here.

Kutenay,

I have have no issues with you and I'm confident I'd get along fine with you around a campfire. I've read most of your posts and have a fairly good idea of what kind of guy you are.

The issues you are having in Canada are happening here as well. I've seen Seattle become the hang-out of fairies and tree huggers of the worst kind. Sad really, it once was a nice place to live.

As to push feed or controlled round feed, I'll take a Model 70 pre-64 , a new Classic, or an FN 98, and smile smuggly, even if whoevers 700 Remington is more accurate...

Kutenay, I watched the I-5 corridor and the west side become something I didn't recognize, and the east side, and Idaho, and much of Montana. You have a great land worth being concerned over, and face much the same trials I think. Exposure to brainless idiots will cause funny things to happen and be said. Good luck, keep the faith!!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
... It's also funny that you publicly talk about how awful Bill Leeper is at putting rifles togethor....

Anyone got a clue as to what chucky is talking about?

If ANYONE can find a post of mine that is "negative" toward Bill Leeper or his abilities, please highlight it and I'll be glad tocorrect it. I've always admired Bill's abilities as well as his stories, so (as usual) chucky's post seems to be at odds with reality.

If it can't be found(which it won't since it doesn't exist), let it be known for all time that chucky's character reflects on him as a Lier.
---

Just re-read the thread and see nothing negative concerning Bill Leeper from anyone.

Also noticed it appears that ad, chucky and frenchee kute offered nothing of help toward "Iron Buck's" original question, nor his second question. ad did offer some 50 year old data concerning M70s, but I really don't see how that applies to the question, "Which is more accurate, CRF or PF?", in todays world.

For those of you who still believe that a CRF is "more accurate" today than a PF, I'll suggest you can go back to my original post on this thread, do the things I suggested to Iron Buck and see for yourself. None of those suggestions require any input from anyone in this thread, so it will not be skewed by my beliefs or the beliefs of the other folks.

That said, a "current production" CRF M70 built in S&S (so it isn't a Safe Queen), would do well for my hunting about 85% of the time. For the other 15%, I've simply got more confidence in what I've chosen as my regular firearms.

I base my dislike of the (rag) Pre-64 M70s on two things:
1. The experience I had with the ones I owned.
2. The well documented "impurities in the receiver steel" that they never recalled.

And for my last post in this thread, I really dislike blowhards, braggarts, liers and people with a complete lack of character.

Well, my initial posts certainly offered my thoughts on what I thought would be a good idea with respect to the question posed, but, since HotCore chose to begin slagging me, among others and not for the first time, I decided to poke a little fun and ask him an honest question.

It seems as though HC has been spending quite some time looking in the mirror and he suffers form an acute form of self-hatred as witness his comments about blowhards, liars and so on. Too bad, HC can be a nice guy when hhe wants to, hopefully he will calm down and return to our friendly debates in a happier and less abusive frame of mind.

I do notice that, although I offered an olive branch, he chooses to ignore my questions and this does make me question his credibilty, but, what the hell, this is all in fun, anyway. With that, I will also say that calling Chuck a "lier" is pretty low and it shows a lack of character, IMHO. That's it for me on this, slagging is only fun for a little while.