Hot Core, you've ignored most of my post, and I assure you, I own hunting CRF HUNTING RIFLES that'll do better than five shots in the .400s, and I mentioned a few of them. But back to the one you chose to focus your attention on, those groups in the .400s are with an 8.5 lb. hunting-weight rifle with a 2.5-8X scope, firing premium-bullet hunting loads, specifically 250 gr. Nosler Partitions.

You make me laugh, because if that level of accuracy isn't good enough for you given the intended purpose of the rifle, you've got field mouse hunting confused with big game hunting. But basically you are inviting me to take a simon-pure hunting rifle firing hunting bullets into competition against a target-weight paper-punching rifle firing target bullets, and then bet money on it. Quite honestly, I don't think you're playing with a full deck, and I also think you're in denial. I'll also bet you've spent a whole lot more time hunting paper than you have big game animals.

I don't need to journey to ol' Kain-tuck to find TARGET rifles that'll shoot better than that .338 of mine does that produces groups in the .400s. We have over 1,000 members at our rifle club, competitive events in every discipline and facilities to handle same, and plenty of great riflemen. I've seen just about everything go through the system and get fired at all ranges over the last 26 years. All of this target shooting stuff isn't lost on me.

But let's compare apples to apples, not target rifles to hunting rifles. I'm a rifleman and hunter to works with hunting rifles only. Personally, I'm thankful for the contributions target shooters have made to the riflemaking community and to guys like me. Fundamental accuracy mechanics and the art and science of precision reloading simply wouldn't be where it is without the target shooting disciplines.

But I also think that target shooting isn't the whole world, and I can't tell you how many rifles I've seen that were built only for accuracy -- and a lot of guys don't know how to evaluate a rifle any other way -- which were abysmal failures when it comes to feeding, ammunition logistics, balance, handling, portability, and practical optics than lend themselves to rapid, efficient use in the field.

But we live in sort of a funny age where paper is the only thing that bleeds, and one-hole groups are the only thing that counts. Every rifle is supposed to be some benchrest/varmint rifle -- even those intended for big game.

Weird............

AD

Hot Core, that rifle and those bullets will be used to Hunt Alberta Whitetails, Mule Deer, Pronghorn, Elk, Sheep, Moose, Black Bear, Grizzly, and hopefully it won't be confined to this Province or Country.

Come on up with your rig. Just don't expect to have your sorry ass plopped on a high stand overlooking some feeder in preperation of shooting plantation, jack rabbit size, whitetails.

Where will you be staying, and when will you arrive?

Chuck

Allen beat me to it.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
And this one was shot with my .50 sidelock Hawken muzzleloader at 100 yards using Maxiballs.
I'm sure any CRF bolt-action shoots better than this!

El Deguello wins the the best group picture contest! I need to get my M/L out and practice more.

Terry

Would a muzzleloader be considered a push-feed or the ultimate CRF?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
When it is all said and done. Which platform is the most accurate way to go?

Hey Iron Buck, Some of the posts in this thread are "accurate" for a specific time period - long, long ago. But, some of the information you are receiving doesn't really answer your question for "2005".

Typically anyone spotting a Pilgrim toting a Pre-64 M70 to a Benchrest Match today is hoping for two things:

1. The Pilgrim has brought lots and lots of dollars with him.
2. The Pilgrim really believes it is the most accurate rifle on the Range.
---

All you will get in this thread is arguing and foolishness. If you want the real answer, attend some Matches and see for yourself what is being used. There is plenty of time to visit with the folks between relays and you will quickly see a trend.

Subscribe to one of the BenchRest Rags and see what folks are using.

Then visit on the phone with folks like Dave Tooley, John Lewis and Kenny Jarrett for a few minutes. Ask them which actions they prefer to use for the very best chance of achieving top accuracy and reliability. The answer becomes real clear, very quickly this way too.

And if you are serious about accuracy, it will be difficult to find a GunSmith to provide what you want better than any of those three.

Well Iron Buck, My prediction was, "All you will get in this thread is arguing and foolishness."

Totally forgot to add that once the Pilgrims with their (rag) Pre-64 M70s built around rusting-blue metal and termite-food stocks realize the correct answer for a really accurate rifle has entered the frey that they would revert to their normal strengths - name calling.

I see one braggart gets all his vast knowledge and expertiece based on One Rifle. Sure impresses me!

Now this is a TRUE PF,you start the bullet down the barrel and Push like h--.

