quote:

Oh, you mean the fabled diff. in tuffness between NA & African game???....

Oh, no... I was refering to the toughness of deer or any other game animal. Even possum! Game animals have a very much stronger/more robust shoulder construction than humans do. North American bison have a very heavy shoulder/spine anatomy and know how to use it (against each other). I watched in amazement how a goat did a little full speed sprint up a long slope that I would have struggled just walking up! African antelope are tough too, as are most other wild animals in the world that have to survive any harsh conditions. Cape buffalo may a bit tougher than other large bovines due to predation by lions but I'm not so sure. I think their reputation comes more from the parasites that make them mean and cantankerous when they get old! Or something! I have walked amongst a heard of cape buff and they just watched me pass just like they did any other visitor to the park. No barriers between them and us. It's the old loners that are so dangerous! But I digress!

quote:

There will be very little if any tracking with heart and lungs and liver all turned into jello.

Until they try it again..

That was a revealing post. Plain, factual and very well stated!! Ummm ... just one thing ... There is nothing 'little' or humble about the 308 Win.

That was said with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek..
A firmly loaded 308 and a 150 grain premium bullet may well be my favorite combination of all.

Hey Trax, No thanks. I've provided the answer for you. If you choose to ignore it, I've nothing to gain by arguing with you.

Hey Trax, My last answer seems like a cop-out, so I've decided to give you "one" example about why Human Wound studies have ZERO to do with Game.

Find someone who has shot 10 Deer(100, 1000, 10,000) with a 308Win or a 30-06 using a conventional Standard Grade 150gr, 165gr or 180gr Bullet, where the Bullet entered behind a shoulder, totally destroyed the Heart and exited through the off-side shoulder. As them if ANY OF THE Deer ran 200yds, 100yds, 50yds, or 10yds after the shot.

Find someone (or in Human Wound Studies) that used the same combination of Cartridge and Bullet with similar placement, and see if even one person has been able to run anywhere after a similar shot.

That should make it easy for you(or anyone) to see that there is ZERO correlation between Human Wound Studies and Game Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

That should make it easy for you(or anyone) to see that there is ZERO correlation between Human Wound Studies and Game Kills.

Aah ,Ya, Ya, I think that's about right. Point well taken. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

That should make it easy for you(or anyone) to see that there is ZERO correlation between Human Wound Studies and Game Kills.

Yes.

I wild animal operates on poor instinct and glandular reponse after being struck. Many a deer have ran for miles on 3 legs and elk have ran 1/2 mile or more after taking 2-3 directly in the boiler room. Contrary to O'Conner's writing, elk are much more hardy than moose.

Humans undergoing gunshot impact and shock also includes severe emotional trauma upon the realisation of being shot! Many have been shot without knowledge and crash or fall apart after being told. Seeing the wound or spray is a different story.

quote:

and see if even one person has been able to run anywhere after a similar shot.

I know of and have seen a few game animals 'not go down' when they should have, I have seen small animals crawl away with a third of there body mass blown out. I have only known or heard of a few people who have been shot so was not able to comment but that is pretty much my understanding! But then again, the one guy I hunted with had been a war casualty who had taken three hits in the chest by an AK47. The first shot downed him and the 'other' guy stood over him and put two more shots into his chest. He described those as being like hammer blows. But he survived! So even charged with adrenalin in the battle field, he went down while a deer that is feeding, will run or stagger off with severe chest wounds.

It's all flesh and bone. Some of it dies quickly, some of it doesn't -- human, or deer, or whatever. No correlation? I think that is a stretch. Some deer have a tremendous will to live, others don't. Some humans have a tremendous will to live, others don't. You can't deal in generalizations in my opinion.

Humans can take a lot of hits and still continue to function as this clearly indicates.



The Aftermath
Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Soulis made a full recovery and returned to work less than a month later. He has since retired, and now works for a national railroad as its principle special agent for counterterrorism. He also serves as an adjunct instructor for KFD Training & Consultation and Policecombat.com, which provide cutting edge training for police officers in advanced close quarters combative tactics and officer survival skills.


The complete write up is here;

http://www.lawofficer.com/news...soulis_incident.html

I like my bullet to use all its power in the animal.
I shot a Zerba with my 300 RUM 200gr noslers. The bullet didn't come out the other side. I have the hide and the bullet.

I did notice years back, that bullets seemed to be recoverd against the hide after full penetration of the body. That being on larger game animals like Gnu. I don't know what calibers were being used but I recall the damage to periferal tissue was minimal. Possibly, these animals were heart shot - I don't remember.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I like my bullet to use all its power in the animal.
I shot a Zerba with my 300 RUM 200gr noslers. The bullet didn't come out the other side. I have the hide and the bullet.

