quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
You are right, Bartsche. However, Swedish m/96 rifles did see action in WW II.Carcano

This is not an arguement but for my information where were they used and who used them?thanks roger

Finnish VKT and Sako Mosin Nagant M39s are quite accurate as well.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
I second the M1 rifle. In new condition it will shame ANY of the bolt action rifles mentioned here.

Actually, the accuracy standard for the NATIONAL MATCH M1 Garand, as accurized by the Army Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning, was 1.5 MOA,(some may have beat this, but not all of them!!), and this is less than half the standard for plain, issued Garands at around 4 MOA for combat use. I have seen and shot just scads of M1's over the past 55 years, and have never seen a plain GI M1 rifle that was more accurate than an average 03A3 Springfield.

When Ike got to England with the U.S. component of Operation Overlord in 1943, a GI rifle team using M1's held a speed vs accuracy contest with a British team armed with No. 4 Enfields. The Brits won!!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
You are right, Bartsche. However, Swedish m/96 rifles did see action in WW II.Carcano

This is not an arguement but for my information where were they used and who used them?

Swedish volunteer contingent in the Finnish-Russian War 1939-1940. (There also was a small volunteer Swedish air contingent, by the way)

Carcano

El Deguello, the 1.5 MOA NM standard has been surpassed easily by civilian gunsmiths that have the time to devote to each rifle the comes to the shop. The AMU always has a buch of rifles to look after all at the same time. The AMU also does not have the time to tailor ammo for each and every one of their rifles. Not when they shot M1s and not now when they shoot M16s.

That said, go here to see what is possible with a Garand that has been carefully rebuilt to GI (not NM) specs using M2 ball. Other than the aftermarket Krieger barrel (which is still in GI, not NM contour, to confrom to the JC Garand Match rules) every thing on the weapon is still USGI.

That's about 1.5 MOA on the target, and the rifle has not yet received the full NM treatment, nor has it been fed ammo tailored to it and made with match components and techniques.

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carcano91:

Swedish volunteer contingent in the Finnish-Russian War 1939-1940. (There also was a small volunteer Swedish air contingent, by the way)
Carcano

Thank you. Also I would not follow either of the Bushes anywhere and for sure not into hell. roger

quote:

Actually, the accuracy standard for the NATIONAL MATCH M1 Garand, as accurized by the Army Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning, was 1.5 MOA,(some may have beat this, but not all of them!!), and this is less than half the standard for plain, issued Garands at around 4 MOA for combat use. I have seen and shot just scads of M1's over the past 55 years, and have never seen a plain GI M1 rifle that was more accurate than an average 03A3 Springfield.

My 1.5 MOA Garand with good handloads is 4 MOA with LC M2 Ball.

I can guarantee if you take 10 garands and 10 k31 rifles off the shelf as is, you will find the k31 to be prolly on average twice as accurate as an M1. There is just no way, I have 2 k31's that are sub MOA shooters with GP11 swiss surplus ammo TRY THAT WITH ANY M1. if you are gonna tweak the M1 for accuracy lets tweak the K31 that is if it needs any. HP shooter I know how much pride you have for american rifles and marksmen, but don't go up against a rifle that will make you eat some humble crow

My K31's are by far the most accurate rifles I own other than my custom built .300 Win. mag. Don't get me wrong I love my two m1's also but those Swiss rifles just shoot so good.

quote:

Swedish volunteer contingent in the Finnish-Russian War 1939-1940. (There also was a small volunteer Swedish air contingent, by the way)

Carcano

Ah, accurate information at it's best

Finnish cause is ours

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
Ah, accurate information at its best

Your irony is justified. I apologize for not having included at least a hyperlink. Take this:

http://www.svenskafrivilliga.com/

as first installment (website still under construction, but the discussion board is already operational).

The Swedish air volunteers (F 19) are covered here:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/f19-1.htm

And here is an old Gunboards thread about the same topic:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19195𫺨

Contritely,
Carcano

I purchased an old Swedish M96 in 6.5x55 to refinish as a winter project. I was so impressed with the accuracy I now have 3 of them. Boy, are they ever sweethearts. I even bought a Remington Classic in 6.5x55 a few years back so I'd have something to compare them with. For the most part they weren't used in heavy combat so most are in excellent shape. Apparently the Swedish arsenal used to recall them periodically for inspection (results are on the butt plate medallion) so they stayed in great condition. I don't know that other countries did this with their military rifles, but it certainly was a good idea. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Your irony is justified. I apologize for not having included at least a hyperlink.
Contritely,
Carcano

Carcano,
It was not a matter of irony at all, certainly not intended to be a leg biter.

