Can you get 3000 fps with a 165 gr out of a 24 inch barreled 30-06 without excessive pressures?

IMO it's impossible.

2900 is probably out of the question as well.

You can probably do it with 150s though and if it's for game instead of long range paper I would prefer 130 grain TTSX Barnes bullets to cup and core 165s. The 130 Barnes will give you better than 3000. IMO you will get better terminal performance out of a Barnes 130, more smack and more penetration than the 165s. You give up BC and SD which make a difference the further out you get. Under 300 either way I think I would stay with the Barnes. For punching paper a long way out then every yard past 300 you give up a little more with the Barnes.

To get more Vel. You need a longer barrel with a normal load [ Load out of load book]

Useing Winchester 760 or H414 I think you can get 2900fps for sure. I have been using 57.5 grains of IMR 4350 and 165 grain bullets for years and this load shoots plenty flat enough. Kills everything it hits right also.

59 grains of H-4350 in Win cases, lit by Federal 210 primers will get 2900+ in a lot of 24 inch barreled 30-06's. My 26 3/4 inch barreled 30-06 gets 3020 FPS with the above load below 168 grain TSX bullets

I've had a 24" barrel that wouldn't do it, but I've had a 22" that would.

My current 24" tube will.

It's all a matter of how much Reloader 22 you can coax into the case AND using a Fed215M to light it up.

I don't believe it can be done with any hope of avoiding excessive pressure with any other propellant.

People argue it isn't possible but that ignores the more progressive nature of the Reloaded propellants which some people have real trouble with because they can't get them up into their power curve.

BTW, winchester brass.

I find that rem brass is more durable, but win brass
has just a bit more internal volume

THAT makes the difference.

Also fireformed and neck sized brass makes a difference.
Those with really tight chambers need not apply.

AD

In my norwegian reloading manual called "Ladeboken 4" I have one load that might be almost what you want.

Bullet Sierra HPBT 165 grain
COL : 81mm
Use Norma or Lapua brass.
Powder : Vithavuori N-550
Minimum charge 54 grain velocity 2938 fps
Maximum charge 55 grain velocity 2984 fps

You can also use N-160
Min charge 58 grains Max 59 grains (compressed)
velocity in the max charge 2974 fps.

The last one have I tried with no problems.

w/ steyrs SBS rifle and H4350 you may pass 3K.

We've got some Federal High Energy ammo that claims 3000fps with 165gr TBBC bullets, but we haven't chrono'd it yet. I'd say you would be hard pressed to duplicate that at the bench.

copied from Hodgdon's 30-06 data:

165 GR., IMR 4350, 60.0C, 2934'/sec 57,600 PSI

Assuming you're willing to compress a lot of powder and willing to load to strong .270 pressures then it seems reasonable that you might actually make 3,000'/sec in the 30-06 with "reasonable" pressures.

My "very rough" rule of thumb is for each grain added we can expect 2,500 additional PSI and 40'/sec added.....I've not tried this load but if you're careful and work up you have a chance of making it!

no guarantees however!!!

Thanks for the info guys. Really appreciate the thoughts and suggested loads.

Depending on the particular rifle (barrel), bullet, and powder, yes, you may be able to do so.

Nosler's Reloading Guide, 5th Edition, lists a load for their 165/168 bullet using 63 grains of RL 22, Winchester brass, WLR (regular, not magnum) primer, as giving 3000+ f.p.s. from a 24 in. Lilja barrel.

Hey GrayDuck, Are you aware of or familiar with the term "Cumulative Metal Fatigue"?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey GrayDuck, Are you aware of or familiar with the term "Cumulative Metal Fatigue"?

Yup, better off to sell your 30/06 and by a 7mm magnum. It will safely push 160's over 3000 fps.

Nosler thinks so with RL22.

Mine own 06 with 1gr over nosler book max and a fed 215magnum primer just makes 2,800fps. No pressure signs.

It's a pretty warn barrel with a hugely long throat.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey GrayDuck, Are you aware of or familiar with the term "Cumulative Metal Fatigue"?

I am no engineer but I am familiar with the concept. I didn't think this kind of velocity was way out of line (apparently Nosler doesn't think so either according to the load data on their website) so metal fatigue never entered my mind. However, since I didn't know I thought I would try learn from those who do.

Does my lack of knowledge frustrate you?

I think its quite possible to come close.

My load gets 2942:

IMR 4350 57gr
165gr Nosler BT
210M
Lapua case

I really don't get the hand wringing over charge and pressure. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
...Does my lack of knowledge frustrate you?

Hey GrayDuck, No, not at all.

