quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:

The .257 weatherby , for comparison drops about 4 to 5 inches less when zeroed at 200.

Sounds like the guy who started this thread already owns a 30-06.

Bucko, now that you've turned yourself out for all to see the total fool you are, have someone read you a ballistics book and see what your 200fps actually gives you in trajectory and wind drift. Whose the poser now, Hot Rocks? ROFLMAO!

Why hell now that you put it that way I can see where I was mistaken.
How silly of me to think that there is any difference between a 300 Sav and an 06..
Or between an 06 and a 300Win..

Why hell with that logic of yours it is obvious that there is not any real difference then either between a 30-30 and a 300 Sav so shoot fire why did we ever invent anything after the 30-30 for petes sake????
Get out and shoot more and stop listening to all your idiot gunstore buzzard buddies.

So yes once again with all the consideration and good feelings in the world,, piss off fool.

You might get 2800 FPS with a 26" barrel.

I have noticed that there are a lot of hot air blowhards from AZ.

Calling me a blowhard because you are too stupid to believe that it is possible to safely achieve 2900 fps in a 24 inch 30-06??

Go play with your dolls and leave the shooting to the men.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I have noticed that there are a lot of hot air blowhards from AZ.

Methinks TX has their fair share as well. Just kidding.

Seriously though, a few years back, John Wooters wrote that he once got 3200 FPS from a 150 gr. bullet from a 24" 30-06 with 24" barrel using Winchester's W-760. He did refuse to give out the load and I've always wondered what his case life was like.
I have an FN mauser that has a 24" barrel and 1 in 12" twist. I never did have the guts to go for Wooter's load, mainly because I don't much care for 150 gr. bullets in the 30-06, but I just might try for that 2900 FPS with a 165 gr. bullet just to see if it can be done. I'm pretty sure I could get that high with a 26" barreled Ruger #1, even with a 1 in 10" twist.
Looking in the latest Speer manual, they show W-760 pushing a 165 gr. bullet to 2800 FPS plus a few FPS with a remington 700 with 22" barrel. If they stayed within SAAMI's specs, then pressures were probably kept around what, 52,000 PSI or thereabouts? The 30-06 like some other rounds is not loaded to it's full potential by the factories or in the laoding manuals due to the older weak guns chambered to the round. That makes me think it would not be all that hard to get 2900 FPS with a 165 gr. bullet in a modern rifle, especially with the slower 1 in 12" twist.
it might be fun to give it a try.
Paul B.

Here is copy/paste data from Hodgdons. Given that one can load most modern bolt actions to the levels the .270 is factory loaded we see several opportunities for improvement.....in some cases we may be compressing a lot of powder but it's certainly doable.

I have edited out the powders that I believe are not the best performers in this case, but every powder listed here has the potential to reach 3,000 fps…..worked up carefully and IMO a magnum primer is a good idea with highly compressed loads. As we see, there are loads listed currently at 2,900 f/s



165 GR. SIE SPBT H4350 .308" 59.0 2938 49,400 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT H414 .308" 56.5 2877 49,700 CUP

165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4350 .308" 60.0C 2934 57,600 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT Winchester 760 .308" 56.5 2877 49,700 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4007 SSC .308" 55.9 2867 58,300 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT H380 .308" 56.5 2892 50,000 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT Varget .308" 50.5 2873 49,700 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4320 .308" 51.2 2869 58,600 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4064 .308" 52.5 2901 58,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR 4895 .308" 52.0 2888 57,200 PSI

My Remington 700 will do 2915 FPS with 60 grains IMR 4350 and 165 grain Hornady. That is with very good accracy also.
Regards, Keith

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Oh my goodness, Bucko, did I touch a nerve? I'll bet you've got some fat coyotes where you hunt. They get that way when they get the whole deer instead of just the gut pile.

