Lets hear it, out of the box, new issue rifles (unmodified) shot at 100 yards and 300 yards. Surplus ammo only. Which holds the best groups at which yardage? Feel free to rank 'em.

K98 8mm Mauser
M44 Mosin Nagant 7.62 x 54
M1891/30 Mosin Nagant 7.62 x 54
1903 Springfield .30-06
1917 Enfield .30-06
French Mas36 7.5mm
Enfield MK III .303

Swiss K31 not on your list. These rifles have never seen corrosive ammo and the surplus ammo is match quality. By far the best triggers on any military rifle.

Considering that some of the choices were made over a 40 year period, by dozens of manufactures, using various resources, under numerous conditions.... I would venture that any response to your question couldn't possibly be anything more than pure speculation.

Most production military rifles are easily capable of 3 MOA, with hand select specimens approaching the 1 MOA mark. I am sure that every rifle on your list fits within these parameters.

I would also venture to say, that with the exception of Ray, no one on this forum was even alive when these rifles were "out of the box."

One more thing: The K98 is the most accurate.

Based on my experience only the 6.5 Swedes over shadow the 8mm mod 98s. This is a somewhat tainted portrayal; Most of the 6.5 X 55s I've fired had barrels in much better condition as a rule and the ammo was either resent manufacture of high quality( not military) or my own reloads.

Many of the 98s had dark bores and the ammo I've used dated back as far as WWII. I have had some good results with 8mm reloads and have witnessed others with some premo rifles shoot fine groups.

I believe because of the time factor the question as stated ,however, might be impossible to objectively answer. roger

k31!!!!

I haven't used everything on the list, but I can confirm that the Swedes are awful damned accurate. I have a few that are well used and exactly 'as issued', and they'll shoot 1.1" and 1.2" groups consistently with the plain old barleycorn sights, with at least two brands of factory ammo. For an old fart with bifocals, that's the limit of my ability. I have no doubt the guns still have more to give, but my eyes don't.

I have no idea what they'd do scoped, or even with a good set of aperture sights. I don't know how accurate the others on the list are, but the Swedes would be pretty hard to beat.

I think the 6.5 x 55s have the reputation for the most accurate....

However I do have a 1917 Enfield, Winchester Manufactured in 1918 with the original 1918 barrel on it, but it has been sporterized sometimes back in the 1950s....

I also do not have any surplus ammo to shoot in it...

However with ANY handload or factory load I have sent down its barrel, it has been accurate enough to put the average varmint rifle to shame.....

I also have a 1898 production 30/40 Krag in the carbine length ( 5000 produced) with the original barrel on it and it also has been sporterized in the 1950s some....

However with Lyman peep sites and handloaded ammo, it seems to be able to embarrass a lot of varmint rifles also!

And finally I have a 1920 production 6.5 x 55 Mauser sniper rifle.... It certainly lives up to the reputation for the Swede's accuracy reputations!

I love accurate old rifles! A LOT!

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
k31!!!!

What's that supposed to mean? Accuracy is accuracy and the Swiss has it hands down.

I think that all the rifles mentioned were fine for there intended purpose and over a cross section of rifles from the same maker they probably ranged from good to bad with their accuracy I shoot Military rifles in compition and from my observations I would say the M96\M38 Swedes would be No1 there service Ammo is Match grade so they have a good head start over the others I personally have no experience with the K31 but believe them to be very accurate rifles the only 8mm rilfes I have seen shoot really well were contract mausers (Persian's for example) most run of the mill K98 were only ever so so the 303 rifles run from great to shocking if you can find a good one they shoot if you get a bad one well you get a bad one
the Russian Nagants are a surprise they do shoot well although ex mill ammo here is very hard to find (in my neck of the woods at least) the M17 and '03 are great shooters so to the P14 also a good No4 will hold its own against the others and I've seen some excellent shootimg done with No5's (Jungle Carbine)
for whats its worth most of our target shooting events are won with Swedes and Lee Enfields they are also the most common rifles used on our range
just my 2 cents

quote:

Considering that some of the choices were made over a 40 year period, by dozens of manufactures, using various resources, under numerous conditions.... I would venture that any response to your question couldn't possibly be anything more than pure speculation.

In addition, ammunition was produced in even more different places by a wild variety of methods by a wild variety of governments and private contractors, so "issue ammunition" runs from the extremely accurate to the unbelievably poor.......

