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No, not really. It's about Einsteins's theory of relativity. E=mc² Waaayyy too complicated! But basically, matter (mass) is energy! P.S. When one speaks of heat energy in an animal from a bullet, one should also consider the actual temperature involved. Enough to actually do damage to flesh? Has anyone actually found traces of 'cooked' flesh in a shot animal? I know I haven't but that does not mean it doesn't happen - even on a micro scale. Heat is only kinetic energy that has been contained, that is, kinetic energy of vibration at a molecular level. Regards 303Guy | |||
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When I first took in the photo, I had to wonder what it was, It seems very much like it was still a suckler going by the way the mouth looks.  | |||
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No he is not mincing words. Duncan McPhearson Graduated MIT with Honors and has the only Ballistic Model that acctualy has been proven to be 100% correct in predicting the depth of penetration and the wound channel size. Mr. McPhearsons model was proven proven by Dr. Martin Fackler )President of The International Wound Ballisrics Assoc.) 1 Foot Pound of energy is equal to 1.355817948 Joules. Joules is a heat measurement http://www.unitconversion.org/...unds-conversion.html _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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To explain E=mc² in simple terms; If you had a train running on a track in an attempt to reach the speed of light, it would never make it, ... because the faster the train went the more heat/energy/matter would accumulate in the train due to increasing friction (heat like light, is matter)actually making the train heavier & heavier as it went faster and faster. The increasing temp/inertia/matter of the train, would diminish any increases in speed,and increasingly so, as you got closer and closer to the speed of light. ...in other words, the faster the train went/ the closer it got to the speed of light, the more it would slow down due to its increasing weight-due to its increasing temp. (due to increasing friction),... thus never reaching the speed of light. | |||
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very interesting. this is the kind of shooting i will be doing, i consider 250yds as an absolute maximum. wasn't Sisk the guy who made a 9.3mm magnum | |||
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I don't know if he had anything to do with the 9.3 Mag or not but his website has some pretty neat stuff. Sisk Guns To really understand the context in which he spoke, one has to read the article in Rifle Magazine. | |||
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I agree with 416RigbyHunter, I have shot many whitetails with 180g hrndy interlock @ 2600 fps out of my 06. Deer ranged from 100 to 350 lbs (big canadian deer). Now, my brother likes his 300 win mag but refuses to listen to me about bullet constuction, he choose to shoot 165g nosler balistic tips at @ 3100fps. Can you guess the outcome??? These bullets blow up on the outside of the animal (at distances 100yds and in) and if lucky some fragments make it into the vitals. Meat around the impact area size of a basketball is destroyed. When using these magnums you must use a quality bullet constructed for the velocity at those ranges. My 06 set up kills better than my brother's 300 win mag set up, and I don't need to track the deer, sometimes they'll take a couple of steps most times they just drop. Some of the Canadian deer my brother shot with his 300 win mag setup where tracked for miles with follow up shots needed for the kill, to me it's not ethical. My brother has conformed to my wisdom and doesn't use the 300 win mag on deer with that bullet any longer. I would say 95% of the deer I've harvested in my life are 70 yds and in. What advantage is 500 fps at these ranges? This year I didn't even use the 06, I used a 3030 with 150g hornady going 2250 fps and guess what 2 deer 2 shots neither one took a step,1 @ 65 yds the other @50 yds, so speed does not kill for me. This is just my opinion. | |||
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This thread is kind of silly. I've shot Deer with calibers from 270 up, to say a 308 kills as quick as a 300 WBY is just plain wrong. I'm the first one to say I probably use too big a gun in all situations, I like big bullets and large holes. I don't advicate small high speed magnums, but 300 mags kill Deer like lightning. My STW dropps them in their tracks, no tracking required. If we're talking Moose/Elk then big bullets at high speed.They may not be needed but certainly work good. | |||
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The military decades ago showed at Princeton University that tissue destruction and killing power of rifle bullets are directly proportional to kinetic energy, which increases as velocity increases. Bullet construction effects penetration, which becomes important when you're killing elephants, cape buffalo, and the like. But, killing North American game requires good shot placement into the boiler room with a decent bullet; and, there are many good bullet available. Take your pick. I like the ones that are accurate and have high balistic coeficients, such as Nosler BT and Accubonds. Actually the rate limiting step in getting a trophy is finding one, not killing it once you find it. | |||