Like most of what you have had to say this also is bullshit.
Not that it matters really, dinks like yourself are a dime a dozen.
Can find them sitting on their fat asses in any gun store dribbling on and on why they are smarter than all other shooters. Always saying what can't be done, well like the rest you just need to hide and watch

Gunshop buzzards is what we call them, I bet you have a seat with your butt imprint on it in one somewhere.
While I am actually out doing what you say can't be done.
So once again with all the love in the world, piss off poser.

You sound like an all hatter.

Actually guys, there were several posts from respected posters that suggested 3000fps was doable but the question that kept popping up was "to what advantage"? If your end goal is to say "I did it" that is fine and good but any advantage 3000fps would give you over the easily obtainable 2800fps is moot in a hunting situation.
I think most would agree that absolute reliability trumps 200fps in hunting ammo any time. And a loading that is teetering on a red-line charge is more prone to some sort of failure at a most embarassing moment than a more pedestrian load.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Thanks Bob, unfortunately I am afraid it is useless to talk sense to these children.

Well gee Bucko if you weren't blowing hard then you were wheezing wonderfully over50 fps. I posted a load that gives right at 2900 fps in my 2 groove Springfield barrel. PaulB, can't argue about the number of blowhards in Texas but most aren't as rude as your Bucko.

Rick why don't you simply kiss my ass.
You are the one who started being a smart assed punk in case you have forgotten.

Oh well, another cyberspace bad ass, talking tough with his key board. Keep digging, Bucko. You're getting quite a rep. Why don't you turn your hat around right, pull your pants up and try to act (and talk) like an adult.

I only see one true loading at 3000fps even with all of Barsness' loads adjusted back to the muzzle. Something I never bothered with as I have nothing to prove.
I've never used any XMR 4350 but I've loaded a bunch of IMR and H and I believe his loadings are off the chart. And that's based on my working up loads and using empirical case signs and measurements to determine max loads. At 15', my average showed 57grs of IMR4350 would give me 2800fps (using round figures) and this is for 100's of rounds. With a 22" barrel.
He suggest that an additional 1.5 gr of powder would give you an additional 150fps. That's a lot of gain when you're getting into the diminishing returns end of adding powder. I don't know if it will give you an additional 150fps or not, but I'm pretty sure it will give you a very flat primer and an engraved case head.

You can pucker up and get in line dumbass.
You are a couple cyber princes that think you can run your smart mouths and no one is supposed to oppose it.
Sorry dipshit but that is not happening here, and if you want to make something of it then just get to it.

And the question again dumbass was if he could safely get 2900 with a 165, not 3000.

What I said was that yes he could, and you started running your loose mouth, and like I said if you don't like it when someone does nto take it then get off your fat ass and make something happen.

Beeman, maybe part of his velocity gain comes from the fact that one rifle does have a 24" barrel and is a semi-custom job so who knows if or how much free bore he may have on that rifle.
The FN mauser is a simpler deal though as IIRC is just a restocked J.C. Higgins Model 50. I have a couple of those myself and the one I use most will do an honest 2800 FPS with 180 gr. bullets with no apparent pressure burps. I've corresponded with John Barsness on several occasions and he seems to be one of the few gun writers that doesn't have his head up his rear end. hell! I load some of my guns hotter'n hell myself, esoecially the 7x57 and 30-06. I think one of the things that seems to be forgotten is the like the 7x57, the 30-06 is not loaded to it's full potential which does , IMHO, allow for some leeway.
I suppose the only way to answer whether his loads are safe or not would be to try them (working up of course) in one of my guns. Probably that J.C. Higgins would be the proper choice? In fact, a fast 165 gr. load in my 06 just might be the perfect load for my Kaibab deer hunt this year. It only took me 29 years to draw that coveted tag.
Paul B.