For ultimate accuracy, in todays Benchrest events, custom single shot pushfeed actions such as Hall, BAT, Stoole, Niska, coupled with a very heavy barrel, and a real ugly stock are what is winning routinely in benchrest matches.

These rifles are very accurate ( usually for 1000 rounds or so), very heavy and very impractical in the hunting fields. I see only two real applications for these rifles when hunting, praire dog towns and tree stands or fixed blinds where you aren't planning on moving and get set up to stay in one place for the day.

I will chime in with my definition of a all day .5 MOA rifle ( which won't win any benchrest matches by the way). It takes most of an afternoon to accomplish. Start with 100 rounds and five four bull targets. Shoot top left corner, adjust 5 clicks ( depending on the scope) to the right and shoot, five clicks down and shoot, five clicks left and shoot, five clicks up to the original and fire. Repeat 4 more times, for a total of 5 rounds in each target. At this stage you have competed one complete five round group. Now repeat this sequence 4 more times, then sum and get your aggregate MOA number.

Most rifles won't shoot consistant .5 MOA when tested to the above, its a very rare rifle and scope combo that gets through the above to be an ALL DAY .5 MOA rifle. It my opion that most shooters have never owned one of these rifles, in my almost forty years of shooting I can recall quickly the rifles that meet the above on the fingers of one hand. It took me years to get a rifle in my rack that cut that grade, although me actively funding the project had something to do with that timeline, and my goal was smaller than .5 MOA.

In practical game fields this level of repeatability and accuracy is unneccesary. Most hunters fire less than three shoots at game, and the lethal zone on game is 8" on deer sized game ( larger on Elk). Most hunting rifles are 1 MOA or better rigs when judged against the above.

I am in Allen Days camp on liking CRF rifles to hunt with. My default choices are Model 70 Winchesters and Mauser 98's, all my hunting riles have that feature. I have both a Model 70 and Mauser that are very accurate. Only one of these rifles have I ever bothered running 1 series of the above test on, and that is because it is a long range rig in my mind. No it isn't a consistnat .5 MOA, it runs around .75 MOA, but will shoot a three shot string better than that.

Comparing hunting rifles and benchrest rifles is a lot like comparing luxury sedans and pickup trucks. Yes the both have four wheels and move in forward and reverse, but they were designed for different purposes.

A quality constructed Mauser or Model 70 can be very accurate rifles. Are they the best choice for the benchrest mini arms race, frankly no, there are beter options if your going to fund one of these projects. But in the game fields a 1/2 MOA difference is a irrelevant number, it just doesn't matter. Things to be concerned with in a big game rifle are ease of carry, how well the stock fits, durability, reliability in adverse conditions. And how well your rifle performs in inclimate weather. Your a lot better of worrying about your scope fogging, and your trigger not freezing up in minus 0 weather, and the balance of your rifle so you can shot offhand quickly than chasing a fraction of an MOA.

In summary a very general answer to a very general question. Yes push feeds are more accurate when built to the extreme. But CRF rifles can be built to be very accurate and are more than up to the accuracy requirement of any hunting rifle.

quote:

I see one braggart gets all his vast knowledge and expertiece based on One Rifle. Sure impresses me!

Wrong again.

Chuck

I have asked this question before, but, I have never received a reply, which does not surprise me. I think that what one intends to do with a given rifle is the best criterion for determining it's design features, ie. CRF, large mag. cap. for a DGR, a Stolle, etc. action for a BRR and so forth.

However, Hotcore frequently derides those among us whose opinions differ from his and even once informed me that he had shot a vastly larger amount of game than I have, this turned out to be culling plantation Whitetail Deer. So, HotCore, may I enquire as to where and when and with what results you have hunted in real wilderness country, shot Elk, Moose and especially Grizzlies????? My opinion is that you do not have ANY real bush experience and have never even seen any of the foregoing animals, especially Grizzlies.

You choose to slag Allen Day, who has hunted in most parts of the World and although he may have had a guide, he did, in fact, shoot his own game. Yet, you do not inform us of your undoubtledly superior experience which compells you to make ugly remarks, something that I doubt you would do in person. So, enlighten we poor "Pilgrims" as to how you exceed all of us in REAL bush-hunting experience....IF, you have any, which I doubt.