In general not many are aware of this Swedish volunteer contingent.

Cheers
/JOHAN

Carcano

I forgot to post this earlier and perhaps it might be of interest for you http://www.smb.nu/lankar/utlandsk_militarhistoria.asp

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
El Deguello, the 1.5 MOA NM standard has been surpassed easily by civilian gunsmiths that have the time to devote to each rifle the comes to the shop. The AMU always has a buch of rifles to look after all at the same time. The AMU also does not have the time to tailor ammo for each and every one of their rifles. Not when they shot M1s and not now when they shoot M16s.

I have no doubt that everything you have said is 100% correct. However, you are NOT talking about an issue M1 using issue M2 ball ammo!

BTW, that John C. garand rifle is not only lovely to look at, it shoots unbelievably as well!

quote:

Originally posted by DobleTroble:

quote:

Actually, the accuracy standard for the NATIONAL MATCH M1 Garand, as accurized by the Army Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning, was 1.5 MOA,(some may have beat this, but not all of them!!), and this is less than half the standard for plain, issued Garands at around 4 MOA for combat use. I have seen and shot just scads of M1's over the past 55 years, and have never seen a plain GI M1 rifle that was more accurate than an average 03A3 Springfield.

My 1.5 MOA Garand with good handloads is 4 MOA with LC M2 Ball.

I once had an International Harvester M1 that I gave the "National Match" treatment to, following the instructions in the NRA publiccation covering the M1. Using FA NM 59 brass, Federal 210 primers, and the Sierra 168-grain Matchking bullet with 47 grains of IMR 4064, this rifle would put 7 of 8 rounds into a ragged hole about .75" in diameter @ 100 meters, but always threw one out of the group - the last shot! I never was able to overcome this problem. I wonder if it had something to do with the rifle ejecting the empty clip on the last round??

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
El Deguello, the 1.5 MOA NM standard has been surpassed easily by civilian gunsmiths that have the time to devote to each rifle the comes to the shop. The AMU always has a buch of rifles to look after all at the same time. The AMU also does not have the time to tailor ammo for each and every one of their rifles. Not when they shot M1s and not now when they shoot M16s.

I have no doubt that everything you have said is 100% correct. However, you are NOT talking about an issue M1 using issue M2 ball ammo!

I am in the second paragraph of my post.

And if you really want to get technical about it. I have an H&R that was rebuilt in the 60s at Springfield, surplused to the CMP, and fired next by me. In other words, it'a about as issue-ready w/o any special tricks as they come. From the bench it will eaisly hold the X ring at 100 yards using Korean PS headstamp M2 ball. With the issue sights.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I can guarantee if you take 10 garands and 10 k31 rifles off the shelf as is, you will find the k31 to be prolly on average twice as accurate as an M1. There is just no way, I have 2 k31's that are sub MOA shooters with GP11 swiss surplus ammo TRY THAT WITH ANY M1. if you are gonna tweak the M1 for accuracy lets tweak the K31 that is if it needs any. HP shooter I know how much pride you have for american rifles and marksmen, but don't go up against a rifle that will make you eat some humble crow

I can only speak about MY rifle in MY hands. And I will take on any and all comers with it.

If you were closer (I'm in Ohio) I'd gladly arrange for a friendly marksmanship competition at 300 yards. Or longer if you would like.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
El Deguello, the 1.5 MOA NM standard has been surpassed easily by civilian gunsmiths that have the time to devote to each rifle the comes to the shop. The AMU always has a buch of rifles to look after all at the same time. The AMU also does not have the time to tailor ammo for each and every one of their rifles. Not when they shot M1s and not now when they shoot M16s.

I have no doubt that everything you have said is 100% correct. However, you are NOT talking about an issue M1 using issue M2 ball ammo!

I am in the second paragraph of my post.

And if you really want to get technical about it. I have an H&R that was rebuilt in the 60s at Springfield, surplused to the CMP, and fired next by me. In other words, it'a about as issue-ready w/o any special tricks as they come. From the bench it will eaisly hold the X ring at 100 yards using Korean PS headstamp M2 ball. With the issue sights.

I'd say your Springfield M1 rifle is "better than the average bear"!