I suggested in a earlier post, Paul, that several folks that regularly post in here and seem quite knowledgeable seemed to feel that the 3000fps was doable. And I have no argument with that. My experiences with the '06 has been that as you approach the red-line shall we say accuracy suffers.
A second point is that with the '06, I've found, since I got a Chrony way back when, you can get to a flattened velocity gain without pressure signs. That is to say, you're adding powder to no real effect. I'll be the first to say, I don't fully understand a whole lot about this since most of my knowledge comes from empirical sources.
My whole point all along however has been that IMO the extra 200fps comes at a greater cost on equipment and nerves while gaining little in real world advantages.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
I suggested in a earlier post, Paul, that several folks that regularly post in here and seem quite knowledgeable seemed to feel that the 3000fps was doable. And I have no argument with that. My experiences with the '06 has been that as you approach the red-line shall we say accuracy suffers.
A second point is that with the '06, I've found, since I got a Chrony way back when, you can get to a flattened velocity gain without pressure signs. That is to say, you're adding powder to no real effect. I'll be the first to say, I don't fully understand a whole lot about this since most of my knowledge comes from empirical sources.
My whole point all along however has been that IMO the extra 200fps comes at a greater cost on equipment and nerves while gaining little in real world advantages.

Lets look one line at a time!

quote:

that the 3000fps was doable

And it is.....and without severe pressures as well....any specific firearm may or may not reach it and stay under the low 60 KSI pressure.

quote:

as you approach the red-line shall we say accuracy suffers.

It may or may not.....it's not a truism in shooting...it might even improve.

quote:

you can get to a flattened velocity gain without pressure signs. That is to say, you're adding powder to no real effect.

I've seen this many times and cannot explain it at all....but again it's gun specific and not at all universal.

quote:

the extra 200fps comes at a greater cost on equipment and nerves while gaining little in real world advantages.

200 fps is a 7% improvement over 2,800.

200 fps is a 10% improvement if we're using a .30-30 at 2,000 fps

10% is 43% greater than 7%....so the improvement is less proportionately as we move up the velocity scale. I call it the laws of limiting returns and its darn true everywhere we go!

the gains of the .300 magnums over the .30-06 are even less of an advantage and in some instances could be argued a negative....specifically if the wrong bullet or bullet construction is used or if the discussion turns to weight of the rifle.

When one actually looks at trajectory or energy at ranges he again sees limiting returns with the velocity gains as the wind resistance is proportional to the square of the velocity. The 200 fps gain may in fact translate to as little as 50 yards of actual range gain and that gain may be at such at distance that the shooter is unable to take advantage of it because of range estimating skills.

I, for one, fully concurr that there comes a time when the gains are not at all worth the additional "cost" of the gain.

Frankly the 200 fps diff is not worth much unless you shoot past 300 yards, a distance that I consider a chip shot for anyone with any skill at all.
At 500 that same 200 fps means about 8 inches less drop and about 2" less wind drift and that is in a slight breeze.

There are folks like myself that this means a bunch, if it does not mean much to you, well there you have it.

GrayDuck,

Below is a QuickLOAD analysis of a 165 NosBT reloaded and fired in a 24" barreled 30-06 gun. According to QL, the '06 can be reloaded with 165 gr. bullets to 3000 fps and more and not exceed 65,000 PSI - remember, the same PSI is used with many more recently introduced calibers to achieve their "superior" performance. A modern well-built, bolt-action rifle should be able to withstand this 65,000 PSI without any difficulty - in fact, such a gun should be able to withstand PSI upto and beyond 150,000 PSI. Metal fatigue might become a factor only after many thousands of rounds have been fired at this PSI. Under normal circumstances, one would use such hot loads only for hunting and thus used uncommonly and reducing any chance of metal fatique. Daily target practice does not require such hot loads. Finally, one can get 66 grs. of MRP or Re22 into a Lapua '06 case but it may take a long funnel tube, tapping, and certainly powder compression, which has never caused any problems in my reloading.

I shoot a '06 Ackley Improved and my favorite load is 69 grs. of MRP. I get 3200 fps with 165 Accubonds and 26" barrel. With a 24" barrel I'd be getting ~3140 fps. The '06 AI and standard '06 are very similar.