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I guess the other maxim we should adhere to besides "Bullet placement is everything"! Would be choose/match the bullet to its intended use/target. Most if not all the horror stories we hear about can be traced to poor shooting, wrong bullets (for the game or impact velocity), and pushing a cartridge beyond its range or target aspect limitations. How many times have I heard fellas sing the praise of say Sierra boatails outa there 06. But another guy will chime in that they suck in his experience. Invariably that dude is rippin them out of a 300 loudenboomer at well over 3000 fps and any impact short of a couple of hundred yds is catastrophic for the bullets performance. But if its plunkin along at 2700 fps or so its happily within its capabilities and works pretty well. My rule of thumb is if I'm thinkin of pushin slugs out at over 2800 fps I want a premium slug of my choice I start at Nosler partitions and work up from there to say a Barnes TSX or equivalent. | |||
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No, it is just that the Technical Jargon is at odds with the colloquially accepted use of the same words. Yes, to the average person's way of thinking Energy is definitely transfered. Call it Force, Work, Pressure, whatever, it doesn't matter to the average person. The only way it is not transfered is in a "complete miss".  Without the Energy performing Work on the object, nothing would change in any way when being struck by a Bullet. Simply a word game with definitions. Similar to a "Trigger Breaking". If the Trigger does Break, then the firearm is inoperable. So, people could argue that everyone should say "Sear Shear Force"(5 times realllllly fast) or "Sear Release". I used to tease Dan on the Board about that who left over the Crat debates. ----- Concerning the point of the thread, You have received some excellent responses, some without merit, some very Technical, and some intended to confuse the issue. 1. Faster Kills better than Slower. 2. Bigger diameter Kills better than Smaller. 3. Bigger and Faster Kills the best of all. The above assumes a properly Designed Bullet is used for the expected Velocity at the Point-of-Impact. There is also a HUGE Balancing act in being able to shoot a more robust Cartridge as well as a person can a weenie Cartridge( Adequate vs. Inadequate ). Everyone has their limitations that I've ever met. As the Cartridges get larger(more available Energy just for Bartsche  ) they require more disipline, shooting skill and practice than the weenie Cartridges. The Recoil/Noise Tolerance level directly affects the Balancing Act and defines the Upper Limit that people are comfortable shooting. Same with the Overall Length and Weight of the Firearm.Good question. | |||
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As far as .308 power verses .300 Magnum power I can tell you this.....Last fall I went Elk hunting and I took my .308 Winchester with it's 20" barrel (and a .30-06 with a 22" barrel as a backup) and left my .300 Magnum home! Why?.....simple....because there's more to life than power! My .308 is short and quite light and a delight to carry and I appreciate that and place very high value in that! Further it shoots 180 grain accubonds with sufficient velocity to kill very large elk at surprising distances. Others might not appreciate it as much and place more emphasis in the .300 magnum.....and it's just fine with me if they do! Is there is a difference in killing power?....yes.....but only at distances farther than I care to shoot at trophy game animals! If I had to choose between a .30-30 and a .300 Magnum that too is an easy one.....the .30-30 will lose the decision quickly as I can actually handle a lot more power with very little loss of convenience of carry....(those M-94 lever guns are a delight to carry but my .308 is almost as light and quick to handle) There definitely are issues that take priority over velocity.....but only after adequate velocity has been achieved.....and the .308 (at least for me) achieves the requisite velocity! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I agree with Hot Core 100%. I have hunted many large animals for several years and I want a BIG-TOUGH-BULLET-GOING-FAST when I pull the trigger. I have used the following for many years, .300 Winny, .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, .358 STA, .416 Rem and Rigby. Animals from Brown Bear-Caribou-Elk-Kongonia-Bison-Cape Buffalo. Those experiences have taught me that placement-speed-toughness-bullet choice are all of utmost importance. My preference in bullets in order is North Fork-Barnes X-XLC-TSX-Nosler Partition-Swift A-Frame. Just my .02's worth. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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Not certain I've got the keyboarding skills to be in this discussion and certainly not the spelling skills. HERE GOES. If there is no energy transfer what is the hole in the 30# wet thing? And if there is no energy dump why is that wound on the surface of the wet thing? I am pretty sure most of us understand that the bullit expended it's energy on the surface of the wet thing because of the construction og the bullit. The flip side of this is a bullit constructed that is heavier then needed and then the bullit passes through with a narrow wound channel; less energy is expended. Next would be a bullit contructed/matched to the speed/energy of the cartridge and matched again to the animal. This last little bit is what this is all about matching the bullit to the cartridge to the animal; balance. With 50 entries before this I am certain there maybe other thoughts about all this. This works for me. | |||
