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| One of Us |
does higher velocity kill better, and does it justify the longer barrels and significantly heavier recoil? lets take a look at the .300 Weatherby. loaded with 180gr bullets its 19% faster than a .30-06, and 25% faster than the .308 all of these cartridges has lazer-flat trajectories for all types of Scandinavian hunting. and lets assume we use bullets designed for the different velocities generated by these cartridges. we're talking reasonable well placed shots and the animals are shot at the same range i mean, how much can a 20% increase in velocity really make a difference. to me it sound like it should be barely noticeable. so...have any of you experiented with std vs magnum cartridges in such a scale that you could draw conclusions? (i'm not looking to start a war, just eager to learn if magnums holds anything for me). | ||
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I believe if all the projectiles from a 308, 30-06 and 300 Wea all penetrated the same distance. The higher velocity rounds would yield a faster kill. There are 4 ways you can dissipate the energy of a projectile as would pertain to an animal. 1) Fracture; Bone contact or Bullet failure 2) Friction / Heat; Air 3) Elastic deformation; Hydrostatic shock 4) Plastic deformation; Tearing of Flesh or Bullet Mushroom If the penetration of all the bullets is the same you will see greater Hydrostic shock from the Hi Vel and and probaly a larger would channel (plastic deformation). Dead is Dead! Shot placement and a good bullet. Let me also say that in medium sized game up to Elk; I do not recognize a wound channel in the game I have shot with my standby 340 Weatherby using 250 gr Nosler Part. There are not heart and lungs! They are all soup @2900fps | |||
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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yes. i too believe increased velocity (same caliber, same bullet, same point of impact on animal) results in a quicker kill. however, i don't care for the recoil of the mags anymore, so i'll just stick with a 30-06 and a 270 win. they continue to kill just fine when i do my part. | |||
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Just my opinion Steffen so take it with a grain of salt (or bag). The killing power is only going to be a factor at ranges where the energy of the projectile is marginal. For example at 4-500 yards the -06 might not penetrate to the vitals where the Weatherby/RUM, etc would still have enough velocity to do the job. The biggest advantage of the faster cartridges is the flatter trajectory, as you stated in your post making range estimation less of a concern. At 450 yards, my -06 drops 35 inches where my RUM drops only 12 inches. But this velocity spoils a lot more meat at closer ranges. Just to add to the confusion, I once watched my brother shoot a deer 5 times with his 243 winchester with seemingly no effect until the deer dropped after running about 100 yards. When we dressed it, the entire insides were like thin soup. The deer was dead on his feet but never felt those high velocity hits to his heart lung area. On the other hand, I have seen deer shot with slower cartidges in seemingly non-vital areas that just keeled over and died on the spot. So my opinion to your question is that velocity doesn't have a direct relationship on "killing power", it only gets your bullet there quicker.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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i like to equate it to tearing off a bandaid. if you don't know it's coming a fast tearof doesn't even register. but a slow one sure gets your attentioon. the longer a bullet is inside causing damage the better,and as long as there are 2 holes i think you have enough energy and penetration. i don't like the energy dump theory at all, but the bullet has to open and exit. velocity ain't the issue [in my opinion] placement and performance[bullet] is. | |||
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IMO no it doesn't....well to a point! It only kills farther away.....and then only if the shooter can hit the mark at longer distances. There is no such thing as deader! Unless properly constructed bullets are used the faster rounds might actually be a detriment and for certain the heavier muzzle blast and recoil will cause many to exhibit decreased accuracy. If you can't do it with a .30-06 then it's extremely unlikely that you can do it with a .300 ultra-mag either! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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If you assume to use the same bullet, say a 180gr bullet, I think it would be a wash out to 250 or 300 yards. The magnums were originally created to deliver a greater weight of metal downrange without a loss of velocity (trajectory). The difference between say the 180gr bullet driven by the 30-06 and the 300winnie, is how far downrange the bullet would travel after it had passed thru the deer. What you gain is 30-06 performance at a greater distance with the 300Winnie. And even then, don't expect the pie-in-the-sky numbers you will hear some folks quote. | |||
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Get 50 yards closer with your 30 06, and you have more or less the same numbers than your weatherby or winch mag. | |||