I never expected to see so many responses to my question. From what I have read I guess I guess it is safe to assume that either action type could be used to generate a 1/2" MOA hunting rifle. Which is what I am looking for. I am a Left handed shooter and have been leaning towards a Remington 700 action because mine have been more accurate than my LH M70s......and they are about 1/2 lb lighter. I am looking at a lighter weight rifle not a fly weightrifle. It would be for mountain hunting where you hike & climb a lot more than you shoot. I have been applying for bighorn sheep in Colorado for several years & may actually draw a tag sometime soon. I am planning on a 270 winchester with synthetic stock. I have not yet decided on the barrel.

Am I correct in assuming that tuning a more simple action like the 700 is more staight forward & easier to achieve 1/2" MOA accuracy than an action like the mauser & M70? And that the lock time advantage that the 700 has over the other 2 action types is a benefit to long range hunting accuracy?

I currently have a Winchest LH M70 in 30-06 with the BOSS that shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA pretty routinely. But I HATE the noise that the BOSS generates. The rifle is also a bit heavy (stainless & wood) to tote up above 11,000+ feet all day. If I go the Rem 700 route, it will be on an older, pre "J" lock action. I have a 1/2 MOA Rem 700 LH 22-250 synthetic with the "j" lock. It shoots several factory rounds to 1/2" MOA. But the location of the "J" lock device is such that I jamb my thumb into it when taking off the LH safety.

Whichever action, it will be a hunting rifle. With a 2.5-8x Leupold VX-III scope.

I have spent my entire life in the mountains of western Canada and have toted all kinds of rifles for both work and play for more than 40 yrs. I strongly prefer CRF rifles IN THIS REGION AND CLIMATE BECAUSE OF GROWING GRIZZLY PROBLEMS, but, I would certainly use a Rem. 700 for general purpose, big game hunting. As it is, I have Husqvarna 4100 and Brno 21H custom rifles that offer better workmanship, crf AND equal or lesser weight than a 700, of which I have shot quite a few.

Hunting accuracy can be, on the average, more easily obtained, in a custom rifle, by a good smith tuning a 700 and it will probably cost a bit less, as well. I would go 700 action, Gentry or NewUltraLight bolt locking safety, shilen trigger, good synthetic stock, good barrel, Talley lites and your Leupy....and this will do what you desire, period.

I agree on the weight issue with Mod. 70s, I use mine when I think that a .375 or .338 is required, but, I am always trying to cut both rifle and pack weight. If, you use a good smith, you should end up with a good rifle and that is what counts.

quote:

I strongly prefer CRF rifles IN THIS REGION AND CLIMATE BECAUSE OF GROWING GRIZZLY PROBLEMS

A real valid reason for your preference in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
I never expected to see so many responses to my question. From what I have read I guess I guess it is safe to assume that either action type could be used to generate a 1/2" MOA hunting rifle.

Yes indeed and much cheaper with a Push Feed.

quote:

Am I correct in assuming that tuning a more simple action like the 700 is more staight forward & easier to achieve 1/2" MOA accuracy than an action like the mauser & M70? And that the lock time advantage that the 700 has over the other 2 action types is a benefit to long range hunting accuracy?

Rather than "simple" it would be more appropriate to refer to the Remington as "extremely well designed for accuracy". As you can see in the thread and even with your own rifle the M70s are capable of some decent groups, but of course that was not your original question.

And yes, having the "fastest lock time" of any rifle on the market is indeed an advantage for any shot and especially a long range shot. You have less "time" for the normal movements we make due to heartbeat, breathing, lack of concentration, wind, etc. to effect(move) the rifle once you decide to complete the shot.

quote:

I currently have a Winchest LH M70 in 30-06 with the BOSS that shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA pretty routinely. But I HATE the noise that the BOSS generates. The rifle is also a bit heavy (stainless & wood) to tote up above 11,000+ feet all day.

You have a couple of nice options available to you here. First off, they now have a BOSS without the holes. You can get one of them, screw it on to the same setting and it is generally right on with the BOSS that has the holes in it. You do not get the recoil reduction, but you also do not get the HUGE Muzzle Blast associated with the Brake. So, you can use the one with the holes to work up Loads and practice with and then switch over to the one without the holes for actual hunting.

Concerning the weight, you also have an excellent option for your M70 by contacting www.riflesinc.com and letting them reduce the weight on it. I've not had one done by him, but a few people I know have one of his lightened and tuned rifles and they are very happy with them. Also never seen anyone speak bad of his work on the net.

So, if you like the way your M70 operates, you can have everything you want by just doing those two things.