I'm a believer when it comes to SAFE MAX Loads in my Hunting firearms, be it rifles or revolvers. The trick is to STOP dumping in Powder before the continual firing of a Load hammers the rifle into having minute action/bolt fractures.

There are plenty of ways to determine when the SAFE MAX is reached, but using a Chronograph is not one of them. Due to the variations in Cartridge Components and Chamber/Bore dimensions, some barrels are slow (or fast) when compared to others.

Chronographs do not indicate Pressure - never have and never will. They only tell Velocity. So if a person keeps dumping in Powder until some randomly-picked, arbitrary Velocity is reached, they may be Safe or they may be Sorry in the long run.

So no, your knowledge level does not frustrate me at all. Simply trying to warn you about Cumulative Metal Fatigue " IF " you happen to believe it is OK to just dump in Powder until a specific Velocity is reached. It appeared from your question that you(and others) "might" believe that is OK to do.

If you really want 3000fps with a 165gr 30cal Bullet, the 300WinMag, 300Wby, and 300RUM can all be SAFELY Loaded to that level.

Best of luck to you.

I know from my experience with the Nosler Manual, the velocities reported for the 7mag are not the same as what you will chronograph.

Most of the time you will find you are around 100-150fps less than what the manuals publish.

Hot Core, thanks for the response.

I am not one of those guys because at this point I don't reload but I would like to start. However, issues like this are what concern me. The load data tells you one thing but as stated by more than one, that data can't always be trusted. How does a newcomer like me avoid such problems? Is it simply a matter of starting at the minimum levels and working up?

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
...How does a newcomer like me avoid such problems? Is it simply a matter of starting at the minimum levels and working up?

Hey Gray Duck, You are on the right trail by asking if other folks believe it is possible to achieve a specific Velocity. Then you have to try and determine how they decided it was a SAFE Load.

The way to avoid Pressure Problems is to Learn every Pressure Indication Method available, and use as many as possible every time you Develop Loads. I have a thread on the Reloading Board about Pressure Indicators right now. I managed to leave a couple out , but the regulars have been good enough to add them into the thread in their responses.

Over-loading and hot-rodding are sure signs the poster really doesn't understand how a small change in the Pressure could lock-up the firearm, damage the firearm, or worst of all injure the shooter.

Reloading is great, and I'd imagine you would love it. It does consume some time and a bit of money, but it sure is nice to see tiny groups and single-shot Kills due to your own custom made ammo. . There are Tricks to getting great Accuracy and a SAFE MAX Velocity that become obvious as a person gains experience Reloading. Those Tricks are discussed on the Reloading Board all the time and a great place to just read and learn. I still learn Tricks from seasoned reloaders and I've been at it a long time.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

GrayDuck,

If you want to keep all the parts you came into the world with and you want them all to be functional the only way really is to start at the minimum and work it up.

NO TWO RIFLES ARE THE SAME!!! NOT EVEN CONSECUTIVE SERIAL NUMBER OFF THE SAME LINE.

Reloading done right is a process of working backwards from the end result. You decide what group size you need, what terminal performance you need and then you start making that happen.

Most of us have learned that we can make bullets go fast and faster. That does not mean that they go fast or faster and go exactly where we want them, or necessarily do what we want them to do when they get there. There are 30 cal 165s that are wholly inappropriate for shooting animals with, even at 3000+. You have to balance things. Maybe your 165 doing 3000 is possible, but when it hits deer it sheds 1/3 of it's weight. Is that better than a 150 that sheds 15% of it's weight or a Barnes that sheds none? Is a 165 at 3000 but two inches off your point of aim equal to or better than a 150 that's dead on? Is 3000 FPS enough to compensate for the error or is the same bullet at 2800 and dead on better.

If you do your part perfectly, you can probably kill deer every time with as little as a 30 grain bullet moving as slow as 500 FPS. If you want to build in the forgiveness for your imperfection, to be able to do it at longer range, to be able to handle different target presentation, you start there and work back.

With today's modern powders I believe it's possible. Two things are in order: you must be willing to work up loads with powders such as RL22 or N540, and you must be willing to work with 270 Winchester type pressures. If you want to go on an excursion, it's probably best to get tickets for an Alaskan boat tour.

We all know the venerable -06's history and that pressures are held down in deference to the Springfield rifle and Garand's gas system. We also know that suitable rifle powders of that era built pressure faster than they could build velocity, and that powders such as IMR4350 weren't common before the war. The War Department reduced machine gun velocities of the original "ball caliber 30, M1" from 2700f/s to 2640 f/s because they had difficulty maintaining pressure with the powders of that era. If the War Department thought their weapons sufficiently strong in 1926, they probably were.

According to my chronograph, out of a 24 inch Model 70 factory rifle...

165 grain Ballistic Tips and 168 grain Nosler match bullets..