Regard, AIU

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring.
Bullet : .308, 165, NOS BalTip 30165
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 115 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type /Charge /Vel. /Pmax
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP /66.5 /3090 /64007
Vihtavuori N560 /66.2 /3076 /65000
Winchester WXR /66.1 /3064 /65000
IMR 7828 SSC /65.3 /3041 /65000
Ramshot Hunter /62.3 /3028 /65000
Alliant Reloder-22 /65.1 /3026 /62153
Winchester 760 /60.3 /3021 /65000
Alliant Reloder-19 /62.9 /3017 /65000
Accurate MAGPRO /68.2 /3014 /61806
Vihtavuori N550 /59.7 /3013 /65000
IMR 4350 /59.1 /3012 /65000
Accurate XMR 4350 /59.7 /3011 /65000
ADI AR 2209 /62.0 /3008 /65000
IMR 4831 /61.4 /3002 /65000
Ramshot BigGame /58.0 /2996 /65000
Hodgdon H4831 SC /65.8 /2992 /65000

Dear AI User:

Thanks for the loading data for the 30-06 pushing the 165 grain bullet. Looks like Reloder 22 and MRP are the winners with lower pressure and still able to push the 165 grain over 3000 fps.

It seems the slight ~2.0-2.5 grain increase in the 30-06 Ackley round versus the standard 30-06 may actually mean something with the slower powders. Your 165 grain, 3200 fps 30-06 Ackley load is quite impressive, and seems to place that cartridge in the magnum category.

Maybe Parker Ackley was right in that the 30-06 AI was worth doing.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris, your hypothesis regarding the '06 AI and slow-burning powders may be true. Earle E. Etter, Sr. published a paper entitled "30-06 improved" in the book "Wildcat Cartridges I & II - Combo Edition (pg 405; Wolfe Publishing Co.; Prescott, AZ; 1992) wherein he shows this to be the case and states "...The 30-06 AI should no longer be the subject of controversy. Modern slow-burning powders and readily available chronographs have changed all that..."

My experience with this cartridge would also support this conclusion, but I believe the standard '06 could benefit from the judicious use of slow burning powders as well.

Regards, AIU

P.S. Re19 is a good choice for the std '06 with 165 gr. bullets. I'd start with it and then try Re22 or better yet MRP.

Dear AI User (sounds like a cool drug!):

I, too, went the Reloder 19 route at first when loading my 7x57 AI. After much experimentation, I found Win-760 (for the 120 grain bullets), IMR-7828 and Reloder 22 (for the 140-175 grain bullets) to really stand out with high velocity and 6-8 reloads even at maximum loads.

I'm going to build a 30-06 AI just to see if it works. Actually, I have a 1909 Argentine already adjusted, and feeding 30-06 AI dummy rounds. So, I'm committed.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:

Looks like Reloder 22 and MRP are the winners with lower pressure and still able to push the 165 grain over 3000 fps.

Yes. I don't think you can get enough Reloader 22 into a regular (not AI) 30-06 case to cause any damage, assuming that the resulting load is being shot in a strong modern bolt action rifle.

Getting 63 grains of RL 22 into a 30-06 case will require the use of a drop tube, or swirling the powder into the case. If you seat a 165 grain bullet above that powder charge, you will have to compress the powder a lot -- according to Nosler it's about 105%.

So filling the 30-06 case to the max with RL 22 and then seating a bullet in that case will mean that for bullets heavier than 165 grains you will have to cut the load -- say about 2 grains (i.e. a max of 61 gr of RL 22) for a 180 grain bullet, and so on -- in order to be able to seat the bullets, even if you are compressing the powder a great deal.

So my conclusion is that I doubt you can get enough RL 22 into a regular 30-06 case and then seat a bullet on that load to create a dangerous overload.

Whether or not doing so is prudent, or whether it produces useful and accurate loads, are different questions.

My own experiance with R-22 in the 30-06 is that the hotter you run it the more accurate it becomes.
The same thing for R-25 but not always so with R-19.