You could also just swap the M70 on a Remington. However, you may not get one that shoots as well as your current M70. Or, you could get one that shoots so well that you are reluctant to mention the groups because the Pilgrims have no choice but to disbelieve a regular old factory rifle could possibly be that accurate.

quote:

Whichever action, it will be a hunting rifle. With a 2.5-8x Leupold VX-III scope.

For most hunting, the accuracy you are getting with the M70 is more than adequate. And that is a nice scope for toting around the hills. But, for me it needs a bit more power.

Just had a visit from a RMEF Regional Manager over the weekend and of course we talked rifles. He has that exact same scope that you have on his Elk rifle(a S&S 338WinMag M700) and has killed Elk with it. We have had some lengthy discussions concerning his scope choice and he informed me he has sent a 3.5-10x Vari-X III back to have a HEAVY Duplex installed in it to put on the rifle.
---

So, if you like your M70, and it is shooting exceptionally well for a factory M70, then you can have everything you want with it. Or, you could take a chance on a Remington and have a fine rifle too.

I'd think you are in a very fortunate position.

Well, just as I thought, more cut and paste and a recommendation of a 'smith whose rifles he has NOT owned and used, if in fact HotCore has ever seen or hunted Elk, let alone shot one. I think that this is the sort of thing that anyone who reads gunmags can come up with, just self-aggrandizing bullshit. Hotcore is a poser, whose snotty remarks about others are motivated by jealousy of that which he has not, cannot and will never acomplish himself.

So, I would consider his advice on rifles for any purpose to be without value and his sneers at Chuck to be the whining of a wannabe. I think that Chuck, as young as he is, has far more BIG game hunting experience and has shot far more trophy class Elk, etc. than loudmouth HC has or ever will.

By the way Iron Buck, I see one of the "Legend in his Own Mind" experts has joined the thread. He has great credentials for hunting Elk (if you choose to believe anything he says).

One of his most memorable feats is to have figured out a Slob Elk Hunter had wounded an Elk and not followed it up by locating a beer can and a couple of spent cartridges somewhere within a few miles of a dead Elk. Yes indeed, that beer can and cases was able to tell him EVERYTHING he needed to know.

Just spotted another beer can last week about a mile from where I am, so I might be close to a dead Elk right now - according to the self-proclaimed expert.
---

As I told you in the beginning, you would get a whole lot of foolishness in this thread. The Pilgrims just can't help themselves.

Best of luck with your M70 if you choose to keep it.

Hot Core, you must spend a lot of time looking in the mirror and lying to yourself.

AD

If, as I do you shoot off the bonnet of a car from a set of (well fitted) bags at a cardboard box sporting a sticky orange bull 100paces away - then trigger pull, weight, stock fit and recoil are going to matter so much more.

Same old crap, eh, you STILL will not tell us what your actual BIG GAME experience is, will you. It seems to be o.k. in your mind to slag me, other members of this forum and former, now retired, employees of the B.C. Forest Service and Fish & Wildlife Branch. In my many years of work for both the BCFS and the Alberta Forest Service, I assisted with quite a number of investigations of various breachs of the relevant legislation, yet, you try to disparage this by your stupid remarks. This demonstrates that you are a poser and a liar,but, I think that this is obvious to everyone here.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
...I assisted with quite a number of investigations of various breachs of the relevant legislation, ...

Ah yes, good old BSer kute (Beercan Seer) now bragging about being the World's Best Beercan Sleuth. No doubt about it, I know I'm THOROUGHLY IMPRESSED!
---

And now for your reading pleasure ladies and gentlemen, a new World Record. ad managed to make a post without BRAGGING on himself or his firearms. Simply AMAZING!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Hot Core, that rifle and those bullets will be used to Hunt Alberta Whitetails, Mule Deer, Pronghorn, Elk, Sheep, Moose, Black Bear, Grizzly, and hopefully it won't be confined to this Province or Country....

Hey Chuck, I was out doing some work on the property today and got to thinking about that "rifle" picture you posted. I seem to remember you mentioning in another post that Bill Leeper did the work on it.

Totally serious questions:

Is there any single portion of the (rag) Pre-64 M70 left that he did not change, alter, re-align, file, polish, straighten, re-cut, weld or modify from the original (rag) condition?

Do you have any kind of protective finish on the rusting blue steel?

Do you still refer to it as a (rag) Pre-64 M70 or as a Leeper?