Of the ones I have shot it would be the Sweede followed closley by the 1903 Springfield.

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
In general not many are aware of this Swedish volunteer contingent.

Well, _might_ it just be felt to be a bit politically incorrect for the cosy climate in the People's Home?
Especially if one also remembers the Swedish volunteers *after* 1941.

Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Especially if one also remembers the Swedish volunteers *after* 1941.

Carcano

You mean those who enlisted for Waffen SS division Viking etc?

To enlist for foreign army is considered a crime in Sweden. From my point of view they all ended up as criminals guilty of wide range of war and crime against humanity. I sincerely hope those "volunteers" who died had a painful and lingering death

Keep in mind these were ideologically convinced Hitler worshippers, many believed in these perverted and deeply inhumane ideals thru rest of their lives. Not to mention how some of the Scandinavian "volunteers" helped prominent Nazi's escape to South America or been active in support the neo Nazi's. How Austria and Germany can allow organisations like HIAG etc. to operate is beyond me.

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Especially if one also remembers the Swedish volunteers *after* 1941.

You mean those who enlisted for Waffen SS division Viking etc?

Yes. Like many others Europeans from West and East, as you know; the Waffen-SS became more international and more landsknechthaft every year.

However, the Swedes could at least not claim that they enlisted under an occupation regime, via persuasion or duress. Some became guilty of war crimes, others didn't. Some kept a very low and silent profile after the war, others were irrepentent. My personal belief is that these young volunteers were a mix of adventurers, misled idealists or hardened ideologists like Hans-Casper Kreuger, Landsknechte and a few rough riders too. But feel free to inform me better.

Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carcano91:
Especially if one also remembers the Swedish volunteers *after* 1941.

You mean those who enlisted for Waffen SS division Viking etc?

Yes. Like many others Europeans from West and East, as you know; the Waffen-SS became more international and more landsknechthaft every year.


I find the discussion between you two to be very enlightening.This is a part of history I knew little of. I was only aware of Finlands activity in WWII from studying the Russian German battles in North West Russia. roger

7.5 x 55 Swiss K-31

Balances well. Sights have good sight picture. Trigger is great - Kinda like a Swiss watch!

Roger:

You should take some time and read about the Russo Finnish war of 1939/40....

It is some of the most intriging combat stories you have ever read! IN 5 months of combat, Finnish losses stood at 25,000 troops.... After the fall of the Iron Curtain, Russia finally admitted its loss in troops in 5 months of combat against the Finns and the Swedish Volunteers at over a million! Finland surrendered after it basically ran out of ammunition and equipment....
Cannons had no groves left in the barrel to stabilize the shells... basically shot out....

Tactics are still taught as textbook perfection at the Army War College to this day.....

I have never read anything more motivational and enlightening as the resourcefulness of the Finns and the support given to them by Sweden in 1939 and 1940.....

France and Britain both promised 50,000 troops each that never showed from the logistical problems of getting them there....

The USA turned a blind eye, after doing little more than political complaining to Russia... then it was dirt swept under the carpet because of our support for Stalin after Russia was attacked by Germany....

Of course no one ever reads about the fact the day that Germany invaded Poland in 1939, the Russian army poured over the Eastern Polish border attacking from the East..... Germany only originally occupied 1/3 of Poland... Russia took over 2/3s of it and declared it as part of the Soviet Union instantly..... Of course history books leave this out, because of Russia later being our "allies"....

Patton was right when he advised Eisenhower that the US forces should not stop on the Elbe River.... His advise was that US Forces should stop when they reached Nome Alaska! He forsaw we were going to be against the Russians!

Another little known fact about the Russo Finnish war of 1939/40 is that many Americans from the Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota area were volunteering to go to Finland and fight the Soviet invasion.... Most were Finnish and Swedish Immigrants or children of Finnish and Swedish immigrants...Sweden thought they would be on the hit list next from Stalin....

If the Finns had no made the fight so costly for the Russians, Stalin would have probably kept on going until he hit the Norwegian coast and made Scandanavia part of Russia ( in his wildest dreams!)....

If one also reads much about the Scandanavian volunteers in the Wehrmacht or the SS units....
there fighting was against the Russians.... many refused to fight against the Bristish and American forces.... Fighting Communism and Russia was a strong motivation, way over the motivation of serving Hitler and the Nazi ideals....