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Assuming, let us say, two 30" cartridges and a strong rifle action. Cartridge "A" holds ten grains more powder than cartridge "B". Therefore "A" can do TWO things. Either fire the same weight bullet as "B" but at a higher velocity OR fire at the same velocity as "B" a bullet of heavier weight. Cartridge "A" gives the user two choices higher velocity or a heavier bullet. The major advantage of higher velocity is a flatter trajectory at longer range. Not greater killing power. Unless on a fiting range with distance markers as range gets longer the shooter becomes more likely to estimate it wrong. What is actually 400 yards is estimated at 325 yards or 450 yards. By making the curve less arched flatter trajectory means that that error has less effect as the rise or fall of the bullet above or below what the shooter thinks is 400 yards is small enough to still allow the bullet to hit with 2" of the aiming mark. If the shooter however only shoots from a tree stand at animals less than one hundred yards away that extra velocity of cartridge "A" is of no benefit to him. But the other benefit of cartridge "A" may be. The ability to fire at the same velocity as "B" a bullet of heavier weight than "B". So extra velocity is only of benefit at longer range because it flattens trajectory and so reduces the need to be exact in range estimation. At ranges of under 100 yards it offers not benefit. Long barrels always offer benefit in performance although this may be paid for in extra weight or extra overall length and "handling". The benefit of a long barrel rifle are extra velocity that either raises the velocity performance of cartridge "B" to equal to that of a short barrel rifle firing cartridge "A". But the converse is also true. That where a rifle of minimum weight and minimum barrel length is desired cartrdge "A" will allow this but still have the same velocity as a heavier longer barrel rifle firing cartrdge "B". At under 100 yards more benefit is probably achieved not by increasing muzzle velocity and bullet energy but by increasing muzzle diameter and bullet weight. | |||
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At close range the three mentioned have more than enough energy...however at farther ranges the faster 30 would be a more efficient killer. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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maybe in trajectory, but not in momentum or the extended range at which a good bullet will properly mushroom/perform. 30/06(180gn 2800mv) Vs (300weatherby 180gn 3200mv) The 300weatherby adds about 200yds in properly expanded bullet range/effectiveness. eg; what the 06 has at 400yd the .300weath has at 600yds.(roughly)..were talking normal spitzers here which loose about average 200fps/100yd. It will also depend on wHAT bullet you use. EG: A GsCustom .30cal 177gnHV has a .638bc and will still expand at 1600fps Another bullet may require min.2000fps for proper expansion & also have a much lower Bc. So if one wanted the best overall range versatility,effectiveness & efficiency from an 30/06, id choose the 177Hv over say a 180NP. The 177hv will deliver: at 550yd, what a 180np has at 400yd at 300yd, what a 180np has at 220yd ...so some may discover they dont need a .300magnum.  ... or if they do, then by using the HV bullet, they will retain more of all the speed&momentum they went to all the fuss to create with the magnum case. | |||
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I personally think most non premium bullets perform best with an MV of 2400 to 2500 fps, and will perform the best at impact velocities from 2200 down to 1400 to 1600 fps approximately... so the downside to most huntes, means you have to get closer to the game.. I also feel this is regardless of caliber... I really feel, even with all the high quality premium bullets on the market... anything that has to do with high velocity.. bullet metallurgy hasn't kept pace with velocity potential... but I don't feel the need to kill an aniaml at 500 yds to impress anyone... but if you feel the need for muscle, get a 338/378 WBY and you'll be all set...and you can eat right up to that bowling ball sized hole in the meat... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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As long as a bullet gets in and destroys enough of the right tissue. It will kill the animal If it dosen't destroy the proper kind or enough of it it well not. Or do so slowly. Fast bullet bullets kill, slow bullets kill as long as they meet the above. That is way a 22lf place into the brain of a 1100lb steer well drop him on the spot. But miss the brain or gut shoot him with it they can run around for a long time. | |||
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This is sooooo correct. I have missed the brain on big steers and had to run beside them pumping more bullets in their head before they hit the ground. Did you ever taste what adrenaline does to prime beef?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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sometimes it depends on, how good a shot you are. Would you rather have a 300 weatherby in the stomach, or a .308 winchester in the heart.? | |||
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Velocity alone, nope. It's about bullet construction & placement. Drive a RN solid @ 3000fps impact vel. & you'll see little unless bone is struck. Do the same w/ a controled expansion soft & things get interesting. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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The only 'actual' comparison I have seen is with a lowlier caliber - 22 centre-fire. hornet compared to 223 and 22-250. Same bullet, different velocity. A 223 firing a FMJ does the same damage as a hornet firing a soft nose bullet. The hornet bullet does the same damage at the same range as a 308Win - both firing soft nose bullets and at similar velocity (on turkey - on goat, the 308 does a bit more damage but not much). Another comparison I have witnessed is different bullet construction. 87gr Sierra 25's against 100gr Seirra 25's. The 87gr at slightly higher velocity shreads a goat while the 100gr behaves like a 308. But that same 100gr bullet shreads a turkey and at longer ranges, actually does more damage than a 22-250. Then I have shot game with a 150gr Hornady spire point soft from a 303 Brit and found it to be too fast at close range. But that bullet gave me a 200m Point Blank Range. So, my point is that different bullets at differenct speeds behave differently on different game. I do know I do not like recoil! Here's what happens when your bullet is too fast. This is the entry wound and it did not kill the deer - the deer alegedly staggered toward the shooter who killed it with a pistol.  Regards 303Guy | |||