Didn't realize it was a Pre-64 model 70.

Chuck

Why don't you reply to my questions, HC, too busy trying to dream up more stupid comments? BTW, Chuck's rifle is built on a Mod. 70 "Classic" action in the lefthand version; I would have thought an expert of your stature would have seen that..........

Where, when, what???? Elk? Moose? Grizzlies?????

C'mon, motormouth, tell us just how much hunting and bush experience you have....NOT!

kutenay-

Since you are so intent on calling people out, how about if YOU answer the question that I posted a week ago in Big Game...

Your post:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by kutenay:
All I can say is that if I knew his identity, I would contact officials in the B.C. Gov't. to ensure that he can never obtain a 'non-resident alien" hunting licence here, this would protect B.C. from his type of "hunter".

My response:

quote:

HUH???

You would make sure that he never got a license? Based on WHAT??

I've hunted a lot of places. Never once was I asked when buying a license "How far do you intend to shoot?", or "How will you be hunting?", or "Do you pass our 'ethics' test?"

It's good to know that guys like you are out there to "protect B.C. from his type of "hunter"." A regular one-man crusade to save the world...

There's been a lot of stupid things said in arguments on this board, but this has got to be one of the better lines I've heard. And one of the most arrogant.

I'm still curious as to exactly how you are going to keep me or anybody else from hunting BC based on YOUR ethics call??? Care to respond?

Well, it's HotCore's alter ego with his usual bullshit. OK, this is your answer, sonny, and get it into your thick skull. THIS IS CANADA and you are NOT a Canadian, so, you have absolutely zero rights here in respect of carrying a firearm or hunting, period.

Forty years ago, almost to the day, I swore my oath to the Crown and was inducted into the BCFS and, although I am now retired, that oath is still in force as far as I am concerned. I also worked for the federal Canadian police force, as a civilian as well as the Coast Guard and the Alberta Forest Service. I have spent many years actively involved in wilderness and wildlife conservation and have been an elected official of the B.C. Wildlife Federation.

We have a policy of record and report in B.C. and B.C.W.F. members patrol hunting areas in conjunction with our Conservation Officers; if and when a violation is seen or suspected, action is taken and confiscation of firearms, cancellation of licenses and even criminal charges can and do follow. So, if I or another retired member of our resource management agencies were to lodge a formal complaint, you can bet your ass that it would be dealt with, tout suite!

Now, you need to realize that there is a rapidly growing shift in popular opinion in B.C. concerning foreign hunters like you, and the media find this an interesting source of frequent stories. NO government official concerned with wildlife and foreign use thereof in B.C. will buck the media,so, a quiet tip and, bingo, a huge media brou ha ha.....equals a rapid change in what said official will do.

So, I have a number of friends in both resource management agencies and in the media and I have the family background and credibilty, as well as the support of many B.C. hunters, to very probably see to it that a formal complaint about a foreign hunter's behaviour got his license denied. I don't want your kind here, it's MY Province and if you consider that arrogant, too fuckin' bad, stay home. Capeche?

You can laugh all you want to, but, the BC Hunting Regs. and the BCWF policies are what form my ethics, so, these ARE what will determine whether you qualify to hunt here or not. You may be filthy rich, but, our wildlife ain't for sale and attitudes like yours is the major reason why. This should answer your question and demonstrate your own arrogance in presuming to think that you have some right to a B.C. license.

Whew, man!!!!

Have you ever had to execute any "non-resident" offenders on the spot, Kutenay?


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

This has to do with the frequent nasty comments about me and my friends that HC and CB have instigated on this and several other threads. It is unfortunate that such situations happen, but, I did not start it, nor will I back down.

It seems to me that anyone who presumes to mock another's career, homeland, ethics and integrity, without EVER posting their own experiences deserves any harsh language that they get, in short, ya play with the bull, ya get the horn.......

As to "execution" of poachers, etc., well, I thought that Judge Roy Bean was down in your neck of the woods..........

Even though he derides those of us who post on sites such as AR, I have a lot of respect for Jim Carmichel. He is the only writer that I am aware of that has a broad level of experience in the hunting fields as well as competitive shooting. Unlike guys like Boddington, he seems to truly enjoy varmint hunting and varmint rifles.

He has often gone on record as saying push feeds such as the Rem 700 AND the pre-64 Mod 70 are inherently more accurate than CRFs.