I'd vote for a high number 03 Springfield (not 03A3) made at the Springfield amoury .

on the whole
1903 or a3 ...

it was NEVER made "under duress" and I haven't seen on yet, that if it's not a crawfish hole for a barrel, wont shoot well

jeffe

quote:

French Mas36 7.5mm

now THERE would be a gun in pristine condition, if it was not dropped into a puddle...


I am not at all certain these were EVER fired!!

jeffe

The one I'd want in my hands in a trench would the the SMLE or #4.

Of that era the 03A3 is the best that I have shot with the orginal WW11 military ball.

The Mauser 98 from that era was not even on the same page. Of course the Springfield has a peep sight.

The 30-40 Krag I had was very accurate. It's a terrible military rifle otherwise.

Probably the three best are not on the list:

1. As noted, the Swedish M96/M38 is excellent. Mine just seems to keep finding ways to delight me. They had quite a reputation during both world wars. The Swedes, bless 'em, decided that about 70,000 of them were surplus, and sold them to the Finns, circa 1939.

2. The Finnish versions of the Russian 7.62x54R. Butt ugly, based on the Russian receiver, but with a good, floated barrel, and a trigger job. The Finns had one sniper, who made a career of picking off Russian invaders at long range--500 confirmed kills. The Finns inflicted casualties on the invading Russians at a 10:1 ratio. I have two of the M39's.

3. Swiss K-31, of course. Never fired one, but they have quite a reputation.

My K98 does 2 1/2" five-shot groups, and my M44 does about 3 1/2", so neither of those are going to bring home the trophy at a benchrest shoot.

K31, Swede..........

I have had the chance to work with some real nice military surplus rifles and I believe all things being equal that the Schmidt-Rubin K-31 using surplus gp-11 ammo trumps all takers. Next in line would be 03a3 and 1917. The Swedes have a great reputation for accuracy but I have never seen one outshoot a good 03a3 or K-31.

Sounds great guys. As far as ammo, I was meaning surplus in good condition for the times. Its like an imaginary shoot off with the best condition rifles with the best condition surplus.


Anyone know where to get an excellent K31?

Disregard, found it on another post..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Savage99:
Of that era the 03A3 is the best that I have shot with the orginal WW11 military ball. In 1957 I aquired a 03a3 pistol grip as a government rject for $15.00. It was rejected because it didn't eject the test round missing blade. Its history was that it had only one test round put through it. This rifle was a four groove in mint condition. Never got it to shoot better than 2" at 100 yds with a 4 power scope. I had at the same time a 1917 that shot much better. I'm sure others have had better results with the 03 but I gave up on it. In fact I had it sporterized by Karl Strebelow in Cleveland Ohio and still was not happy. I gave it to a brother in law who used it than traded it on a .243.

Had an uncle on Guadalcanal that swore by the performance of the 03 mostly because of the sight difference between it and the Garand.

I think there is a lot to be said for the formed rifling on the mod. 98 , however. Nice thread roger

In the late 1950's the DCM sold 03A3's to NRA members. New ones were $20 and refurbished ones were $10 ea. We got one of each and they both had two groove barrels and were outstanding shooters. At the same time I had a WW11 Mauser with matching mumbers. The Springfields not only were far more accurate but faster to operate.

I had a lot of US military ball ammo for the Springfields. Granted it was newer ammo than the Mauser was tested with. Who knows what slave labor made that wartime Mauser ammo.

Alas I don't have any of these rifles now. I have never been attracted to military rifles all that much anyway. Those Springfields are "worth" big bucks now. I traded the two of them for a plain Mauser sporter by Pomeroy. Remember that name?

Another vote for the swiss k31--awsome craftsmanship for the era.

I got one in beach wood and it's a real shooter--gotta find a tiger strip walnut.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Another vote for the swiss k31--awsome craftsmanship for the era.

I guess I'l just have to have J&G mail me one tomorrow. I certainly hope it's as good as you claim. For $84.95 how can I go wrong?

If you buy a lee enfield. go for a No 4 mk II. Most will hold a 9" group at 600m (660 yards) all day with PMP military ball.

The No 4 Mk I's vary as to who made them - from American 2 groove to Indian. Most are good for a 2-3" group at 100m

Also- which military ball? Here we generally have FNM (portuguese made)- non corrosive. Shoots well but no tight groups and PMP - 1960's vintage South African. Corrosive primed and shoots like a dream. The best lots are PMP 67 if you can find it. Our Long range Nationals were won last year with a bloke shooting thant instead of .308. Managed a 13" group at 1000m despite the wind etc using PMP 67 ammo.