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 Nice posting,HC. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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If two identically manufactured projectiles maintain their weight & reach/maintain their optimal mushroom dia. and both exit, after each entering at say 2400 & 2800fps respectivley, what difference is going to be seen in the reaction of the animal? For eg; lets talk a .30cal 180nf going all the way through an Elk. I believe the effect & advantage of increased velocity can often be exaggerated, .. but that is not to say that extra vel./momentum does not help effect a better kill in some circumstances. | |||
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 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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That was very well put! Your entire thread! (Now I have to go look up what "colloquially" means! )But see... I keep on saying, Hot Core is a wise man and has much to offer the shooting world! Ummm... I have a problem with that. See, I am finding that wound channels from different calibers tend to appear almost identical, depending on the actual target, and seem to be more of a function of bullet shape and/or construction. First example would be 22 Hornet and 308 Win. Range - 200m (220yds), target - turkey, wound effects - identical! Well, indistinguishable, anyway. Next example; 303 Brit and 22-250. Target - turkey. Range - 100m (approx). Wound effects - indistinguishable! How do you spell that damn word! Third example; 22 Hornet and 308 Win. Target - ferrel goat. Wound effects - very similar! this would of course be due to bullet speed and construction. The difference here is that the 308 bullet took a whole heap of energy with it on exit, while the hornet bullet did not. A identical 22 hornet bullet failed with a Texas heart shot, although it did bring the critter down. (That was a bad idea and will not be repeated!) Regards 303Guy | |||
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It's about trama to vital organs. I've seen game drop just as fast from a 200gr bullet from a .348 win as from a .257 WBY shot thru the heart/lung area. I think velocity contributes much to the hydro-static shock, but the organ destuction is more important. Instant kills happen more to me with high velocity. I think. b Bullet placement is the most important in my estimation. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet III/ii | |||
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Did you mean to say .348 Win? Some shots seem to drop 'em faster than others. A side through liver shot seem to just flop them over and I higher power side through flops them even faster! (Flopping onto it's side as apposed to flipping onto it's back with legs up!) This appears to be true regardless of bullet energy (or energy transfer). I cant't speak much for bigger bullets on bigger game but I have shot one or two possum with a 22LR and a few rats with an air rifle! Sometimes a possum will need ten shots to make him lie still and sometimes a single shot drops him without a blink! I am getting close to figuring exactly what that magical instant 'happy hunting grounds' shot is. A few hundred more possum and I'll know for sure! Trouble is, possum aint built the same as deer.  P.S. CARNE, I don't know if that was intended to be funny but it sure was! Re-reading vapodog's post, I realize the wisdom of what he is saying!  Regards 303Guy | |||
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Hot Core: Great Post Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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Generally speaking; Kinetic energy dissipation from a projectile can see in the following manner. 1) Plastic deformation; Bullet mushroom, tearing of flesh. 2) Elastic deformation; Possibly hrdrostatic shock (Stretching of flesh) 3) Fracture; Bullet fragmentation /bone fragmentation 4) Heat / Friction; Air friction. You would brobably see all of these in an impact on a animal except the air friction which happens before. The elastic deformation probably plays a larger role in Hi Vel. applications. Very general terms! | |||
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But it is energy dissipation then? What part does momentum play? Is that the property of the bullet that spreads the energy? Both forward in the form of penetration and outward in the form of transfered momentum? It seems to me to be a function of rate of energy transfer plus amount of energy transfer. The flat tipped bullet that expands quickly (if at all) is doing the same damage as a much smaller but faster bullet in a soft target. How would they compare in a much tougher target? Surface cratering like "the wet thing" would be an extreme example. I still haven't found the original thread where they tell what the caliber was. Regards 303Guy | |||
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Surely, this horse has been beat long enough.  | |||