60 grains of H 4350 or 62.5 grains of H 4831SC both run at 3000 fps out of my barrel...brass reloads in excess of 7 times each, with no loose primer pockets..

59 grains of H 4350 is more accurate than 60 grains.. but the 62.5 grains of H 4831SC is very accurate...

that being said, what do you gain out of pushing it past say 2850 to 2900 fps tho?

Just to be slightly facetious (maybe a little more than slightly), my 165gr bullet motors along at 2800fps and slightly less. I've killed several tons of deer (slight exaggeration)with this anemic load so, other than frayed nerves, what is gained by the 200fps?
Without going out to the shop, I can't check any load books except a Lyman I have in the house and it give 2800 or less acrost the board except for a charge of 760 which give slightly over 2900 at the expense of pressure over 58000psi. Sorry, some may think it's kewl but I've been loading a long time and 200fps ain't nearly as important as being able to count to ten without taking my shoes off.

I am with stillbeman.The deer will not know the difference. 2850, 2950 3k? The old standard loads for 180, 165, 150gr bullets are 2750, 2850, 2950. You can beat that by 50-100fps with 270 pressures and modern powders. Deer can't tell. Sometimes it becomes just another chasing after one's tail. Load it where it shoots good and go hunting. "D"

it is funny that some think if you add one grain over a max listed load you will end up as small pieces of wet fertylizer. However if you are just starting to load ammo I submit that you wait a bit till you get some experience before you try loads pushing the upper levels.

ditto Rick.
2900 is very doable in an 06 with a 165, and what does that extra 200fps do for you? nothing much really except keep you from shooting a long action 300savage.
Which does not matter when you are popping whitetails at backyard lot distances.
Go out west, belly down on a big muley across a wide windy canyon with no time to range him and
Then lets talk about the difference.
It is sometimes just enough.

quote:

****"Sorry, some may think it's kewl but I've been loading a long time and 200fps ain't nearly as important as being able to count to ten without taking my shoes off."

Well put roger

That would be pushing the string a bit for sure. I would not do it and see no reason too as it would serve no purpose.

Bucko, you've bellied down acrost a wide and windy canyon from a big mulie on the other side and you haven't time to pull out your little thingy and range him and your other little thingy to dope the wind and so you're expecting your magic bullet and your red-lined cartridge to compensate for that. I've hunted quite a bit on both sides of the big river and they have a name that sort of shot. And it's the same on both sides of the river. It's called a "poke and hope" shot. And most dudes that try a shot like that, when the animal bows up and bounces off, say, "oh well, I guess I missed." and get back in the truck and drive off.

Well thats nice to hear that your so experianced but frankly your full of shit.
Just because it may not be very doable to yourself , you should never judge the rest of the world from your own level of capability, or lack of.

It sounds as if you obviously hang with a bunch of no shooting bastards, I frankly do not.
And to folks who actually do know how to shoot, who understand about bullet drop and wind drift and know what that extra 200 fps and better BC can do for you it is a big deal.

So go back and hang with your "never any reason to shoot past 300" gang and leave the real shooting to those who actually practice at it and understand it.
Because frankly you obviously don't have a clue what is possible.

And if you honestly do not think that you cannot get a 165 traveling 2900 fps in a modern 30-06 with a 24 inch barrel and do it safely then you just don't know much about reloading either.
So piss off poser.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Go out west, belly down on a big muley across a wide windy canyon with no time to range him and
Then lets talk about the difference.

Sure, .270, 130's at 3150.

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
I am not one of those guys because at this point I don't reload but I would like to start. However, issues like this are what concern me.

I am no veteran reloader but have been doing it enough to understand safety issues.

First off, the main reason you want to get into reloading is because of the extra accuracy available and the option to use a premium bullet like a Barnes. These 2 factors can turn a regular caliber like a 30-06 or a 270 into a 1 gun game slayer with exceptional consistency.

Velocity used to be my biggest concern and I developed some very dangerous hot loads at the beggining of my reloading career. This was before I understood shot variables and barrel harmonics.

Reloading isn't like other sports etc. You may sprain an ankle or dislocate a shoulder skiing, but when an accident happens with a high powered firearm, it is usually serious and easily fatal.

The number 1 goal should be accuracy with your chosen hunting bullet. I am a huge fan of the Barnes TSX line of bullets and develop all my loads using those bullets. I am about to develop a 140 grain TSX load using IMR-4350 after my bedding cures a few more days.

I called Barnes and they told me the starting load for the 140 and IMR-4350 is 51 gr's and max is 54.5. So I work from there. I recommend just calling the company and talk to tech support for the bullet you are using. They will have ggod knowledge and you can feel safe sticking to their info.