I have shot 65 grains of RL 22 and a 165 grain Hornady in my Remington 700 and in the 22 inch barrel it only produces around 2850 fps. I do think however that my barrel may be a "slow" one and not produce like some that I have read about. I use 64 grains of RL 22 and a 165 Partition and it sure kills elk dead enough to eat.
Regards, Keith

Keith, your barrel may need a faster burning powder. I'd suggest either Re19 or Norma 204 (circa upto 65 or 66 grs., but work up to it). I bet you'd get over 2900 fps without excessive pressure. Regards, AIU

In an article written in Handloader Magazine in late 1973 titled 30-06, Spry Seputarian [spelling] Bob Hagel found that the old Norma 205 by far out produced any powder at that time. Number 2 in velocity was IMR 4350.
Regards, Keith

I made a wrong statement in the entry above. The title of Bob Hagel's article is "Spry Septuagenarian: 30-06". This article is in #43 May-June 1973 Handloader Magazine and is a typical well researched Hagel article.
Regards, Keith

Keith, unfortunately one can't get N205 any longer - the closest apparently being Norma MRP, which may be a bit slower burning. I love MRP in my '06 AI and I'm getting spectacular performance. But, as you know each gun varies a bit. Regards, AIU

I had purchased a new Rem 700 30-06 last year 24" after working up some loads.

55.9gr/IMR-4007/165gr Speer/2848fps published velocity 2867fps

52.5gr/IMR-4064/165gr Speer/2946fps published velocity 2901fps

60gr/IMR-4350/165gr Speer/2940fps published
velocity 2934fps

I didn't go past max published loads from IMR data and since Rem uses the same action in other calibers that allow a SAAMI of 65KPSI I don't think going over max would of been a problem for the new Rem rifle.

Back in the 80's when I got my 35p chronograph I was shooting a Rem 700 with a 22" barrel and with 58gr/IMR-4350 and 165gr bullet was getting 2660fps that same load in the new 700 with 24" barrel gives 2867fps. At 2660fps was appr 200fps slower than data published back then I tried some other powders/150/180gr bullets as I was pretty close to published velocity I gave up on the 165gr bullets in that rifle.

I think in the right combination you could do 3000fps with a 165gr bullet including maybe a new barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
My own experiance with R-22 in the 30-06 is that the hotter you run it the more accurate it becomes.
The same thing for R-25 but not always so with R-19.

Bucko, Your experience with RL22 in the 30-06 mirrors my own experience with that propellant in the 30-06 as well as in the 270win.

Basically if the load isn't accurate you try to either squeeze more RL22 into the cass, use thinner (winchester) brass or use a hotter primer to light it up.

I've come to believe that RL22 (MRP is essentially the SAME propellent) has a "critical" pressure that you must reach before it works well.

DO remember that when discussing "stick" propellants the Norma made Reloader propellants are dual based, and the nitro content brings a LOT of energy to the party, but only fairly late in the combustion cycle.

If you don't light it off hard enough and have resistance against it (I load Nosler 165's into soft contact with the lands to build pressure)
it just doesn't get going...

Even in an "improved" or Gibbs case it simply isn't possible to get too much into a 30-06 case.

It is EASILY possible to not get ENOUGH.

a 165grain Nosler Partition at 3000fps is adequate for anything in North america
EXCEPT the big bears (Grizzly and Polar)

It is my opinion that anyone who firmly believes
that you MUST have a 180gr bullet for Elk and Moose is either firmly holding onto their dick
OR holding too firmly to their wallet and insist that cheap "cup&core" bullets are best.

as for the guy above who says "get a 7mmMag and launch 160's at 3000fps?

Thank you, but I bought my 7mmMag to launch 140's at 3300fps.

Frankly when I bought my first 30-06 my uncles thought I was going hunting for deer that were driving armored vehicles.

Basically the jist was "what's wrong with a 30-30?"

Now a days I see guys packing 300mags to kill PA whitetails.