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Experience and anecdotes from archery are helpful here. Deer shot with some or any slight heart damage go down very quickly. A bullet doing basically just tissue damage and doing little besides breaking a rib (quarterbacks play football with a broken rib!) will hardly kill as well as a broadhead because the broadhead could do more damage than the bullet. Breaking a shoulder and still going through the heart/lungs and coming out the other side will make it very hard for the animal to go far. Trying to KNOCK DOWN something like an elk at a distance is not wise to expect unless you are going to chance a spine shot. That's too risky of a shot. When you use SHATTERING force through the ribs/vitals, you can drop an animal pretty well, but if you use a large, tough bullet, it'll expend a lot of energy flying out the other side. Newton's 3rd law: The TOUGHER the animal, the more FORCEFUL it can be hit. Other than that, you'll have to use a more rapidly expanding bullet on lighter game to effect more of the softer tissues more quickly. Like getting a grip in sand: grab more sand! It's really a balance. Consider the nature of the game, construction of the bullet, velocity upon impact, shooting ability, shooting situation (tight wooded cover or wide open or tight brush, etc.) and then you have to carry the dam thing all day, or have Bwana do it, and be able to shoot it. Being a dead-eye with a 308 means nothing if you flinch like a fool when pulling the trigger on a 338 Win Mag. Something to remember: tired arms and weary hunters make lousy shots and a small bullet where it needs to be will out-kill big one where it doesn't. If you exercised your freedom and aren't in jail, thank a liberal. | |||
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http://mechanical-physics.suit...s_collision_problems _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks for that jwp475. Putting it like that makes it seem so simple! If I have a kinetic energy problem - ask you! But seriously, you have clarified a simple fact that it is a tad complicated and that energy and momentum cannot be viewed independantly. Now what I need to do is view the world in more simplified way for a while .... beer = relaxing + feeling mellow!  Hey, what's happened to the beer 'smiley'?  Regards 303Guy | |||
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I would slightly alter that to: Something to remember: tired arms and weary hunters "occasionally" make lousy shots and a Large Diameter, properly constructed, Fast Impact Bullet where it needs to be will out-kill any relatively slow, weenie diameter Bullet. ----- By the way, "Human Wound" studies have ZERO to do with Game. We used to have a guy named "alf" who tried his best to inject Human Wound info into any thread he could find, but it really has nothing at all to do with Game. For 303Guy, here is the Brew -> Good Hunting and clean 1-shot (Adequate Cartridge) Kills. | |||
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would you elaborate as to why? | |||
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Not trying to answer your question Trax. Just pondering. The link you gave (very interesting, by the way - it explains a lot) covers differences in tissue construction. It doesn't cover differences in toughness of the animal. A turkey that flies off with half it's body shot out, still able to do a controlled landing and dies. A bushpig runs of with both back legs shattered from a shotgun. Then there is the proportion of muscle and so on. Some animals just flop over sometimes, others are simply astounding! Remember the pic posted, of a bison that had recoverd from a severe lung shot? It appeared to have four lungs. Regards 303Guy | |||
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Well, yes. There is no doubt about it, it's just that when one has a gun and one wants to shoot an animal, it is useful to be able to assess whether what we have is up to the task, hense the value of this thread. I am slowly gaining field experience but in the meantime, I have to learn from somewhere and that is going to be the advice of experienced folks. A lot of what I am discovering in the field is fitting in with what I have been told by my mentor, my late Uncle who was a Rhodesian gun builder in the 'old days'. He told me the value of penetration and I confirmed that a long time ago. But I concentrated on varmint hunting and that does not reflect game hunting. It might even teach bad habits as the guns used are way overkill and anywhere on the body results in total disintegration of the animal!  But I have written a hunters exam (so I am actually a 'qualified' hunter) and do still remember most of it so I am able to switch from overgun varmint to just adequate game hunting. (It's the actual 'hunting' part I have to get jacked up in!)Regards 303Guy | |||
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Agreed.....but a 16" shell from the USS Wisconsin won't kill any "deader" than a decent hit from a .308 Winchester as long as we're talking about big game animals.....such as deer etc! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Oh, you mean the fabled diff. in tuffness between NA & African game???....  Who else believes the following about Secondary Missile(bone fragments) & Wound Mechanism-Tissue charateristics; does not in some way relate to animals? ( even ones of diff. "Tuffness") Like others Im here to learn, so I look forward to HotCore explaining if he will, how the findings from human wound studies have ZERO value in regards to explaining wounds in game. Secondary Missile- bullet building materials like wadding, belts, bone, dog tags, teeth which are converted to missiles after contacting the primary missile. Upon contact the secondary missile absorbs some of the primary missile’s energy and begins to cause secondary damage when it’s new found energy is imparted into the tissue. Most common secondary missile is bone. 1.Wounding Mechanism-Tissue Characteristics Size of both the temporary and permanent wound tracks is determined not only by the amount of KE deposited into the tissue but also by the density and elasticity of various tissues. Density of the Organ Damage ¯ Elasticity of the Organ ¯ Damage Lung tissue is not dense and is very elastic therefore generally there is little tissue destruction. The Liver is highly dense and not elastic therefore damage to this organ can be extensive. Full hollow organs damage more than empty hollow organs (bladder) Heart that is full at diastole is damaged more than an empty heart at end of systole. | |||