X 2 roger

A bullet that uses its energy inside an animal and ends up against the hide on the other side is indeed probably ideal for broadside shots.
It is not ideal for angled shots , or bone shots, or as an aid in tracking if needed.

So often the reason though that they do not completely penetrate the off side has not so much to do with expending all its energy inside the animal as it has to do with losing too much weight on its passage.
That is not expending the energy, that is simply losing gas,, and mass.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
So often the reason though that they do not completely penetrate the off side has not so much to do with expending all its energy inside the animal as it has to do with losing too much weight on its passage.
.

The bullet arrives on the far side and because of its shape and velocity stretches the skin of a mule deer out about 12 to 14" and than slaps back. Angeling through a deer's shoulder it
will perhaps only stretch that skin about 4 inches. i have witnessed this visually. roger

quote:

stretches the skin of a mule deer out about 12 to 14" and than slaps back

Now that you mention it, there was bruizing under the skin and a smaller spot on the skin were the bullets had stopped. Now that I think about it, exit wounds often have that bruizing. I just never thought of the skin being stretched out like that!

quote:

I just never thought of the skin being stretched out like that! Roll Eyes

This has been documented many times.....it's why we so often find the bullet under the farside hide....it takes quite a bit of energy to break out.

My thought is that on some cartridges using midweight bullets that little bit of velocity advantage of say... a 7mmMag over a 280rem makes expansion of some bullets
(non tipped TSX) a more certain thing

Frankly I don't believe a 7mmMag kills any better than a 7mm-08/7x57, but it will do what they do 150+yds further out

To apply the same logic to 30cal and as I've probably said 100 times, if a 30-06 won't do it, you don't need a 300wizz bang, you need a 338/358/375

Velocity doesn't increase "killing power" it increases Range.

From the 30-30 to the 300sav, 308win, 30-06, 300winMag, 300UltraMag (or 300-338wby if that's your preference)
all you do is stretch range.


going from a 30-30 to a 300Ultra doesn't turn a 30cal into a grizzly gun much less an elephant killer.

If I have the coin to go looking for an alaskan brownie I would go even bigger, I'd borrow my brother's 416Rem.


AD

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
So often the reason though that they do not completely penetrate the off side has not so much to do with expending all its energy inside the animal as it has to do with losing too much weight on its passage.
.

The bullet arrives on the far side and because of its shape and velocity stretches the skin of a mule deer out about 12 to 14" and than slaps back. Angeling through a deer's shoulder it
will perhaps only stretch that skin about 4 inches. i have witnessed this visually. roger

Seriously bart what in the world does that have to do with what I wrote?
Shedding weight on its passage through an animal reduces a bullets penetration drastically.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bucko:

Seriously bart what in the world does that have to do with what I wrote
"So often the reason though that they do not completely penetrate the off sidehas not so much to dowith expending all its energy inside the the animal***"
""This is the part of your statement I take exception to.
Shedding weight on its passage through an animal reduces a bullets penetration drastically.

Since mass and velocity are the two properties that deteremine kenetic energy, when you loose or reduce either while passing through the body you are reduceing the residual kenetic energy.

What you are saying is not at all incorrect. If anything it is not all inclusive. If the bullet does remain in the animal's body all its energy was released on or in the animal.
So 100% of the time a bullet found, let say under the skin, does reflect the bullets complete energy exhaustion in passage.

Truthfully,bucko, I whish I had said nothing! This whole thread has little significance even to above average hunters and often the postings are miss leading. I guess my sentiments at present are WGABRA. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...The bullet arrives on the far side and because of its shape and velocity stretches the skin of a mule deer out about 12 to 14" and than slaps back. Angeling through a deer's shoulder it will perhaps only stretch that skin about 4 inches. i have witnessed this visually. roger

Hey Bartsche, That is an excellent description for the Deer I Killed with 44Mags and 240gr XTPs. Using that particular combination, I was not confident of "precise" longer range shots, so I tended to stick with a shot that went in behind one shoulder and out behind the other shoulder or into the off-side shoulder.

For those desiring to see a Deer knocked off it's hooves, the key is to place the shot as described above when the off-side hoof is in the process of taking a step forward.

By the way, it is easy to determine how much of the hide has been pulled loose on the off-side during the skinning.

When something bleeds enough, it dies.

Unless high velocity, flat trajectory, will combine to create more blood loss, then I will continue to believe that large holes through and through are a better solution.