Swedish m/96 long rifle and Swiss K 31 carbine.

Carcano

here is an EXCELLENT link to a great site for military rifles.

http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums

I have a pile of M98 Mausers, but the only one is in the top five of my most accurate milsurps. I only have one each of the other type and the top 5 as-issued accuracy are:

1) M1 Garand with hand loads. The sights are really good. This rifle can make an X ring a ragged hole with 10 rounds.

2) 1909 Argentine calvary carbine. Despite a rough bore and the awful Mauser sights It'll still put 10 rounds in three inches.

3) M38 Mosin-Nagant. Good for about 4" groups at 100 yds with a carefully prepared load and using .312 150 Hornady SP. Sights are much better than a Mauser.

4) Swiss K31. Good for about 4" groups, but I haven't done much load work-up. Excellent bore and trigger, decent sights.

5) #4 Mk 1 SMLE. With the flip-up adjustable apeture sight, good for about 4" with good handloads.

Bartsche--hope yours is a good one. Most the k-31's are coming through with really dynamite bores in excellent shape. I got a "handpicked" from one of the distributors a year or two back. The wood was dinged up but the metal was about 95% bluing and the bore was absolutely perfect--shined like a mirror with perfect rifling. All serial numbers matched and I had the original owners tag under the butt plate.
I think I paid $109.00. Graff and Sons has brass (or at least they used to) in 100 bulk for about $28.00 as well as loaded ammo.
There are guys shooting amazing groups with these rifles on the forum that I listed if you decide to look at it. Two years ago I sited my gun in for deer hunting and was able to shoot about a 2" three shot group with open sites right at 12 oclock on my orange dot. This yr I only fired one shot to check it..........it landed at 2" high at 12 oclock--it was my only gun I deemed ready to hunt with one shot this year!!

Graff and Son's don't have brass for the K31 right now. Some sort of problem with the maker. However Coles has loaded hunting rounds in reloadable brass for a good price.

The K31 doesn't count. The Swiss wern't WWII combatants. They were nuetral.

Then the French MAS don't count because being dropped or used to hold a white flag don't count either.

Swedish m/96 long rifle would be my choice, great accuracy and very robust design.

Some of the m/96 are still used in the national matches with a few modifications.

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by DobleTroble:
I have a pile of M98 Mausers, but the only one is in the top five of my most accurate milsurps. I only have one each of the other type and the top 5 as-issued accuracy are:

1) M1 Garand with hand loads. The sights are really good. This rifle can make an X ring a ragged hole with 10 rounds.

2) 1909 Argentine calvary carbine. Despite a rough bore and the awful Mauser sights It'll still put 10 rounds in three inches.

3) M38 Mosin-Nagant. Good for about 4" groups at 100 yds with a carefully prepared load and using .312 150 Hornady SP. Sights are much better than a Mauser.

4) Swiss K31. Good for about 4" groups, but I haven't done much load work-up. Excellent bore and trigger, decent sights.

5) #4 Mk 1 SMLE. With the flip-up adjustable apeture sight, good for about 4" with good handloads.

Two Mausers - one an FN Venezuelan M1924 7X57mm, the other a DWM Argentine M1909 7.65X53mm.

This is the Arrgentine with .308" 200-grain bullets.





This is the Argentine with .308" 165-grain bullets. It doesn't do so well with the Argentine FM 185-grain GI loads I've tried - poor ammo!



This is the Venezuelan 7X57mm with 150-ghrain Nosler BT bullets, 50 grains of IMR 4350, MV 2700 FPS.

All shooting was at 100 meters (110 yards).
Have never even seen any Venezuelan 7X57mm military ammo....

IIRC wasn't the Ross a very accurate rifle also? Not much good in the hands of "trench troops", but highly effective in the hands of trained snipers.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
The K31 doesn't count. The Swiss wern't WWII combatants. They were nuetral.

You are absolutly right So were the Swedes roger

You are right, Bartsche. However, Swedish m/96 rifles did see action in WW II.

Carcano

quote:

Then the French MAS don't count because being dropped or used to hold a white flag don't count either

ROFLMAO!

I second the M1 rifle. In new condition it will shame ANY of the bolt action rifles mentioned here.