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The differences in the Physical Structure between Game and Humans is significant enough that to draw any conclusion from Human Wound Studies is totally worthless. It results in incorrect and false assumptions concerning Game. Anyone that has Killed and/or Wounded both will understand. Killing and Wounding Humans has no place on a Hunting Board. There are plenty of sudo-sniper sites that would welcome it however. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
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Who said a 308Win used on a Deer is a weenie Cartridge??? Even Bartsche realizes the 308Win "design" is waaaaay far ahead of them ancient old Black Powder thingys for Killing Deer. Come to think of it, I'd rather carry a 308Win than the Black Powder rifle that shoots the 16" shell. | |||
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Hotcore, Re; "Heart that is full at diastole is damaged more than an empty heart at end of systole" " Secondary Missile- bone, which is converted to missiles after contacting the primary missile. Upon contact the secondary missile absorbs some of the primary missile’s energy and begins to cause secondary damage when it’s new found energy is imparted into the tissue. so your saying the effect of and difference in damage between a diastole and systole heart after being hit by a high Vel. bullet, and the effect of "secondary missile bone fragments" only applies to humans/is greatly different in humans? How & Why would a more damaged heart & secondary missile bone fragment(s), have vastly different effect on human than animal, to the extent that findings on humans would become of ZERO value-Totally Worthless , when assessing animal wounds & their effect? I would appreciate if you point me in the direction of the extensive documented scientific studies-evidence, that back that claim. Maybe someone can start by answering the following; 1/ is animal heart,artery,liver,lung and bone(rib & other) any more or less elastic or dense than the human? | |||
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 The only thing you could carry that delivered a 16" shell is a Bettey Crocker pie shell dispense 1/2 full. Did I say that? Oh my> rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Today's weight retaining bullets change all rules with respect to velocity and killing power. Any .270, 7mm-08, .280, 7 X 57, 7 Mag, .308, 30-06 or 300 Mag is going to pass through nearly every time. With these new bullets, bullet dimension can greatly increase frontal area and provide increased hemorrage. If I were buying a rifle for hunting everything and using mono-metal bullets, I would buy a .338 caliber rifle. The .338-06 being about the perfect choice with a Barnes TTSX 210. If using traditional bullets that explode, I would stick with a smaller bore like a 257 Roberts, .250/3000, or a 6mm and load it to maximum velocity. This would ensure complete bullet fragmentation inside the chest cavity with hopes of no pass-through. | |||
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Getting back to the original question, I do believe that higher velocity kills perhaps not faster, but indeed better. Primarily because it flattens trajectory and reduces wind drift. But it is indeed a complicated can of worms how much speed actually helps or hurts in the real world of hunting. I know that I would much rather shoot a deer under fifty yards with a 22 mag than with a 22-250. Why is that? both are shooting approx the same weight bullet. Because obviously the 250 very well may not hold together and end up creating a wound just as 303 showed on the young pronghorn. And yes I do believe that was the entrance wound, I have seen the same thing in person in living color. The 22 mag will hang together and punch through ribs and heart and lungs to deliver a far more predictable result. Although the deer is going to need to most likely be tracked for a ways, but he will be dead as a nail if hit in the right place. On the other hand someone who gets lucky at that range with the 22-250 and actually gets one through the ribs and it explodes inside instead of on the surface and you will never, ever convince them that velocity is not the secret ingrediant. There will be very little if any tracking with heart and lungs and liver all turned into jello. Until they try it again.. But now lets change the equation competely and through all the previous out the window when we introduce proper bullet selection for the velocity window. Change the 22 -250 bullet to a TSX or a partition and every things changes again. Now it is the far better and more predictable killer. Same with a 308 or a 300 ultramag. If you had a grizz bearing down on your mortal ass at 50 feet, what would you rather have in your hands,, a 300 UM shooting a 150 Ballistic tip at 3600fps or a common little unassuming 308 Winchester shooting a 150 Barnes X or partition style of bullet at 2600? Give me the 308Win!! (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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