I had the opportunity to speak with a Swedish volunteer in the Viking Division in Canada in 1974 at length.... He stated a lot of the reason he and his comrades joined was to stop Stalin and Russia... They believed that the War between the USA/Britain vs Germany would eventually result in a stalemate and peace would ensue after Russia was defeated... He had been in the Battle of Berlin in 1945 in the Nordland SS division ( If I remember correctly)... Many of those Scandanavian troops were fighting the SS Units that Himmler had ordered to kill Civilians so that they did not fall into the hands of the Russians, as much as they were in combat against the Russians.....

He also indicated that many of the soldiers in his unit refused to be transferred to the Western front to fight the US and British forces, that is why they were in Berlin at the time of the battle of Berlin....

For those that did not support the Nazi ideals and Hitler, they paid a heavy price for their beliefs against Communism and Stalin... This gentleman stated he felt he was defending Sweden before it had ever been attacked by the Soviets by fighting the Russians.... He had also been a volunteer in 1939 in Finland... This was the gentleman that brought the entire conflict to my attention.....

What I have read about it is why I hold ANYTHING Finnish in high esteem....Nothing was ever better than the Finns in defending their home against the Soviets, with exception of the Swedish volunteers that came to their aid!

My salute to all of them! and may God Bless the Finns!

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

French Mas36 7.5mm

now THERE would be a gun in pristine condition, if it was not dropped into a puddle...


I am not at all certain these were EVER fired!!

jeffe

KMA (*)

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I can guarantee if you take 10 garands and 10 k31 rifles off the shelf as is, you will find the k31 to be prolly on average twice as accurate as an M1. There is just no way, I have 2 k31's that are sub MOA shooters with GP11 swiss surplus ammo TRY THAT WITH ANY M1. if you are gonna tweak the M1 for accuracy lets tweak the K31 that is if it needs any. HP shooter I know how much pride you have for american rifles and marksmen, but don't go up against a rifle that will make you eat some humble crow

After 25 years of practice with the Swiss Shooters, K 31 is the best accurate rifle I shoot, followed by the Swedes' 96, French MAS 36, Finnish 1891/30.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Roger:

You should take some time and read about the Russo Finnish war of 1939/40....

My salute to all of them! and may God Bless the Finns!

John, Thanks for sharing that information. I don't know if you know but I am somewhat of a WWII history Buff.Sadly, I can not retain all that information any more. But the good side to that I can load one of my more than 100 video cassetes on WWII and enjoy it as if I am seeing it for the first time.The reruns on TV are the same. roger

As to which rifles were best if one averaged all that were built, I have no idea. I DO have some observations, though...

1. The most accurate I have personally fired was one of the original Ross M 1910 military rifles chambered in .280 Ross. Of course, the vast majority that went even briefly to war were chambered in .303 British, not .280 Ross. That they did not perform well in terms of reliability is a known fact. What is not so well known is that was not because of the action (dspite what is often stated) but because of the British-supplied ammunition, which did not properly fit the Canadians' chambers.

2. The second most accurate I have fired was a Finnish (Sako assembled) Model 28/30 which I still have and which will still shoot sub-MOA with open iron sights and handloads.

3. The third most accurate I have tried is the K-31. I first became aware of these when I was a Master Class full-bore shooter in Canada. At the Palomino Range in Calgary, Alberta, Swiss male citizens below age 65 (even though living in Canada) had to fire annually for "qualification" as part of fulfilling their Swiss citizenship duties while abroad. Their scores with their aperature-equipped K-31's easily matched almost all of our Alberta Provincial Team target shooters with our specially prepared and sighted hi-power bolt action target rifles in .308 caliber.

4. The Canadian Forces (whose range Palomino was), annually hosted a match open to all comers which allowed civilian shooters to use ANY unaltered military rifle. Each of the 5 years I attended that match it was won by various Mausers chambered in 7x57 (And shot by a former Wehrmacht & Legion Estrangere [SP?]member). There were a lot of shooters in these particular matches, AS THE PRISES WERE ALL PAID IN SILVER DOLLARS!

5. I have also owned and shot a variety of M-1 Garands, accurized M-14's, FN-FAL (C1A1), a G-43, Swedish Mausers (Mdls 94, 96, and 38), Argentine M91s, a mint Tokyo Arisaka 38, MAS 36, and a number of various '03s and '03-A3s. Also have shot a couple of Hembrug (Dutch) 6.5 m/m Rimmed Mannlicher military carbines

Virtually all of them were quite accurate when used with correct ammo and properly "regulated".