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If the bullet doesn't disintegrate because the velocity has been increased too much, the higher velocity will generally kill better. If you double the weight of a bullet but keep the velocity the same, you double the energy. However, if you double the velocity you quadruple the energy. Of course, shooting the animal in thre right spot is really important, too. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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AAhhh!   You certainly have strange looking DEER down there.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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OK, you got me!  I always wondered what it was and thought it looked like an antelope but the magnets did not actually come together! This is a North American animal which I do not recognise. The pic came from another forum. So,... what is it? Regards 303Guy | |||
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I believe Steffen specified that each cartridge would use a 180 gr bullet designed for its' velocity parameters which is a lot different than the same bullet fired from each cartridge. That would mitigate the effects of velocity relative to the same bullet in each cartridge. In that case I would guess we all agree penetration would be superior in the faster cartridge because it would by definition above have a tougher bullet. But if each bullet were appropriately matched to it's respective muzzle velocity, they should all kill similarly. Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I believe speed kills. If you look at ballistic gel tests you'll quickly see that as the bullet slows down so does the "drama" to the wound channel. The channel is always biggest and most impressive as the bullet opens up and gets smaller like a tornado on it's side as the bullet slows down. AND if you think you need to cut a hole to create tissue damage take a look at the barnes video......I think it will play below. http://www.barnesbullets.com/i...on/high-speed-video/ Go to the bottom and click on the tsx video....that is cool. I cannot see how anyone could deny that "something shocking" is happening there! | |||
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True, but how much of that energy is being transfered to the game? At least the retained velocity will be higher and the bullet will penetrate better and because of its higher energy will have more energy to shed and because the energy is being carried by mass and not velocity, it will be able to deliver more of it further down the wound channel. Also, a higher mass bullet will diliver its energy more steadily, with less initial delivery and more sustained delivery. i.e. A longer but less dramatic wound channel. Regards 303Guy | |||
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303 - it's a pronghorn. | |||
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That shot did not kill the deer? Where are the organs in this type of deer? | |||
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I dont think comparing calibers is a fair way to judge this.JMO. I think comparing different bullet weights in a given caliber is a better comparison. For instance, a 25/06 100gr bullet at 2900fps or 3250fps. As long as the bullet stays together, absolutely kills quicker, it does more damage. I just cant compare standards to magnums with the same grain bullets! | |||
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moore - the bullet was too light and too fast - it "exploded" on impact and never penetrated to any organs. | |||
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With that picture of the goat you said that it (allegedly) staggered towards the shooter. I think that it is (allegedly) the entrance hole. What would you expect any bullet to do on a 30lb critter? | |||
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henry - they are a little more than 30 lbs. but the point is that they are successfully hunted all over the american west with the proper catrridge/bullet combination. | |||
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Maybe 30 pounds soaking wet. Looks like a fawn still on the tit, and I question that as the entrance wound, maybe a little cyberspace BS. | |||
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I don't believe for one moment that higher velocity kills faster than lower velocity. In fact, higher velocity causes bullets to expand faster, therefore penetrating less, a bullet is no good if it's velocity is so high that it does not penetrate to the vitals and blows up on the outside of the animal. Animals are killed by blood loss and destruction of the nervous system, if you hit an animal near to the nerves that control breathing and the heart, it will die quickly, same as if you hit the spine directly, but if hit through the lungs, it will still die, but will most likely go on a dead run. Both or all of these scenarios require bullets that penetrate, open to allow for large wound channels, and create great blood loss. Bullets need to be matched to the velocity that they IMPACT at, not the muzzle velocity, if it's too high, it will blow up, if it's too low it may not expand and won't cause enough destruction to allow enough blood loss, and the animal may recover with no ill effects. Cheers. 416RigbyHunter. | |||
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The gunmaker Charlie Sisk, in Rifle Magazine #241 and reprinted in #243, states "Maybe the magnum boys will want to hang me for this but I think there isn't any difference in performance between the .308 and the .300 Weatherby Magnum on big game out to 300 yards." He goes on to say the difference in bullet energy at 300 and 400 yards between a .308 shooting a 150 grain bullet at 2,900 fps and the .300 Ultra magnum shootinga 180 grain bullet at 3,200 fps is slightly more than what the little .222 Remington shooting a50 grain bullet develops at the muzzle. The article in #243 is titled "Big results from small cartridges". It's a good read. | |||