At the end of the day, I don't really think it matters how much of what you have shot. The facts are, for pure accuracy, PFs pretty much rule the roost. You can pooh-pooh that all you want with respect to how much you or anyone else has bagged, but it doesn't change anything. I have shot a handful of elk, but to say you need a tackdriver doesn't pass the laugh test.

Are CRFs the greatest hunting action? I suppose one could make that argument. Are they the most accurate? Most serious target shooters don't appear to use them.

As for posting groups, hey, I should post the group I shot sitting with a tight sling - 3/8 of an inch at 200 yards - or the 2 1/4 inch 4 shot grop I fired from 700 yards shooting sitting with a bipod. Does it prove Rem 700s are the most accurate? No way. It doesn't prove dick squat.

Well, since Chuck was unable to answer any of the questions, I guess I'll have to. Had no idea at all Chuck would use anything other than a (rag) Pre-64 M70, but if we are to believe his hero kute (pronounced cutie) it is a current production M70. Must admit that is a much MUCH better choice than the occasionally exploding (rag) Pre-64 M70s that have the "impurities in the steel" which were never recalled.

quote:

Is there any single portion of the (rag) Pre-64 M70 left that he did not change, alter, re-align, file, polish, straighten, re-cut, weld or modify from the original (rag) condition?

No.

Which then brings up the question as to, "What good was it to start with?" And I'll just go on and answer it since Chuck really has problems with questions concerning his own firearms. Answer - Not much!

quote:

Do you have any kind of protective finish on the rusting blue steel?

Just a guess on my part, but probably not. Biggest problem is if the "old man" ever gets to shoot against Chuck, that rust might even make it worthless as a tomato stake. And of course, no need for termites in the garden.

quote:

Do you still refer to it as a (rag) Pre-64 M70 or as a Leeper?

Since Chuck has not mentioned it as being a total and complete re-work by Bill Leeper, I'll just guess he simply has no concept of giving credit where credit is due. Pitiful!
---

Hey Cold Bore, It is rather fun to bait kute in. You even managed to get him to his strongest ability - cussing in public. I suspect Chuck's hero was really in the "French Military".

And what happened to the blowhard braggart? Did he get hurt "patting himself on the back" in another thread?

AZ, I know Jim Carmichel very well, have visited his home, hunted with him, etc. I think Jim has won more championships in various shooting disciplines -- benchrest to scattergun -- than anyone I know of, and he has the trophies to prove it. He won a national benchrest championship just a couple of years ago. And of course, he's been a pioneer and is up on all the lastest actions, stocks, and every other aspect of what constitutes an accurate rifle that can compete in today's world.

He's also hunted far, far more than many people realize, and is probably, amoung the gunwriters, second only to Craig Boddington in terms of world-wide hunting experience. And he's hunted places even Craig hasn't gotten into, and currently couldn't in today's world.

For all of his sophistication in accuracy mechanics, for most of his career Jim's hunted big game with custom rifles based on Mauser 98 and pre-64 Model 70 actions, and his main battery has been written up on Outdoor Life many times. This same expert, championship caliber marksman who understands that a refined push-feed action is the best platform upon which to base a benchrest or varmint rifle also knows that a CRF action offers many solid advantages for a hunting rifle. It doesn't have to be all in one school or all in another school, nor should it be. And if a CF action didn't provide enough accuracy to satisfy any big game hunting requirement, Jim wouldn't use them, pure and simple.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:

You can laugh all you want to, but, the BC Hunting Regs. and the BCWF policies are what form my ethics, so, these ARE what will determine whether you qualify to hunt here or not. You may be filthy rich, but, our wildlife ain't for sale and attitudes like yours is the major reason why. This should answer your question and demonstrate your own arrogance in presuming to think that you have some right to a B.C. license.

kutenay

I hunt out of state and if there is one trend I have noticed is that the locals are usually the offenders. As the saying goes "They love to see your money but hate to see your license plate".

I can remember being in camp after shooting a nice bull in Colorado and having a local drive up in a beat up old car, drunk as a skunk, and started bragging about how they get their meat in the dead of the winter well after the season is over. He then proceeded to proudly show me his Elk gun, a 30 caliber semi automatic carbine.

Now, I'm not saying that all locals are game thiefs and law breakers, far from it. But I am saying that the hunters out for a weekend of beer drinking and hunting with inadequate guns are much more likely to be employees of the local sawmill. The "filthy rich" hunters who have planned and paid for a trip to your country are usually the cream of the crop and adequately armed and sober.