Out of all the general reloading manuals available, for a beginner, I would recommend the Lyman manual. It has lots of good writing and will show you theory about pressure and the steps taken in actually reloading a cartridge from start to finish.

Barnes Tech support: TSX .277 140 w/IMR-4350:

51.0 - 54.5

What I would then do is load up various rounds starting at 51 then add a bit more powder to each load until I get to 54.5. It would look something like this:

(.270)

#1: 51.0 gr
#2: 51.4 gr
#3: 51.8 gr
#4: 52.2 gr
#5: 52.6 gr
#6: 53.0 gr
#7: 53.4 gr
#8: 53.8 gr
#9: 54.2 gr
10: 54.5 gr

So, I have myself 10 rounds loaded covering the safe limit of the Barnes loading data using my powder(IMR-4350) and my bullet(TSX 140)

Next, go hit the range and shoot them! Yes!

I used the Audette method of incremental loading and I will also use the Audette method to shoot them. This means shooting at 250-300 yards.

Set up a target, and shoot each round. Mark each round as #1, #2, #3, etc. on the target as you shoot. Best is to buy a children's wood crayon set like we used to use in school then just place an X over each hole with a different color. You then have a color code on your data sheet matching each shot.

After all 10 shots, it is now time to study the target and hopefully find a few holes that are close together. These are called cluster's.

If you find some, make notes of which color they are and match them up to each powder charge on your sheet.

I would then go home and load up another 10 loads exactly the same and repeat this test. This means you have shot off 20 rounds so far.

If your loads are consistent, your gun is bedded properly and clean, you didn't shoot to quickly overheating things, and the wind was calm, your 2 seperate sheets and color x's should look very similar. Here it is most important to be shooting perfectly and if you can borrow a super high powered scope for this, all the better. You must have the gun firmly anchored in bags on the bench and must be relaxed and not flinch a single shot.

Once you get your sencond 10 shots finished and they match the first 10, then mark down each hole that is clustered together with others. Here is a fictional example:

#2: 51.8
#5: 52.6
#9: 54.2


You then focus on these 3 loads. I would then load up 5 rounds of each, and see which one produces good groups, hopefully you will have at least 1 that will give you a good group and hopefully it will be #9 giving you the best possible accuracy. This is only imoprtant when shooting .270 or 30-06's because most guys can handle the recoil. Other guys shooting a 338 might secretly be hoping to find a very accurate group at the low end of the spectrum because these loads make them less nervous when shooting, I said less nervous.

Once you have found a good 5 shot group, then you fiddle with seating depth to fine tune even more.

All in all, if you have consistently loaded each cartridge, have a good solid accurized gun and good shooting form; you should be able to find your self a 1 MOA or better load for your gun in about 35-40 shots using this method. Some guys would forget shooting the initial 10 round repetition rounds but I feel they are essential in really showing you what is going to work and what isn't. Firing a duplicate 10 round robin also takes away the "what if" questions from your mind. You know that you have found the only consistent clusters because you repeated the process. A reall good confirmation is when the first 10 round sheet and second 10 round sheet are a good match.

The newest nosler book shows a 3000 FPS load using RL-22.
And zeroed at 200 yards the difference beetween a 2800 MV and a 3000 MV is 3.3 inches.
But even with the 3000 FPS load the drop is over 19 inches.
The .257 weatherby , for comparison drops about 4 to 5 inches less when zeroed at 200.
I zero mine at .250, witch makes a max point blank range of about 3025 if I remember corectly.
...tj3006

Oh my goodness, Bucko, did I touch a nerve? I'll bet you've got some fat coyotes where you hunt. They get that way when they get the whole deer instead of just the gut pile.

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
Can you get 3000 fps with a 165 gr out of a 24 inch barreled 30-06 without excessive pressures?

It may be possible with the right barrel. I tried it with 63 gr of RL 22 with an avg velocity of 2950 fps. Accuracy was not very good.
I’m getting very good accuracy with a max load of IMR4350 and H4350 at about 2800 fps.
I’ll take accuracy over velocity any day.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Oh my goodness, Bucko, did I touch a nerve? I'll bet you've got some fat coyotes where you hunt. They get that way when they get the whole deer instead of just the gut pile.

Like most of what you have had to say this also is bullshit.
Not that it matters really, dinks like yourself are a dime a dozen.
Can find them sitting on their fat asses in any gun store dribbling on and on why they are smarter than all other shooters. Always saying what can't be done, well like the rest you just need to hide and watch

Gunshop buzzards is what we call them, I bet you have a seat with your butt imprint on it in one somewhere.
While I am actually out doing what you say can't be done.
So once again with all the love in the world, piss off poser.