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Energy + sectional density is the Killer not velocity .A small projectile say 50 grains traveling at high velocity which doesn't expand upon impact does little damage compared too a 500 grain bullet . Take the American bison for example 700-3000 lb. worth of fairly tough hide and hair . Scores of K's were slaughtered with BP Rifles averaging 1200-1500 FPS carrying 365-510 grain lead bullets . Seems to have worked pretty fair as they were nearly wiped out !. IMO .  | |||
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It does look young. There was a lot of argument when that picture was posted with the poster being accused of BS'ing. In fact he was treated rather harshly and the thread was closed by the moderator. The original picture did not show the interior of the wound so I enhanced it a little and there you can see the bone structure intact. If you look closely you can see that the wound has the appearance of an impact crater. Then too, I know of an instance when this same thing happened with a 220 Swift on a Springbok (not the rugby team guys). The shot was placed on the shoulder of a quartering animal which ran off to be taken by another hunter. The wound had a gritty feel to it - bullet fragments. I have heard too, that bullets can 'explode' on an animals shoulder and cause a large surface wound which does not kill the critter straight away. I am quite confident that it is indeed an entrance wound and that the original poster was not BS'ing. I thought that the pic might of interest here since we are discussing bullet velocity and wound effects. By the way, an exit wound of that size would show all manner of bone fragments and other bits hanging out and one would be able to see the grass under the animal. Also, the forelegs would not be in place. Check the position of the wound - it's right behind the shoulder blade/leg bone junction. A lot of muscle there. Regards 303Guy | |||
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None of the energy is transfered to the game ever never. Energy does not transfer in a collison. The determining factors in Wound Trauma Incapacittation are, 1- the amount of direct applied force, 2- the amount of momentum transfered, 3- the amount of hydraulic pressure that is created (the higher the velocity the high the hydraulic pressure), 4- the shape and construction of the projectile.  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Aah... The Law of Conservation of Momentum! And I thought no-one would notice. Rats! Now we have to fix the 'energy of recoil' misunderstnading too! The rifle will have the same momentum as the bullet plus ejecta. The heavier the rifle the less the energy of recoil will be! (That's because momentum is the product of velocity and mass while energy is the product of half the square of the velocty and mass. So, if you double the weight of the rifle you will be halving the energy!) Ok, so that's fixed, but how does this same principle influence bullets striking a target? For example, a slow heavy bullet compared to a lighter and faster bullet of the same momentum striking a steel plate. The slow bullets makes a small dent while the faster bullet punches a neat little hole. But the heavy bullet knocks the plate over. The same applies to bullets with identical energies (at impact).  Regards 303Guy | |||
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22lr on a Coyote at 100yds. 40 gr lead bullet at 1200 fps muzzle vel.. Now same scenario..BUT we have a 22-250 shooting a 50 gr bullet @ 3800 fps muzzle vel.. Exact same poi dead center vitals. So hands up whats the result? I bet we all said the 22lr killed it better/faster (if at all) huh! Cuz it was going slower and stayed in the animal longer thereby creating allkinda internal havoc. PLEEZE! At velocities below the 3000 fps threshold there's not a lot of difference in shot reactions but try adding a 1000 fps to that (say 3700 fps vs 2700 fps) and guess what? You will see the bang flop phenomena pretty regular. This is of course expecting that such a cartridge would be pushing a bullet thats up to the task such as the Barnes or similar bullet. Other examples... Take the vaunted M1 Abrams tank.. you hit it with a WWII anti tank round and there will be no visible effect. Now smack that same tank with a 120mm APFSDS-T round and see what happens! It is completely and utterly, visibly, whacked silly. That is simply the velocity factor at work with a projectile that can properly project that velocity into extreme damage effect. Last but not least we have an Arrow shot into a milk jug at 20 yds..whoopee it zips thru the jug and milk leaks out. Now I take another jug exactly the same in all respects..except I hit that jug with a pill traveling over 3000fps...just another slow leak, huh!? If you can even find a few pieces of that jug your doing good. Don't discount velocity its really nasty when applied correctly. Speed kills LOL Theres velocity and then theres velocity. LOL | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475: None of the energy is transfered to the game ever never. Energy does not transfer in a collison.  I see the printed word but I really have a problem in the understanding. There is energy transfere in collision. After a collision doesn't the momentum and energy equaions have to concurr? What is the difference in the transfere of kenetic Energy and heat energy. The heat energy transfere creates a burn to tissue the kenetic, tissue disruption. Is the person who wrote that just minceing words and their definition?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Total energy always remains the same, but can be transformed into another form (kinetic, potential, thermal, gravitational, sound, light, elastic, and electromagnetic energy)...such forms of energy can be named after a related force. When a bullet strikes animal/meets increased resistance, it begins to loose/transform kinetic energy at a higher rate than if it had continued on without striking the animal. If the animal is not responsible for any of that energy loss/transfer/transformation from the moving projectile, then where/why does some (or all) of the bullets energy go on/after impact? | |||
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