Even my MAS 1936, with proper european-made ammunition, is a sub-2-MOA shooter, despite its approximately 11-pound trigger pull and 1.5" too short stock.

quote:

This is not an arguement but for my information where were they used and who used them?thanks roger

The Swedes also declared 70,000 of their fine Mausers to be surplus, and sold them to the Finns for a pittance, with long terms. The Finns then used them in combat, and paid their debt in full when they could.

The Finns really did a job. They had to let the Germans have access to one of their seaports, in order to remain viable through the war. So they fought the Russians, inflicting casualties at a 10:1 ratio. Then they kicked the Germans out. Tough bunch. Wouldn't want to be up against them, or the Swedish volunteers.

Don't know if I have the spelling right, but Simo Haya was a Finnish sniper who died recently. He had 500 confirmed Russian kills.

Of course, each country writes their own version of the war, so the illusion here in the US is that we won the war practically single handed, with a little help from everyone else. Fact is, there was plenty of heroism to go around.

For accuracy I find the Swedish M96 mauser in 6.5x55 hard to beat. I got one some years ago to refinish as a winter project and now have 3 of them. The beauty of this rifle is that it wasn't used in a lot of heavy combat so many of them maintained their pristine condition, plus Sweden is one of the few countries that regularly recalled their rifles to an armory for inspection and upgrading. They took darn good care of them, and it's reflected in how they shoot. Just one mans opinion, but I certainly wouldn't part with mine. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

03A3 Springfield

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
Of course, each country writes their own version of the war, so the illusion here in the US is that we won the war practically single handed, with a little help from everyone else. Fact is, there was plenty of heroism to go around.

You got that right. One thing that is rarley spoken of stateside is Russias role in defeating Nazi Germany, it was gargantuan. Can you imagine what might have been without a Stallinigrad or Russian front? All of the Panzer divisions and Luftwaffe that would have been freed up. IMHO breaking his pact with Stalin may have been Hitlers greatest blunder. If he would have focused on bringing England to her knees instead of the caucusus where would we have launched D-day from? The fact is we got lucky on D-day that Hitler chose to act like a dip-shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

French Mas36 7.5mm

now THERE would be a gun in pristine condition, if it was not dropped into a puddle...


I am not at all certain these were EVER fired!!

jeffe

KMA (*)

Why? He's right.

You know, we can all trot out anecdotal evidence after anecdotal evidence, but the only results that matter are those obtained in competition.

Every year the Civilian Marksmanship Program holds its annual John C. Garand Match (for M1 rifles), its Springfield Match (for M1903s), and the Vintage Military Rifle Match (for foregin bolt actions).

The Garand Match is fired the day after the Springfield and VMR matches, which are held concurrently. So its reasonable to expect scores to be comparable. All are fired at 200 yards on the NRA SR target using the following course of fire: 5 shots for sighters and 10 shots for record from the prone position in 15 minutes, 10 shots for record in 70 seconds (80 seconds for Springfield/VMR) standing to prone, and 10 shots for record from the standing position in 10 minutes.

Last years winning scores were as follows:

Wintage Military Rifle Match: 278-4X
Springfield Match: 286-6X
John C. Garand Match: 292-5X

Now, before someone starts up with match modifications, etc., the level of match preparation allowed for these rifles is miniscule, and it's equal across all three matches. The rifles used are about as close as you can get to GI, and the winners are heavily scrutinized.

As you can see, the M1 trumps all comers. And it does so year after year in the arena where it matters: formal competition.

And just how lop sided are the M-1 entries vs entries from around the globe?

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
You know, we can all trot out anecdotal evidence after anecdotal evidence, but the only results that matter are those obtained in competition.

I am sorry, but it is the other way around:

The only results that do *not* matter within the frame of this specific discussion are those from formal competition.

Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
You know, we can all trot out anecdotal evidence after anecdotal evidence, but the only results that matter are those obtained in competition.

I am sorry, but it is the other way around:

The only results that do *not* matter within the frame of this specific discussion are those from formal competition.

Carcano

The question was one about accuracy, not combat effectiveness, quality, artistry, or any other topic.

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
And just how lop sided are the M-1 entries vs entries from around the globe?

The number of entries is irrelevant, because there can only be one high score for each match. But just so you know, there were about 1300 shooters in the Garand Match, and about 700 in the Springfield/VMR Match. More than enough to get a representative sample.