We have the same problem here with locals in east Texas who night hunt and kill far more than their share and in South Texas where the local land owners hunt on our leases during the off season. The common thread seems to be that they think

quote:

our wildlife

is theirs to harvest and no one else has a right to it.

Since HC & CB pulled you out of your shell, I find that I have a problem with your attitude regarding other hunters who may come to your back yard to hunt.

quote:

He has often gone on record as saying push feeds such as the Rem 700 AND the pre-64 Mod 70 are inherently more accurate than CRFs.


www.theoutdoorwriter.com

AZ

I have a pre-64 Mod 70 and it is a CRF.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Nice post Allen. I use CRFs too; my .416 is a Mod 70 and it is pretty damn accurate. And I love a Mauser too.

Woods: sorry, I meant post-64 to pre-early 90s.

HC, you ignorant son of a bitch. How you can give advice on firearms you can't even identify is beyond my comprehension. Also, if you can pretend to answer your own questions regarding my rifle, why are you asking, and this entire thread is based on the custom rifle platform. Don't pretend to question my loyalties eigther, I have sent to many people to Bill, who have called or emailed, concerning riflework to be told I don't give credit where it is due.

AZ, if you think only bragging about your groups somehow puts you above those that posted pictures of them, think again. Instead of comparing yourself, constantly, to Craig Boddington, try Steve Timm. He's more your speed.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
HC, you ignorant son of a bitch. How you can give advice on firearms you can't even identify is beyond my comprehension. Also, if you can pretend to answer your own questions regarding my rifle, why are you asking, and this entire thread is based on the custom rifle platform. Don't pretend to question my loyalties eigther, I have sent to many people to Bill, who have called or emailed, concerning riflework to be told I don't give credit where it is due.

AZ, if you think only bragging about your groups somehow puts you above those that posted pictures of them, think again. Instead of comparing yourself, constantly, to Craig Boddington, try Steve Timm. He's more your speed.

Chuck

Umm, yea, Steve Timm is more my speed. Never said I was close to Boddington. How did you get that idea?

Apparently Chuck, I rubbed you raw somehow. I don't veiw these forums as a place to attack people. Shoot at my ideas, my logic, even challenge my groups as bullshit, laugh at some of my preposterous postings, but spare the personal attacks please. I don't do it to you and I would expect the same courtesy.

Good post AZ! For the life of me, I don't understand why this has to degenerate into a personal mud-slinging contest?? Heck, the original question sounded pretty innocent - but not on this forum! Is it a question of religious beliefs vs. open minds - one sometimes wonders? Depending on how you define "accuracy" (i.e. in which context - hunting or BR), maybe the answer to the original question is going to be different. But rather than have an interesting discussion about a subject we all enjoy, we end up beating each other over the heads and calling each other names.
- mike

It's been going on a long time around here. After all, how can you raise your own self worth without belittling somebody else?

Terry

Bottom line boys, I've taken it pretty good on this thread and it was about time I said something. Its pretty easy to spout off self rightous bull shit when your character isn't being attacked. Especially comming from, as always, "experts" hiding behind a handled mask.

AZ, if this wasn't a personal attack, I apologize.

quote:

As for posting groups, hey, I should post the group I shot sitting with a tight sling - 3/8 of an inch at 200 yards - or the 2 1/4 inch 4 shot grop I fired from 700 yards shooting sitting with a bipod. Does it prove Rem 700s are the most accurate? No way. It doesn't prove dick squat.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
It's been going on a long time around here. After all, how can you raise your own self worth without belittling somebody else?

Terry

It's just a matter of different customs in different places.

Whole world:
Greeting:"Hello, how are you? Lovely day today,isn't it?"
Response:"I'm fine, thank you! Yes, it is a lovely day."

AR:
Greeting:"Hello, how are you? Lovely day today,isn't it?"
Response:"F--- you, A--hole!"

Nothing personal, just the way things are done around here.

BTW, that comment was not addressed to or at any particular individual. It just seems that this place has way more than it's share of pissing contests, simple expressions of opinions seem to generate more negative emotional responses than I've found on other sites.

Oh, and before I forget, that really is the required response to a greeting on the Political forum!

Hey Chuck, Name calling and cursing are as always your main strengths. Obviously you are much better at that than selecting a firearm.
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Yes indeed, it does seem these threads tend to bring out the worst in some folks. Sure glad " I'm " not in on it.