Those same guys in the woods parking lots and gunshops (and here on AR as well) can only scream invective when I tell them I hunt does with my 223rem varmint rifle.

why is it that loudmouthed internet "experts" come up with terms like "cumulative metal fatigue" when someone suggests loading a 30-06 up a bit from factory pressures in a MODERN action?

Someone please tell me, what magical effect is it that makes my Stainless steel Remington 700 suddenly weaker because the chamber was reamed with a 30-06 reamer instead of a 300win, 300wby 300WSM, 300SAUM, 300RUM reamer?

I really wanna know....

This question is of course entirely rhetorical, as ANY attempt at an answer is a pile of manure in papal robes.


AD

Allan,
I sure have to agree with you about the 165 grain Partition and a case FULL of RL 22. That combination works good for me.
Regards, Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
...why is it that loudmouthed internet "experts" come up with terms like "cumulative metal fatigue" when someone suggests loading a 30-06 up a bit from factory pressures in a MODERN action?...

That would be because some moronic fools like you do not realize all rifles are not created the same.

It is obviously due to your complete lack of first-hand experience not to realize that you have ZERO comprehension about what is completely SAFE in one rifle is an over-load in another rifle of the same caliber.

Nothing tricky, just that (as usual) you don't know what your are blowharding about.

quote:

That would be because some moronic fools like you do not realize all rifles are not created the same.

It is obviously due to your complete lack of first-hand experience not to realize that you have ZERO comprehension about what is completely SAFE in one rifle is an over-load in another rifle of the same caliber.

Nothing tricky, just that (as usual) you don't know what your are blowharding about.

Hot Core, I've been in construction all my life and understand alittle on metal fatigue as to cracks etc and they have a way to test. Could you enlightn us all as to what published test have been done on action and bolt so we can understand you "cumulative metal fatigue" statement.

I read an aritcle once on the Rockwell C reading on a Rem 40x action betwwen 42 and 46 and they use a standard 700 Bolt. Dan Lilja has this article
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

I think as reloaders we all have an understand a weak vs new action and published SAAMI pressure but we also understand a new Rem 700 action in 30-06 is the same action used in other calibers were the SAAMI pressure would be higher than the 30-06.

I'm all for learning and I don't mean to be a wise guy but give us some article etc. I'm sure we all like to see your reloading data for your 30-06 and what rifle used.

I can and have gotten 3000 FPS, but whats the point, I dont' need it and the extra 100 FPS serves no useful purpose, and definately has some drawbacks such as very short brass life, and probably an ocassional loose primer, and your pushing the string a little, and a lot can happen up there, so I am happy with 2800 to 2900 FPS..The game I shoot never complains.

Hey Tom, I'd have to teach you a "Strenght of Materials" Engineering Course to thoroughly explain Cumulative Metal Fatigue. You can either take my word for it, or ask any person you know that has an Engineering Degree.

As I mentioned before, there are some rifles out there that can handle 3000fps with a 165gr Bullet. It depends on the rifle, every component in the Cartridge and the specific Bullet being used. And there are some rifles, Cartridge components and 165gr Bullets that will produce enough Pressure that over time will create Cumulative Metal Fatigue. When it does happen, there may or may not be a Warning that the shooter would recognize as a problem, or it could just let go with the Bolt heading out of the Action at a high Velocity.

I prefer SAFE MAX Loads in my firearms for Hunting, with the emphasis on SAFE. When the Beginners and Rookies ask a question that has the "potential" to create a problem for them, I do try to Warn them about what can happen.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

If this link is still active, it is to a thread on the GunSmith Board which looks like the results of Cumulative Metal Fatigue. Or it could be an inadvertant Over Load, but in either situation, I'd not want to be standing beside the Trigger Yanker when it let go.

No telling what kind of Loads this old Mouser had been subjected to during it's history. That is also a reason I discourage Beginners and Rookies from buying old used firearms where they do not know what kinds of Loads and subsequent Pressures it has been subjected to. You never know when an allan or bucko might have had it.